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It's not just smartphones; ubiquitous microcomputers have been important since the late 70s. The first 100% fly-by-wire fighter jet entered service in 1978. Every American fighter since 1978 has been flown by a computer, and incorporate design innovations that require computer control and would make direct human control difficult. For a direct analogy to the Forever War, the F-16's flight computer (and all subsequent fighters) do not carry out control inputs that exceed the aircraft's flight envelope, in contrast to Forever War's dumb mechanical waldo suit that allows lethal control inputs. The F-16's first flight was in 1974. Like I said I'm surprised by how much this bothers me this is since it never bothered me before, but now it's quite jarring. edit: And they just had a long conversation about how they can't reprogram their ship's computer for tactical maneuvers. This must be from the time before standardized operating systems became a thing. And they have to actually monitor damage control and life support with a pair of human eyes looking at a readout in real time. It's funny just how unbelievable I find a future without software monitoring and managing just about every piece of technology.
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Mar 24, 2015 08:00
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Arglebargle III posted:Not to mention the very weird opening of the war with seemingly no coherent strategy or objectives. Lemme tell you about this place called Gallipoli...
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Mar 24, 2015 08:52
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Or Nam, for that matter. Haldeman fought in Nam. Question, did you prefer The Forever War or Starship Troopers? thehomemaster fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 09:54
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Arglebargle III posted:Oh and the very messed up gender attitudes but I understand that's part of the science fiction. For realsies? I thought it was pretty drat progressive. People have got to stop getting taken aback by tech/societal issues in stories written a long time ago.
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Mar 24, 2015 09:57
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Arglebargle III posted:It's not just smartphones; ubiquitous microcomputers have been important since the late 70s. The first 100% fly-by-wire fighter jet entered service in 1978. Every American fighter since 1978 has been flown by a computer, and incorporate design innovations that require computer control and would make direct human control difficult. For a direct analogy to the Forever War, the F-16's flight computer (and all subsequent fighters) do not carry out control inputs that exceed the aircraft's flight envelope, in contrast to Forever War's dumb mechanical waldo suit that allows lethal control inputs. The F-16's first flight was in 1974. All sci-fi looks incredibly dated after about a decade. Something I learned writing my sci-fi novel is that you can't predict the future and hope that it will be even remotely accurate a year or two later (just had a discussion with an early reader about it because I decided not to touch on AR and direct neural implants in a story set in 2114). At some point you have to consider what kind of story you want to write and decide how technology is going to play into that rather than trying to make an accurate prediction of what the future will actually look like. Add to that the desire to make the future somewhat relateable for the people reading the novel when it is written and you necessarily end up with a very conservative estimate regarding technological progress. No one wants to read 150+ pages of characters discussing the advancements in network routing software architecture that happened between the time the book was written and its setting (especially when network routing technology is in its infancy at the time of writing). It gets even worse for things that we haven't even gotten the first clue about. Imagine having to explain to the reader the changes that had to be made in biological classification systems to account for alien species. Plus even the boldest predictions are often wrong. I always imagine a guy in 1914 imagining what 2014 would look like and deciding that, of course, no one uses telephones anymore and the letter has vanished as a form of communication.
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Mar 24, 2015 12:14
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Dryb posted:The whole smartphone thing wasn't in our consciousness 15 years ago much less 40. 
