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Ugh, this "strictly better" poo poo is the most absurd goony semantic argument ever. Couldn't one of you have just said "ABU duals aren't strictly better because of interactions with cards that care about basic land types?" Its like one sentence and then we can all stop with the pedantry. I'm scared to look back and see if someone actually took the "Shock isn't strictly worse than Lightning Bolt because of Hitedsugu's Second Rite" thing seriously.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:45
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Samael posted:Loaded question for you guys, so with the new dragons cards, what deck do you think is going to be the deck to beat?
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Mar 25, 2015 17:46
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R/W isn't going to get worse with 2 mana removal. I wouldn't be surprised if that deck drops Chained for Roast and splashes into black, either.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:47
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Trading chat: Why does logic and value go all the gently caress out the window when cards are involved? I'm talking about the thing mentioned before where people have to get EXACT value out of a trade. This scenario actually happened about a week ago, I was trading with a guy I know quite well in the FLGS and he was agonising for about 10 minutes over a $1 difference (about 60p in UK money) in trade value over a bunch of cards, he took about 10 minutes going over my binders again and again to try and find this elusive card to even the trade out while I sat there. 10 minutes later he get up and says "i'm going to the shop, you want anything", I asked him to grab me a can of pop, which is about 60p and ask if he wants any money for it and he says "naaa it's cool mate, it's only a can of pop". I honestly don't understand it, I had a kid doing a trade with me and he pulled up a load of jank 20p-50p rares he wanted on top of the trade, total value about £1.50 and he looked at me like I'd got 3 heads when I told him to take em anyway. I could do with your input on this trade however, I pulled a foil Sarkhan, Unbroken at pre-release it seems to be riding high and I've had a regular offer me 4x Goblin Rabblemaster for it (3xM15 1xBaB), I think I'm going to take it because a) I can think of about 5 decks I want to play with rabblemasters in and I have wanted a set for ages now b) I can't see the price of the Sarkhan holding +$50 for very long at all Is there any reason, given I'll probably never play him, for me to hold on to Sarkhan?
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Mar 25, 2015 17:48
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Abzan wasn't the best deck before rotation. I think it's going to be some version of control with Narset.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:50
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mcmagic posted:Abzan wasn't the best deck before rotation. I think it's going to be some version of control with Narset. I'd really like to hear some kind of justification that U/W control is somehow better than U/B or B/U/G.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:52
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Serperoth posted:Someone is selling a Mono-U Tron deck, asking for 300 euros for it. List is as follows: Semi-beaten, but that's a pretty high price. I have nearly the same list and Deckbox values it at $273, but I also have 2 Chalice, 1 Spellskite and 1 Hurkyl's Recall in my board, which is $70. Competitively the list looks fine, I would have 2 Wurmcoils main-board and 4 Squelch seems high unless you have a lot of Twin around you, and even then Trickbind is better.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:53
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lmao at dudes who can't handle the stress of trading in person. Binder-Grinders, Guys who look up every card, that kid who demands only SCG Price like its an order from heaven, all of those dudes represent wonderful opportunities to make value. You can "win" all of those trades while simultaneously getting a reputation for being a good person to trade with, and that alone is worth its weight in gold. Just make trades happen, even if you're losing some value, especially if its the first time you've traded with that person. Just saying "yes" and making a trade happen does weird things to a room, suddenly people are just more willing to make things work. Don't get annoyed with some dude who tries to win every trade, instead gently caress him over with a smile. Trade him that 30+ dollar mythic you know is going to be poo poo in two years for a pair of some staples you're confident is still going to be 10. You'll win in the long term, and if he's stupid enough to brag about it you'll have more people looking at your binder and less looking at his.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:54
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C-Euro posted:Semi-beaten, but that's a pretty high price. I have nearly the same list and Deckbox values it at $273, but I also have 2 Chalice, 1 Spellskite and 1 Hurkyl's Recall in my board, which is $70. Competitively the list looks fine, I would have 2 Wurmcoils main-board and 4 Squelch seems high unless you have a lot of Twin around you, and even then Trickbind is better. I mostly want the list as a start, so I can deal with bad SB decisions or not, or needing to replace one card or something, thanks for the input. I'll bring it up to him, about how I'm getting a value off DeckStats that I can order it for much less.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:56
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Angry Grimace posted:Ugh, this "strictly better" poo poo is the most absurd goony semantic argument ever. Couldn't one of you have just said "ABU duals aren't strictly better because of interactions with cards that care about basic land types?" Its like one sentence and then we can all stop with the pedantry. I'm scared to look back and see if someone actually took the "Shock isn't strictly worse than Lightning Bolt because of Hitedsugu's Second Rite" thing seriously. The lead pedants made a new thread just for it lol but who knows if it'll even stay there or if it gets enough input to not fall to page 5. Someone did say the watch wolf isn't strictly worse cuz of some dumb enchantment.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:56
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Ciprian Maricon posted:lmao at dudes who can't handle the stress of trading in person. The biggest problem with in-person trading for me is that I rarely actually want anything so someone will look through my binder for poo poo and even if they can find stuff I'm willing to part with, I rarely find something interesting. Anything that's not a standard playable I'll usually give away for free though, simply because my house is full of loving Magic cards.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:58
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Angry Grimace posted:I'd really like to hear some kind of justification that U/W control is somehow better than U/B or B/U/G. Because they have Narset now?
