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unlimited shrimp posted:I think "SJ enthusiast" more accurately captures the concept of a person who dimly spouts received social justice concepts to signify their solidarity with the tribe, but who hasn't seriously interrogated any of the ideas Yeah that's pretty much the way people claimed they were using SJW, but it turned out to be just for using against people who disagree with you/are left of Anthony Cumia. So basically what I said.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:you were being whiny before one random goon said something mean about whites My concern about the concept of cultural appropriation is mostly based in the idea that I don't see it as being distinct from just general kyriarchy by people with money and power, and also that it seems functionally impossible to do anything about because it relies on people having possession of ideas to the point that they can rightly complain about how other people dress, speak, or sing. Which seems objectionable to me. I mean obviously it doesn't practically affect me being whiter than snow, and functionally ruling the universe as a result, but it's not something I would generally consider appropriate to inflict on others.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:07
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unlimited shrimp posted:I think "SJ enthusiast" more accurately captures the concept of a person who dimly spouts received social justice concepts to signify their solidarity with the tribe, but who hasn't seriously interrogated any of the ideas Or it might just be a lovely made up term much like Social Justice Warrior used to try and discredit people in a conversation. You can attack the argument and not the person if their ideas are so weak. OwlFancier posted:My concern about the concept of cultural appropriation is mostly based in the idea that I don't see it as being distinct from just general kyriarchy by people with money and power, and also that it seems functionally impossible to do anything about because it relies on people having possession of ideas to the point that they can rightly complain about how other people dress, speak, or sing. Oh poo poo, you basically just described one aspect of colonialism!
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Mar 25, 2015 22:09
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Or like 95% of pop country music. This doesn't come about because all off a sudden there were a bunch of suburban country singers and it coalesced into what amounts to a drastic change intone for the genre. It came about on the part of the country music industry, which decided it wanted to give voice, recognition and distribution to the works that had a certain message far removed from the populist, left-leaning work of older country artists who came from lower class rural backgrounds. The idea is " well, it's too popular to ignore so let's coopt it and make it more about individualistic authenticity through personal consumption choices instead of group solidarity." Similarly, see the difference between the message of earlier rap, coming from low class urbanites as a call for awareness and action against conditions of segregated slums and the message of mainstream rap today, after years of industry cherrypicking message to those who celebrate conspicuous consumption. Socially active rap is still alive, however now it competesj in a field swollen with stuff made for play on clear channel radio.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:11
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Rodatose posted:Socially active rap is still alive, however now it competesj in a field swollen with stuff made for play on clear channel radio. You should check out Kendrick Lamar's new album. Yes it is one album, I know. But Kendrick Lamar is one of the top dogs in the rap industry at the moment.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:13
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blackguy32 posted:You should check out Kendrick Lamar's new album. Yes it is one album, I know. But Kendrick Lamar is one of the top dogs in the rap industry at the moment. It's a good album but oh my god the thinkpieces it inspired are embarrassing. You'd think that music journalists had never heard social critique before.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:15
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Nearly all rap is socially conscious.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:17
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I know I personally turn to Migos whenever I want biting, hard hitting social commentary.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:22
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paranoid randroid posted:It's a good album but oh my god the thinkpieces it inspired are embarrassing. You'd think that music journalists had never heard social critique before. I agree, I especially hate how people have interpreted "The Blacker The Berry". I think Kendrick was a little confused when he wrote the ending to that song.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:23
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semper wifi posted:I know I personally turn to Migos whenever I want biting, hard hitting social commentary. I knew I could get one of you guys to bite on that one.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:23
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blackguy32 posted:I agree, I especially hate how people have interpreted "The Blacker The Berry". I think Kendrick was a little confused when he wrote the ending to that song. "How do we approach the Overwhelming Blackness of To Pimp a Butterfly?" iunno, bub, have you considered listening to it with your ear-holes. I find that usually works.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:24
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*casts magic missile at the Overwhelming Blackness*
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Mar 25, 2015 22:29
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paranoid randroid posted:"How do we approach the Overwhelming Blackness of To Pimp a Butterfly?" I actually looked it up and that article is from Slate. What an embarrassing subtitle.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:33
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WoodrowSkillson posted:im so jaded i cannot tel ljokes anymore, but assuming this is not, lol no Uh no this is a real threat to any non-commodified form of culture under neoliberalism, and the cycle of appropriation, use as a meaningless commodity by people with no concern for what the culture and artifacts represent, and ultimate marginalization when the consumer culture tires of its latest fad already happened once--some people actually do remember hair bands and the crash of 1991-92 when most of the musicians making the real thing lost everything, at least in the US. But sure let's misrepresent a culture that is 40 years old as some kind of internet fad.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:53
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paranoid randroid posted:"How do we approach the Overwhelming Blackness of To Pimp a Butterfly?" i hate this gay earth
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Mar 25, 2015 22:56
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But how are you approaching the Overwhelming Gayness of this Earth??