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Mar 24, 2015 13:21
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Yeah it's not really a flaw in the fiction, it's just that my perspective has changed over time I guess. Asimov or Clarke never bothered me with this sort of stuff, although come to think of it both of them were way ahead of the curve on computer technology for 50s and 60s scifi writers. I checked and The Forever War was published the same year the F-16 had its first flight. I guess he didn't think that computers would be miniaturized fast enough to be in control of every system of a powered waldo suit. Also I admire his attempt to take on societal changes, but the world isn't really fleshed out enough to feel real. The world government is dumping like 50% of Earth's economic output, the author's estimate, into a 20 year war (and counting) that shows no signs of ever returning any benefits to the population of Earth. Meanwhile law and order is practically nonexistent and the populous is heavily armed. How do these two states of affairs manage to coexist?  Oh and Earth managed to lose a billion people and then produce 4 billion new people in the space of 20 years.  I think this is one of those "scifi authors don't understand numbers" things because the loss of 16% of the Earth's population is such a colossal, world-shattering catastrophe that it's hard to imagine any society maintaining continuity of government, much less a military expedition, much less an extremely costly one, through such a holocaust. In comparison World War II killed 3% of the world population. The only competition for that 16% figure that I'm aware of is the Mongol Empire, who killed an (inflated) estimate of 12% of world population. (This is based on Chinese census data which is unreliable for a number of reasons.) or the Bronze Age Collapse, whose death toll is unknown.The idea of catastrophic loss of life isn't what's unbelievable, it's the concept of maintaining a massive indefinite military expedition through and after that catastrophe. How does the government compel this ludicrous economic structure in which vast resources are poured into totally unproductive space cruisers? We're told that electricity is rationed on Earth, while the main characters sees 78 star cruisers (running on nuclear engines) around naval headquarters. This suggests a level of state terror and coercion that is totally absent from the novel's account of Earth. Indeed, the population is lawless and heavily armed. Where is the mass disobedience and armed revolt? Presumably the government can't simply bomb Earth's industrial centers from orbit without destroying their means of control... Wow that post got way out of control. I guess it's supposed to be about the Vietnam War and the author didn't think too hard about what losing a billion people would really mean! Then again, maybe in 1974 a billion people dying in the 3rd world didn't seem like it would impact the West as much as it would today. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 13:27
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Mar 24, 2015 14:28
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I feel like this is the perfect opportunity to talk about The Quantum Thief trilogy. I'm almost done with book 2, The Fractal Prince, and I don't think I've ever read a more more beautiful, technical, confusing book. The author doesn't go into much detail about the technology, only about the bare minimum needed to get a grasp on what's going on,and it doesn't seem like the type of book that will be outdated in a decade.
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Mar 24, 2015 14:29
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thehomemaster posted:For realsies? I thought it was pretty drat progressive. Actually it wasn't the changes in gender attitudes, it was the author's clumsy handling of the gender attitudes in the book's opening. I can see the ultra-promiscuity of the military being a natural extrapolation of trends in 1974 (thanks AIDS and obesity epidemics) but the shocking thing was an almost off-handed reference. When the platoon gets back from training, the women are just as dead tired as the men but are required by law (what law? military codes? doesn't say) to service the station crew. The narrator doesn't even contemplate the possibility that the male station crew might care that their partners don't want to have sex. Call me old-fashioned but if you don't want to have sex and you are coerced into sex anyway that's rape. The narrative crosses the line from promiscuity to gang rape without a second glance. This never happens to a male character. Now that I think about it that whole thing was just icky and puerile. Basically "they didn't want to have sex, but they had to, and it was long and involved and athletic and we all watched and cheered them on." There's no dialog, none of the women have any lines, there's zero contemplation of what a dead-tired traumatized soldier might have to say to a POG who wants a long athletic gently caress. No hostility, resentment, nothing resembling a human reaction from people who we've just been told don't want to have sex but have to anyway. I'm kind of embarrassed for the author. And then the narrator is thrown for a loop by homosexual relationships. Totally cool with gang rape but not cool with his mother's girlfriend. (Although that's a whole other  with people turning gay by the billions inside 20 years.)
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 15:19
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Arglebargle III posted:Oh and the very messed up gender attitudes but I understand that's part of the science fiction. It's not an intrinsic part of science fiction - just a product of authors not doing the work to understand gender. The Left Hand of Darkness was written in 1969. Which I'd also say to this: thehomemaster posted:For realsies? I thought it was pretty drat progressive. Haldeman wasn't working in a time before science fiction had interesting things to say about gender. I like Forever War a lot but it's not good at this. Haldeman himself is a cool guy and I had the fortune to hang out with him once. He played the guitar. His wife is incredibly sweet.