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Mar 25, 2015 17:58
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mcmagic posted:Because they have Narset now? I think you're not understanding - I'd like to hear justification that Narset is good in control, particularly good enough to make up for white removal being trash as gently caress.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:00
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Angry Grimace posted:R/W isn't going to get worse with 2 mana removal. I wouldn't be surprised if that deck drops Chained for Roast and splashes into black, either. mcmagic posted:Abzan wasn't the best deck before rotation. I think it's going to be some version of control with Narset.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:00
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Chill la Chill posted:The lead pedants made a new thread just for it lol but who knows if it'll even stay there or if it gets enough input to not fall to page 5. Someone did say the watch wolf isn't strictly worse cuz of some dumb enchantment. Also one's a cat and the other is a wolf, which have different tribal support. Basically in a game with 14,000 pieces you have to define the limitations of the comparison and the problem is just saying "strictly better" isn't enough definition because it isn't clear if you're saying A vs. B alone or if it's A vs. B in light of C, D, etc.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:02
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Irony Be My Shield posted:There's a crazy new hate card against them though. Dromoka's Command is almost always going to be a ridiculous beating. There's a crazy hate card against every color now, though.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:02
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Also one's a cat and the other is a wolf, which have different tribal support. That's why I said that "strictly better" implies a vacuum, detached of any meta. Yes, it's a very narrow thing and most cards are not comparable at all, which is why "better" is also a good term. X is better than Y in light of <whatever>, but not strictly better.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:06
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Angry Grimace posted:There's a crazy hate card against every color now, though. Meh. The U hate enchantment is kind of crap, actually.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:07
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Angry Grimace posted:I think you're not understanding - I'd like to hear justification that Narset is good in control, particularly good enough to make up for white removal being trash as gently caress. Well those are two different points. While white did get Surge of Righteousness which is going to see play all over the place, you can still play esper and have access to all the black removal too if that's what you want to be doing. As for Narset, I've been playtesting with her a lot in a bunch of different decks and she's amazing. She replaces herself with a card most of the time you play her and is so hard to attack into that most of the time they just ignore her while you sit there drawing a card 2/3 of the time. The times that they do attack into her she's gaining you at least 7 life and drawing a card. Also untapping with her in play and rebounding a Wrath or a Hero's downfall or an Utter End is pretty much just a Time Walk against a lot of decks and Rebounding a Dig later in the game, is just game over. mcmagic fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:07
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Mostly better is a strictly better term than strictly better 
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Mar 25, 2015 18:09
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Angry Grimace posted:The biggest problem with in-person trading for me is that I rarely actually want anything so someone will look through my binder for poo poo and even if they can find stuff I'm willing to part with, I rarely find something interesting. Anything that's not a standard playable I'll usually give away for free though, simply because my house is full of loving Magic cards. Try to identify cards you can use in "lateral moves", when looking at binders don't just look for cards you want/need but identify cards you've had in your binder for a long time that you can trade for other decent cards that you've not had in your binder before/for a while. Think of your trade binder as retail stock. Don't let it get stagnant. In retail just changing the aisle you have certain items in can increase sales because people are weird and crazy and even just the perception of "new" can change how people react to it. I know it sounds retarded but it works. If you're anything like me you probably see the same people a lot. I've had a dude look through my binder and pick out some random poo poo he hadn't seen before and trade me for it. Even though the person I got those cards from was another regular in the shop, and I know for a fact he had seen them in that guys binder the week before. Just seeing them in my binder instead was new enough to make him think "oh yeah, i can use that card for some random thing" Obviously you aren't going to ship your spare Tropical Island just because it's been in your binder for 2 months, but I bet there's a lot of standard/casual fodder you could do that sort of thing with. Try to get a healthy flow of stuff in and out of your binder, even if you're not going to be able to trade the stuff in person, you might be able to get rid of it online for stuff you do want. No reason to give up on a potential trading source and believe me, if you can make yourself a go-to-guy for trading, crazy good trades start coming your way, people start selling you poo poo at buy-list instead of SCG, just cool poo poo happens, its worth it. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:09
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mcmagic posted:Well those are two different points. While white did get Surge of Righteousness which is going to see play all over the place, you can still play esper and have access to all the black removal too. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:15
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Zoness posted:Mostly better is a strictly better term than strictly better different implications 