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Mar 25, 2015 22:56
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Zeitgueist posted:Nearly all rap is socially conscious. My statement was socially active, not socially conscious so if that's what you mean I don't agree. Songs that come from the POV of someone with a different habitus as middle-class suburbanite (a lower class urbanite in the case of rap or a lower class ruralite in the case of country) describing their woes (it's hard to get by on low pay of this economically depressed system that is stacked against me, too many people being killed by cops/mine cave-ins, etc) may seem activist to a suburbanite who didn't know these things before and therefore calls it activist for 'raising awareness' (which is a bit self centered if you ask me cuz the suburbanite is not the target audience the author has in mind), but simply describing troubles or a function of the habitus does not make it socially active, ie calling for a solution to social problems through action. If you only meant socially conscious and not socially active, well yeah but that doesn't say much. You might as well say "nearly all lyrical music is conscious" because some indie rocker moaning about how the suburbs they grew up in gave them malaise is showing consciousness of suburbs=ultimately unfulfilling, or anyone singing about how they are going to dance in the bar or club or ice cream social or hootenanny is conscious that by following certain social customs, you can get close to someone and dance and that closedancing feels good. e: The reason such genres get popular in the first place is because they speak to a certain cultural experience that connects with a bunch of people in a way that hasn't been done before. People sing and listen to songs to connect with that message and go, oh, I feel that way too. Unless there's an active instruction following that narrative, then it's just a narrative - you shouldn't mistake something foreign to your own cultural upbringing as more intrinsically insightful than something you are familiar with due to its relative novelty. Rodatose fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 22:57
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How are people defining cultural appropriation – as a neutral term to describe all instances of appropriation from one culture to another? Or as only the forms of appropriation which are disrespectful or fetishistic in some way?
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Mar 25, 2015 23:28
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Rodatose posted:If you only meant socially conscious and not socially active, well yeah but that doesn't say much. You might as well say "nearly all lyrical music is conscious" because some indie rocker moaning about how the suburbs they grew up in gave them malaise is showing consciousness of suburbs=ultimately unfulfilling, or anyone singing about how they are going to dance in the bar or club or ice cream social or hootenanny is conscious that by following certain social customs, you can get close to someone and dance and that closedancing feels good. I meant conscious specifically, and partly I posted that because I knew some dipshit would think I meant social commentary and I could laugh at them. But I meant conscious in the sense that it's hard for any rapper, especially black, to not be somewhat reflective of the community they exist in, perhaps even more so than if you expand it to "all music is socially conscious" because the experience of being black in the USA is such a heavily politicized one in all aspects. Even pop-rap has some lines that you could read into, sometimes.
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Mar 25, 2015 23:32
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Exclamation Marx posted:How are people defining cultural appropriation – as a neutral term to describe all instances of appropriation from one culture to another? Or as only the forms of appropriation which are disrespectful or fetishistic in some way? The basic example is when cultural elements are borrowed by a foreign culture so much that they risk overwriting the original cultural expression, such that the original element no longer belongs to the original culture. This then cheapens and diminishes the original culture to the point that their own cultural identity can be threatened. Appropriation carries a negative connotation, which differentiates it from borrowing or sharing. If I were to get a number tattoo on my arm in the style of a Holocaust victim to demonstrate my feelings of being tortured by society and this was some kind of fad, that is disrespectful and an example of appropriation. If I were to do the same to honor a family member, it's not disrespectful and can be thought of as sharing. There is no clear line when one becomes another, much like there's no threshold by which someone is objectively being an rear end. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 23:32
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Exclamation Marx posted:How are people defining cultural appropriation – as a neutral term to describe all instances of appropriation from one culture to another? Or as only the forms of appropriation which are disrespectful or fetishistic in some way? The more contributive posters articulate it as the former when there is a power imbalance present. The shitposters take a more "when white people do thing I dont like" approach
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Mar 25, 2015 23:35