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Mar 24, 2015 15:37
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Still not convinced, sounds like PC lark to me. My counterpoint is Lagoon which attempts to include every minority and all opinions of everyone, and it's a complete mess/somewhat boring. Also Arglebargle, I am pretty sure that is not the timeframe.... Edit: read more of your posts, decided you don't really know what you're talking about. thehomemaster fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 17:37
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The Left Hand of Darkness is a really good book. Saying that Forever War is good at one thing and bad at another is hardly political correctness gone mad, it's basic recognition that quality is more complex than 'flawless/poo poo.' It's also a realization Haldeman himself has probably had. Accusing Lagoon of forced diversity strikes me as a bit of a reach. If anything it sounds like it's just drawn from the author's life. Haven't read it yet!
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Mar 24, 2015 17:50
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I remember why Haldeman brought LeGuin to mind! She really liked one of his recent books (which I haven't read either):quote:Camouflage was granted the James Tiptree, Jr. Award, a $1000 prize for "gender-bending fiction," in 2004. One juror, Ursula K. Le Guin, wrote in her decision, "An ageless, sexless entity who can take any form is at first indifferent to gender; as it grows more human, the choice becomes more important to it; it ends up a woman by preference. If gender isn't the central concern of this novel, it's near the center, and the handling of it is skillful, subtle, and finely unpredictable." Another juror, Cecilia Tan, wrote, "Haldeman is a Hemingway scholar, and it shows in the elegance of his minimalist prose in this thought-provoking book. In the best tradition of 'hard' sf, Haldeman mixes scientific speculation with purely human 'what if?' in wondering what would happen if a shape-shifting alien predator became, essentially, human? This book explores the human condition as thoroughly as any literary work, with understanding of gender at the crux of that understanding. For me it was one of the best science fiction books I have read in years." My impression is that's it's a topic Haldeman has always been interested in. I like Forever War a lot, and I think a lot of its baffling gender stuff can probably be read as satirical. The military turning everyone into rapists and the government making everyone gay are pretty easy to connect to Vietnam and the upheaval of the 60s.
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Mar 24, 2015 18:18
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I've seen people complain about the main character's reaction to the various social norms he encounters, but I always saw that as just good writing. This poor guy keeps coming across stranger and stranger iterations of a culture that he used to belong to, and of course some of it is going to seem strange or sit poorly with him at first brush. Just look at how people naturally respond to cultural differences between generations. The narrator even admits that his reaction to everybody being gay is less him being actively bigoted, but just how different it is to what he's used to. Nobody in this discussion has made that complaint, I just wanted to highlight a nice point in the novel that made me think. The whole theme of alienation from his culture as he fights for them in farther and farther off locales is really fascinating to me.
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Mar 24, 2015 20:18
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General Battuta posted:I remember why Haldeman brought LeGuin to mind! She really liked one of his recent books (which I haven't read either): Ah so you do get it.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:15
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ooops
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 00:58
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General Battuta posted:My impression is that's it's a topic Haldeman has always been interested in. I like Forever War a lot, and I think a lot of its baffling gender stuff can probably be read as satirical. The military turning everyone into rapists and the government making everyone gay are pretty easy to connect to Vietnam and the upheaval of the 60s. Well that makes sense. The narrative has left me wondering whether it's Mandela who's sexist or just the time the author was writing in. thehomemaster posted:Also Arglebargle, I am pretty sure that is not the timeframe.... No need to get defensive, "some of the background doesn't make sense 100%“ and "it's satire" can coexist. I got a little carried away with the comments about society. Everything really comes back into focus in the more autobiographical sections about army life. The Earth background is a small but interesting part of the book, I just think it has a few flaws in the details if you pay attention.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:02
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I don't think it's very interesting to argue about whether we 'get it' or 'don't get it', we should probably just talk about the books and what they did. I think Forever War is full of really biting satire (the training at the beginning is great, they're all dying brutally for no reason in the shittiest environment possible) but some of it doesn't feel expertly executed to me, mostly because I think it skips over interesting human reactions. I don't know if that's because of Mandela's POV or authorial missteps.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:17
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I've been looking for some more sci-fi schlock to read. I think I'm in the mood for something more ground-based instead of space battles. To narrow it down, here are things I've already read in the vein I mean (and to make up for me being bad at explaining what I am looking for): Hammer's Slammers by Drake (although I tend to prefer something more infantry-ish). Redliners by Drake is also one I enjoyed. I've read the Prince Roger books, and Huff's Condederation of Valor series. Asprin's Phule's Company was also a good way to fritter away a couple hours. When I was younger I read a bunch of those WH40K Gaunt's Ghosts books. I've read Spots the Space Marine  I've read Starship Troopers but I'm just mentioning that for completion, since that always seemed more ambitious to me than the rest of this nonsense. Any suggestions? I guess I just enjoy reading about a bunch of future soldiers in lovely situations. It's less fun without the sci-fi window dressing. Oh yeah, I get annoyed at spelling mistakes so I'm wary of that new generation of self-published sci-fi authors who think they can be their own editor 
Psykmoe fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 21:09
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You should read John Ringo. In publication order.