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Mar 25, 2015 18:17
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Angry Grimace posted:So basically the 60% chance to draw a card and a cute combo with playing certain cards at Sorcery speed (including Delve cards in a deck with literally nothing to enable Delve). I'm highly skeptical this is enough to make up for the fact you no longer have Bile Blight, Drown in Sorrow, Hero's Downfall, Murderous Cut and Thoughtseize. It way too easy to do for it to be called a "cute combo." Narset on 4, End or Crux on 5 is easily doable. You also don't need to enable delve for Dig, you just cast cards.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:18
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mcmagic posted:It way too easy to do for it to be called a "cute combo." Narset on 4, End or Crux on 5 is easily doable. You also don't need to enable delve for Dig, you just cast cards. Esper mana is awful. Every spell you want to cast in Esper is 2 colored mana symbols and you have no triland and fetches as your untapped mana, which are horrible for actual fixing. And the whole, "just tap out for Dig!" thing underscores the problem. You're talking about doing lots and lots of tapping out on your own turn. That isn't gonna fly. U/W in the current format leans pretty heavily on Counterspells. You can't just "cast cards" to enable Delve, its a control deck, you're playing draw-go in a color combo that has basically no reliable spot removal. Serious question: how does this deck you're proposing as the Tier 1 of Tier 1 decks beat RDW? Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:19
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Last time I made a trade at my LGS I was gonna be losing a little value but not enough that I cared (like a dollar) because I was moving value from standard to modern which is always a good idea. The guy pointed this out and I originally wasn't going to care, but instead I grabbed the singleton Murderous Cut he had and just gave it to the guy next to us because he had said he needed a few. Everyone was super surprised!!!
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Mar 25, 2015 18:25
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I think you're overselling how bad the mana is for Esper. You have Urborg, 2 fetch lands and Caves not to mention that Temples are very good for mana fixing and Anticipate is a card.Angry Grimace posted:Serious question: how does this deck you're proposing as the Tier 1 of Tier 1 decks beat RDW? The same way any UB battles RDW. It's not a great matchup but RDW isn't great vs any of the midrange decks in the meta so who knows how much it will even be played. mcmagic fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:27
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mcmagic posted:As for Narset, I've been playtesting with her a lot in a bunch of different decks and she's amazing. She replaces herself with a card most of the time you play her and is so hard to attack into that most of the time they just ignore her while you sit there drawing a card 2/3 of the time. The times that they do attack into her she's gaining you at least 7 life and drawing a card. Also untapping with her in play and rebounding a Wrath or a Hero's downfall or an Utter End is pretty much just a Time Walk against a lot of decks and Rebounding a Dig later in the game, is just game over. What I see Narset being used for is jeskai tokens or a similar deck, maybe even a revamped UW heroic with her providing protection via rebound and her ultimate, getting +1s after scrying. Her in control just seems inherently lacking.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:28
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I believe this wiki is strictly better than all of the discussion in this thread: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Strictly_better
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Mar 25, 2015 18:28
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mcmagic posted:I think you're overselling how bad the mana is for Esper. You have Urborg, 2 fetch lands and Caves not to mention that Temples are very good for mana fixing and Anticipate is a card. UB has Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight though. I guess your plan is to just have Urborg and both of those cards then? Yawgmoth posted:I don't think Narset wants to be in a control deck of any sort. Her +1 is okay for it, but you'd likely get the same value from Anticipate or Ojutai's Command. Her -2 does approximately fuckall for control outside of sorcery speed removal/draw which you likely aren't running a whole helluva lot of. Her -9 isn't going to be winning you any games by itself and it's highly unlikely that your opponent's noncreature spells were doing that much to you anyways. Here's how the logic goes: The last viable U/W deck was control; Narset is U/W; therefore, Narset is a control card. The fact that her actual abilities do gently caress-all in control isn't actually meaningful to that logic. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:29
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mcmagic posted:It way too easy to do for it to be called a "cute combo." Narset on 4, End or Crux on 5 is easily doable. You also don't need to enable delve for Dig, you just cast cards. Your experience has been the opposite of mine. People ignore her and maybe 3 turns after you've played her she's a divination. I liked the latest Jace much more. Regardless, I'm pretty excited to see what the various teams come up with for this pro tour.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:31
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Angry Grimace posted:UB has Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight though. I guess your plan is to just have Urborg and both of those cards then? Combination of those cards and surge of righteousness. I don't think that having BB available by T3 with all the temples and anticipate is all that crazy though.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:34
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mcmagic posted:Combination of those cards and surge of righteousness. I don't think that Having 2 B mana available by T3 with all the temples and anticipate is all that crazy though. You're talking about having double black, Bile Blight, Anticipate and all these lands are untapped. That just sounds like "my plan is to scoop."