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Knowing and acknowledging Led Zepplin's artistic influences and being aware of the likelihood that When The Levee Breaks is a hit song because this R&B song was performed by white people, and enjoying said music don't have to be mutually exclusive. quote:Perhaps to avoid introspection and other intellectually rigorous tasks? Reality is extremely complex. I am petty sure Plant and Paige weren't meeting at a shadowy altar planning to get famous off of the musical experimentation of a disadvantaged group, and the people who perused Led Zepplin probably weren't doing so to stick a middle finger at black R&B musicians for not being born white. Zep made music they like and the fans listened to music they like. The problem isn't Zep's success, but examining the societal factors that may have been at play in making these lily-white Brits financially successful at performing a musical style that had previously been performed by financially-hindered black people. Perhaps they were just the first to bring it to the mainstream, though back then I imagine it was because of overt racism specifically excluding many of the artists of the R&B scene. If you want to call that cultural appropriation I probably won't even disagree with you. quote:The problem isn't that you like these things, the problem is that, when asked to question if these things are bad, you lose your loving mind. quote:Jesus Christ man. Reality is extremely complex. What does "Chinese food" even mean to a person like me, from Kentucky? It's a large geographic region that has had numerous societal shifts and realignments over history. And here I am dipping an egg roll in sweet and sour sauce and cracking open a fortune cookie. How much of that is just based on misconception of what a Chinese meal would entail, and how much is based on advertising designed to hit the appeal to the exotic? quote:Your response to the question is to call me a Nazi. That's the problem. You aren't even willing to entertain this question.
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Mar 25, 2015 23:41
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Powercrazy posted:The history of (american) chinese food, no doubt stems from the adaptation of traditional Chinese recipes to american ingredients most likely from chinese immigrants. These days you can still get "authentic" Chinese food, prepared with chinese ingredients and it is much different then the food that is colloquially known as chinese food. What's been appropriated? What's been inappropriately appropriated? Monosodium glutamate, which is Japanese. The Chinese stole that from the Japanese, and put it in their food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0dM7oyXV5g Jakcson fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 23:49
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Its worth noting that a lot of the songs that Led Zeppelin appropriated for their music is different a lot of ways harmonically. Also, a lot of it is folk music originally so even the first guy recording it and claiming authorship is a dubious thing , still they should be compensated in some way if there is enough melodic/harmonic borrowing.
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Mar 25, 2015 23:53
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Appropriation carries a negative connotation, which differentiates it from borrowing or sharing. If I were to get a number tattoo on my arm in the style of a Holocaust victim to demonstrate my feelings of being tortured by society and this was some kind of fad, that is disrespectful and an example of appropriation. If I were to do the same to honor a family member, it's not disrespectful and can be thought of as sharing. I guess I don't see "appropriation" as inherently negative, probably because I'm more used to it being used in the sense of artistic recontextualisation. Is there a formalised name for the non-appropriative kind of borrowing? e: formalised. duh exmarx fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 23:57
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Mar 26, 2015 00:03
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Exclamation Marx posted:I guess I don't see "appropriation" as inherently negative, probably because I'm more used to it being used in the sense of artistic recontextualisation. Is there a formulised name for the non-appropriative kind of borrowing? Someone said cultural diffusion earlier, which might be a better term. idk
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Mar 26, 2015 00:06
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Ha ha! You sure showed those people with traumatic experiences what's what!
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Mar 26, 2015 00:27
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Popular Thug Drink posted:If I were to get a number tattoo on my arm in the style of a Holocaust victim to demonstrate my feelings of being tortured by society and this was some kind of fad, that is disrespectful and an example of appropriation. I can't help but think you're just defining cultural appropriation as a kind of minor faux pas, and if so I guess complaining about that sort of piddly poo poo is what the internet is about, but it seems like the claims getting made about it are grander than that. What's the worst case scenario here? How much damage can cultural appropriation do?
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Mar 26, 2015 00:39
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7c Nickel posted:Ha ha! You sure showed those people with traumatic experiences what's what! You see this one time a person on tumblr used it wrong therefore
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Mar 26, 2015 00:49
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dogcrash truther posted:I can't help but think you're just defining cultural appropriation as a kind of minor faux pas, and if so I guess complaining about that sort of piddly poo poo is what the internet is about, but it seems like the claims getting made about it are grander than that. What's the worst case scenario here? How much damage can cultural appropriation do? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Suu84khNGY
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Mar 26, 2015 01:00
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I guess my problem with traditional ideas about cultural appropriation is that the concept invokes a kind of magical, sacramental order of symbols that doesn't make sense to me. Symbols refer to other symbols, they don't have "authentic meanings" and "inauthentic meanings". When people talk about appropriation, they're trying to reference a real problem (that is, continued exploitation of the powerless people of the world by the powerful ones), but the world of cultural symbols seems like a weird and ineffectual place to fight that battle.