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Mar 25, 2015 21:13
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Psykmoe posted:I've been looking for some more sci-fi schlock to read. I think I'm in the mood for something more ground-based instead of space battles. I enjoyed Germline. Here's my post on it: Darth Walrus posted:Gave Germline a go because of the buzz in this thread, and enjoyed it. It was indeed hella dark, but not unrelentingly so - there was (slightly dim, but present) light at the end of the tunnel, and a few moments of decency and humanity to shine the way. The protagonist's plot armour was pretty enormous, but got to the point where it felt like an intentional stylistic choice (not least because of the book's religious elements), and whilst the sexy, tragic all-female Jem'Hadar-alikes were a bit too anime for their own good, it wasn't enough to seriously break the book's tone.
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Mar 25, 2015 21:20
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General Battuta posted:You should read John Ringo. In publication order.
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Mar 25, 2015 21:41
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Armor http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/08867...5HxL&ref=plSrch
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Mar 25, 2015 21:49
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This is such a good goddamn book
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Mar 25, 2015 23:42
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Psykmoe posted:I've been looking for some more sci-fi schlock to read. I think I'm in the mood for something more ground-based instead of space battles. I enjoyed the Starfist series by Sherman though I apparently seem to always enjoy terrible terrible things so YMMV. Also the series never got an ending so heads up.
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Mar 25, 2015 23:51
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Psykmoe posted:I've been looking for some more sci-fi schlock to read. I think I'm in the mood for something more ground-based instead of space battles. My goto recommendation is The Prince.
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Mar 26, 2015 00:01
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Telsa Cola posted:I enjoyed the Starfist series by Sherman though I apparently seem to always enjoy terrible terrible things so YMMV. Also the series never got an ending so heads up. I'd love to see a milsf series with Space Marines where the dominant cultural and institutional influences are the Army or Air Force Security Forces and the United States Marine Corps are just of historical reenactor tryhards or something. Just for a change in scenery. * Scratch that, there is precisely one girl in the Marines. Naturally she's a total psycho bitch. Women, amiright? Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 00:06
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Mars4523 posted:I'd love to see a milsf series with Space Marines where the dominant cultural and institutional influences are the Army or Air Force Security Forces and the United States Marine Corps are just of historical reenactor tryhards or something. Just for a change in scenery. I read one like that when I was younger, but I can't remember the name. When Earth nations started developing serious space-based military forces, US Space Command was put under the US Navy and to free up the funding for a space military force the Marine Corps was relegated to a ceremonial honor guard force that got curb-stomped the first and last time in centuries it was called on to fight.
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Mar 26, 2015 02:58
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm reading The Forever War ... no drone weapons, Doesn't the book describe space combat as being conducted entirely by drones?
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Mar 26, 2015 03:00
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pork never goes bad posted:This is such a good goddamn book ...shame about the horrible Jack Crow section in the middle. Not sure if it was ultimately good or bad Steakley died while writing the sequel.
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Mar 26, 2015 03:58
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Arglebargle III posted:I guess [Haldeman] didn't think that computers would be miniaturized fast enough to be in control of every system of a powered waldo suit. Also it's interesting to read some of Haldeman's short stories, where he brings up the homosexual-normative society and "time dilation results in massive social changes" ideas. quote:Oh and Earth managed to lose a billion people and then produce 4 billion new people in the space of 20 years.