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Mar 25, 2015 18:35
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Angry Grimace posted:Yeah, except I play Sultai Control and having double black on T3 in Sultai hasn't been terribly reliable. I haven't played Sultai control but your manabase might not be right if you can't get to BB in a deck with what 16 B sources and Satyr Wayfinders...
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Mar 25, 2015 18:41
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Your experience has been the opposite of mine. People ignore her and maybe 3 turns after you've played her she's a divination.  mcmagic posted:Combination of those cards and surge of righteousness. I don't think that having BB available by T3 with all the temples and anticipate is all that crazy though.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:41
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mcmagic posted:I haven't played Sultai control but your manabase might not be right if you can't get to BB in a deck with what 16 B sources and Satyr Wayfinders... "I haven't played this deck, but I don't like what you're saying so I imagine you're doing it wrong." Yawgmoth posted:I want to know what sort of mana base you would be running for this theoretical esper control standard deck that somehow reliably gets you BB on T3 while still also providing the mana you need for all your other good spells. Like actually really interested. Hint: there isn't outside of running pull playsets of Mana Confluences and pain lands. That deck just scoops to RDW entirely.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:44
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Yawgmoth posted:At the prerelease she was a fog with rebound for me. I'd drop her, +1 (dammit, land), have her get attacked for 5-6, +1 again (son of a bitch, a creature), have her get attacked again for dead. Which was still very valuable because in their efforts to kill Narset I'd get the mana for Deathbringer Regent and/or Ojutai. You're really comparing her in sealed to constructed? She isn't even a first pick in draft but that doesn't mean she's not awesome in a deck that wants her. This is the mana base that Soorani posted for his esper list that I've been using: It's been OK in testing. It's probably right to play another Caves and one less Radiant Fountain. Lands (26) 4 Island 2 Swamp 1 Caves of Koilos 4 Polluted Delta 4 Temple of Deceit 4 Temple of Enlightenment 4 Temple of Silence 2 Radiant Fountain 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
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Mar 25, 2015 18:45
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Yawgmoth posted:At the prerelease she was a fog with rebound for me. I'd drop her, +1 (dammit, land), have her get attacked for 5-6, +1 again (son of a bitch, a creature), have her get attacked again for dead. Which was still very valuable because in their efforts to kill Narset I'd get the mana for Deathbringer Regent and/or Ojutai. I had one guy drop a Narset against me at Pre-release. I just ignored her and killed him instead because the odds of actually hitting a draw with her are basically 0 in Limited. I asked the guy why he was running it afterwards and he said he knew it was gonna be bad but his friends convinced him to do it anyway.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:46
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mcmagic posted:You're really comparing her in sealed to constructed? She isn't even a first pick in draft but that doesn't mean she's not awesome in a deck that wants her. You can't play Radiant Fountain in a three color shard deck in which every relevant spell has two colored mana in its cost.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:47
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Cernunnos posted:I had one guy drop a Narset against me at Pre-release. I just ignored her and killed him instead because the odds of actually hitting a draw with her are basically 0 in Limited. That's why I go to prereleases, honestly. Splash two different colours so that I can play 4 more dragons? Why the gently caress not!
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Mar 25, 2015 18:58
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