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Mar 26, 2015 01:13
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Why should I care about this while not culturally appropriating? Okay it is apparently bad according to this post but....?
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Mar 26, 2015 01:19
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Exclamation Marx posted:I guess I don't see "appropriation" as inherently negative, probably because I'm more used to it being used in the sense of artistic recontextualisation. Is there a formulised name for the non-appropriative kind of borrowing? Diffusion is the formal term, but you can also use borrowing or sharing dogcrash truther posted:I can't help but think you're just defining cultural appropriation as a kind of minor faux pas, and if so I guess complaining about that sort of piddly poo poo is what the internet is about, but it seems like the claims getting made about it are grander than that. What's the worst case scenario here? How much damage can cultural appropriation do? I don't think there's much complaining ITT, the OP had an honest question and got an honest answer before the whole thing inevitably exploded in a fit of internet identity politics. Cultural appropriation can do some pretty serious damage though - Native American iconography has been heavily borrowed and trampled upon by Euro Americans for centuries. What is this object? What is it for, and what does it signify?  To some people, this object is extremely important and makes a strong statement about who they are and where they stand in their society. I only ask you what this is and what it means because, despite being a recognizable thing which you can associate with a certain culture, practically nobody knows what it is or what it means. It's been mostly severed from its original meaning by people who misused the object. The continued use of the object even becomes an insult, like "We not only removed all significance of this object but we have turned it into a worthless commodity item because we have the power to define what your culture means." It can be difficult to understand the depth of this insult if you're based in a cultural context where we don't invest that much meaning in symbols, and our symbols are hardly ever touched. Just imagine how pissed some American conservatives get when you burn a flag, only imagine that people do that casually to represent how much they support a given athletic team. In the worst case scenario, cultural appropriation can actually erase culture. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 01:53
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Appropriation carries a negative connotation, which differentiates it from borrowing or sharing. If I were to get a number tattoo on my arm in the style of a Holocaust victim to demonstrate my feelings of being tortured by society and this was some kind of fad, that is disrespectful and an example of appropriation. If I were to do the same to honor a family member, it's not disrespectful and can be thought of as sharing. If a goy goes to a deli and orders a pastrami on rye he's basically recapitulating the Holocaust, is something we can definitely all agree on. Unless of course he's also buying a potato knish in remembrance for the victims of the Shoah, in which case he is a second Oskar Schindler. A big flaming stink posted:The more contributive posters articulate it as the former when there is a power imbalance present. We could call it "PTD's Disease". A pathological inability to understand that anthropology and cultural studies exist for reasons beyond giving you a misunderstood buzzword to prove how socially conscious and self-aware you are.
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Mar 26, 2015 02:01
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The Insect Court posted:If a goy goes to a deli and orders a pastrami on rye he's basically recapitulating the Holocaust, is something we can definitely all agree on. Unless of course he's also buying a potato knish in remembrance for the victims of the Shoah, in which case he is a second Oskar Schindler. Oh, word? What are your credentials? Where did you do your undergraduate? How many papers have you published?
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Mar 26, 2015 02:04
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It's pretty easy to make a backhand insult through misuse of symbols. And the problem isn't that the offense is generated, but that it's very easy to not even notice or care. Imagine if they used MLK's face to sell crack.