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Mar 26, 2015 07:46
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ulmont posted:...shame about the horrible Jack Crow section in the middle. Not sure if it was ultimately good or bad Steakley died while writing the sequel. Wow. Way to sound like a grade-A dick, man.
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Mar 26, 2015 08:36
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Miss-Bomarc posted:
There still is.
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Mar 26, 2015 14:28
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Miss-Bomarc posted:Back in the Seventies, there was a lot of fear in the intelligentsia about overpopulation. People were confidently predicting that there would be 20 billion humans alive in the year 2000. This concept always makes me immediately think of this perfectly-representative movie from the 70s I remember watching somehow one night on TV when I was a kid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z.P.G.
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Mar 26, 2015 17:44
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Mars4523 posted:Star Fist is bad. Very very bad. In the future there are no girls in the Marines(*), no power armor in the Marines, no combined arms in the Marines, and so on, plus Murica. In this universe, light infantry uber alles, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise (I'm guessing that's what the authors were). And later LSD starts getting involved. Well, Truman once said the USMC had a propaganda apparatus that put the Soviet Union to shame. I can totally see Congress forcing the Air Force (or whoever ends up running the US space fleet) to take Marines on board for "self-protection" because the Marines whined to Congress about it. We are talking about a service who wanted a supersonic stealth fighter that can take off and land vertically so they can operate it from hastily-secured beachheads (in tyool 2015) and got it. At least, that is how I did it in my novel Speaking of which, I am currently looking for advance readers to give me some feedback on it and maybe a review after it is published. If you don't mind reading one of these dreaded ~self-published~ books, give me a shout at robertdreyerhro[at]gmail.com If I had to describe it in a single sentence, it is one of Tom Clancy's saner novels set in the early 22nd century. You have multiple blocks all striving for dominance in the inner solar system, mankind is just starting to think about maybe colonizing Mars while already actively mining asteroids, with a kind of cold war brinkmanship thrown in the mix. Predictably, it all goes wrong at some point and the world has itself a good old fashioned throwdown. Includes, among other things: The Russian and British armies reenacting the Charge of the Light Brigade on the Moon, Germans in tanks named after big cats, a Daring Commando Raid, a man on the run from his past, a woman seeking to right past wrongs, a young man finding his place in the world, a spy of questionable loyalties, orbital bombardment shown from the receiving end, a number of space battles, and a maneuver I like to call The Newtonian Handbrake. Not included are awkward sex scenes, crazy political ramblings, battlecruisers or the discussions of the qualities of their officers. I like to think it is quite good, but then again I'm probably biased.
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Mar 26, 2015 18:06
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ArchangeI posted:Well, Truman once said the USMC had a propaganda apparatus that put the Soviet Union to shame. I can totally see Congress forcing the Air Force (or whoever ends up running the US space fleet) to take Marines on board for "self-protection" because the Marines whined to Congress about it. We are talking about a service who wanted a supersonic stealth fighter that can take off and land vertically so they can operate it from hastily-secured beachheads (in tyool 2015) and got it. I've been reading a bunch of the free self-published poo poo on Amazon so whatever you've written can't be much worse. If it is, I will tell you. And everyone else.
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Mar 26, 2015 18:21
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ArchangeI posted:Well, Truman once said the USMC had a propaganda apparatus that put the Soviet Union to shame. I can totally see Congress forcing the Air Force (or whoever ends up running the US space fleet) to take Marines on board for "self-protection" because the Marines whined to Congress about it. We are talking about a service who wanted a supersonic stealth fighter that can take off and land vertically so they can operate it from hastily-secured beachheads (in tyool 2015) and got it. Link it or distribute this, I want to read it. vvv Monkey related usernames only vvv
Yngwie Mangosteen fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 19:08
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I also want to read that 
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Mar 26, 2015 20:32
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I'd give it a read as well.
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Mar 26, 2015 21:35
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