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Mar 26, 2015 02:04
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Cultural diffusion 50 BC: The Germanic tribes of northern Europe make contact with Greek and Italian traders to the south. They notice that the foreigners can record their own language on scraps of papyrus using a series of symbols. A small number of Germans learn Latin and Greek, and in the process learn how to read and write. They see this writing thing is kind of nifty and, using an old Italic alphabet as a template, create a writing system for the Proto-Germanic language that could be written with local tools and materials (since papyrus was rather uncommon in Germany). This writing system becomes known as the elder fuşark, commonly called "runes" today. Cultural colonization AD 600-1000: Romanized Franks, Gauls, Normans, Lombards, and other peoples sweep across Germany, Scandinavia, and Britain. Considering themselves the inheritors of Roman culture, they view the German cultures as barbarous and destroy German institutions to be replaced with their own. Literate Germanic people are forced to write their own languages in the Christians' Latin alphabet. Most of the old pagan culture is irretrievably lost as the Germans, Anglo-Saxons, and Scandinavians are forcibly, brutally Franconized. Some Franks are amused by Nordic culture and appropriate it, creating fetishized, bastardized versions of Germanic myths and stories, these inform the Frankish understanding of old Germanic culture, which they see more and more as a bloodbath of half-naked berserkers and wrathful gods beheading one another with axes. Eventually even Germans and Scandinavians themselves come to believe these distortions of their own history. Cultural appropriation AD 2000: Affluent Anglo-Saxon adolescents have Sino-Japanese writing tattooed on their arms because they think it's hip and exotic and trendy and they saw (commodified, unrealistic) images of ^_^ glorious Nihon ^_^ on Toonami after school. They don't really care (or even know) what the words being tattooed on their bodies even mean (or even seem to fully understand that they are words and not sigils of coolness). Few take any significant interest in learning the Japanese language beyond the most superficial level and English-speaking society never even comes close to seriously considering adopting Chinese characters for writing English. Some people of Chinese and Japanese descent in Anglophone cultures find this trend strange and rather distasteful, but their concerns are roundly ignored. Popular Thug Drink posted:What is this object? What is it for, and what does it signify? To anyone who doesn't know already, the war bonnet is a ceremonial uniform that indicates that the bearer is one of the most respected leaders of a Plains Indian society. Go for a tour of the southern United States in an ugly mockery of Robert E. Lee's uniform, complete with aluminum sword and plastic medals, and the effect it has on the people who see you is not far off what misuse of the war bonnet is like. Also, see the controversy over the unauthorized wearing or display of American medals, especially the Medal of Honor. Many people take the Medal of Honor very, very, very seriously and the wearing of a Medal of Honor (or worse, an obviously fake Medal of Honor) by someone who hasn't earned it is literally sacrilegious to these people. Now imagine a group of foreigners have conquered the United States, killed 95% of the original white American population, forced many of the rest into open-air ghettos, destroyed the Anglo-American culture and all but exterminated the English language, and for 300 years have abused, misrepresented, degraded, and made mockeries of American national, cultural, and religious symbols such as the Medal of Honor, the flag, the uniforms and likenesses of American war, political, and cultural heroes, the cross, the Bible, holy figures such as Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary, and the Great Seal with total impunity. There is a drug that is massively more potent and more dangerous to Europeans than other ethnic groups, a large portion of white Americans is addicted to this drug to numb the pain of a life of poverty and humiliation, and the foreigners are selling bottles of it with George Washington's face and a cutesy foreign-language version of Washington's name on the side. Native Americans are drat right to be pissed about it. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 02:22
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Woolie Wool posted:There is a drug that is massively more potent and more dangerous to Europeans than other ethnic groups, a large portion of white Americans is addicted to this drug to numb the pain of a life of poverty and humiliation, and the foreigners are selling bottles of it with George Washington's face and a cutesy foreign-language version of Washington's name on the side. Eh, what - are you actually saying that Native Americans are biologically more susceptible to alcohol than people from other races? I thought that was old-fashioned "scientific racism" garbage, most typically followed up with a smug comparison to children and the suggestion that we should keep the demon drink away from the red man for his own good?
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Mar 26, 2015 02:44
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IIRC the variant of the gene that governs the production of alcohol dehydrogenase in Native Americans and certain Asian populations is different from the one in other ethnic groups, and people with this version have much lower alcohol tolerance. E: The NIH have studied it, it seems Native Americans definitely metabolize alcohol differently but probably not because of the ADH gene. National Institutes of Health posted:Native Americans and Alaskan Natives are five times more likely than other ethnicities in the United States to die of alcohol-related causes. Native Americans are predisposed to alcoholism because of differences in the way they metabolize alcohol. In this article, Dr. Cindy L. Ehlers examines studies that test this hypothesis. Individuals can be protected against or predisposed to alcoholism by variations in the enzymes that metabolize alcohol (i.e., alcohol dehydrogenase [ADH] and aldehyde dehydrogenase [ALDH]). Dr. Ehlers examines the frequency with which these variants occur in one particular group of Native Americans, the Southwest California Indians. The findings suggest that it is unlikely that Native Americans carry a genetic variant that predisposes them to alcoholism. Certain variants of ADH and ADLH do have a protective affect against alcoholism in some Native American people; however, these findings do not explain the high incidence of alcoholism in the tribes that were studied.
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Mar 26, 2015 02:49
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