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lenoon posted:This is a tragedy but hopefully at least some light will come of it - an improvement in attitudes towards mental illness such as your own. Nope:  I've suffered from depression pretty much all my life and have been on the verge of suicide several times. But even in that state I would never think of taking anyone with me. When I'm at the bottom of that pit, I certainly think that I'm personally worthless and unworthy of existing, but that's accompanied by a belief that everyone else is better than me, not that they are as worthless as me. But I guess other people have different experiences. Even so, I find it hard not to think of him as a murderer. And his actions, regardless of his intentions or thoughts, have made life tougher for everyone suffering from mental illness. Now we're basically terrorists-in-waiting, to be regarded with suspicion and screened from holding certain jobs. loving great. We all need that. That's really going to loving help.
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Mar 27, 2015 17:40
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This man suffering from depression really should have had the common courtesy to think of others before offing himself
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Mar 27, 2015 17:42
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AnonSpore posted:This man suffering from depression really should have had the common courtesy to think of others before offing himself
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Mar 27, 2015 17:45
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AnonSpore posted:This man suffering from depression really should have had the common courtesy to think of others before murdering hundreds of people
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Mar 27, 2015 17:47
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It's not just depression, though. Paranoia, personality disorders, hell probably even things like moderate schizophrenia or psychosis can get overlooked because afaik you don't need a psychological evaluation to get certified as a pilot? I could be wrong though. So long as you're not actively having an episode no one would know better. Unrelated: interesting yet somewhat unnerving topic: Folk Religion. Stuff like voodoo, Santeria or general beliefs like demons and evil eyes. It's pretty interesting how there's a lot of things that can be found similar in completely unrelated religions, too.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:02
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Dr. Phillips, the Werther Effect suicide researcher, was my undergraduate research advisor. He has spent decades researching large scale datasets on suicides, including murder-suicides and postpartum baby drowning suicides and school shootings. And yet, all he can tell us when he teaches us about it is how hosed up our culture is when it comes to seeking help, finding human connections and kindness, and long term treatment for the incurable. Dude is a Jew from South Africa and would rather hang out where you can get machete murdered than in Connecticut with our "horrible Protestant values".
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Mar 27, 2015 18:06
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DandyLion posted:Every time I hear of one of these type of cases I descend through a kind of Kubler-Ross ladder of loss until eventually settling on the fact that the most worthwhile energy is spent figuring out how to recognize who needs help and seriously analyze our cultures' priorities and stigma's concerning depressions and related illnesses. This is absolutely true and I admit went a little overboard with the rhetoric. lenoon posted:If he'd sat down and done all of that, with a mental illness like depression then he's a victim as much as anyone else. Someone who plans out a suicide, acts it out or tries to, is not making rational decisions that can be judged as you have done here. I understand what you're saying but where do you draw the line on that? You could argue that pretty much everyone who commits large-scale atrocities like that are bound by their own mental deficiencies. Why is a psychopath or sociopath not considered in the same light? Isn't it generally accepted that they're no more in control of their actions as a depressive suicidal? I think it's a little strange to absolve someone of their crimes against humanity because they happened to plan to wipe themselves out as well. lenoon posted:Would you say "a revolting embarrassment" if the pilot had a heart attack, or an embolism or some other virtually invisible disease that killed him in the cockpit and caused the plane to crash? No. To be completely fair, and I should have noted this when I wrote that, I was actually referring to the likes of PAL Flight 773 or PSA Flight 1771 and not the most recent incident. But furthermore, what excuses something like that while people like Elliot Rodger are condemned as the monsters they are? Just off the top of my head, what about the Aurora shootings? Or Newtown? They're different incidents but I'm pretty sure they fall under the category of mentally disturbed. You can understand something and still condemn it as despicable. The fact of the matter is, a shitload of people died horribly and in absolute terror because... well, I don't know why and it would be stupid of me to speculate, but if the end game was to kill himself he definitely went for the extra points. neoon posted:Come on man. I'm really sorry about your great uncle, but it might do you good for your grief to read up about why suicidal ideations happen, why they peak and fall away and why suicide by pilot and by car happens. We are fragile fragile apes with a brain that often can't handle itself well. Have some sympathy for people with mental illnesses, not least because you could develop one yourself. My great uncle put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. He didn't wait until he was in traffic, or until there were others around him to take down with him. This guy did. That's the difference. You can't just throw your hands up in the air and yell "DEPRESSED!" to justify that. Again, though you may disagree from what you've gleaned from my post, I really do have a ton of sympathy for people going through those kinds of feelings. But when you go about it by creating as much carnage as humanly possible, no, I'm not going to think overly hard on the person who caused it. EDIT: I would be more than happy to shut up and end this derail if that's what the thread wants. I really wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers, honest! NiceGuy has a new favorite as of 18:19 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 18:11
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Nightmare Zone posted:It's not just depression, though. Paranoia, personality disorders, hell probably even things like moderate schizophrenia or psychosis can get overlooked because afaik you don't need a psychological evaluation to get certified as a pilot? I could be wrong though. So long as you're not actively having an episode no one would know better. I don't know if you have to do evaluations, but in order to get a medical certificate from the FAA (which this pilot had) you have to be cleared of psychological problems and disorders. NiceGuy posted:My great uncle put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. He didn't wait until he was in traffic, or until there were others around him to take down with him. This guy did. That's the difference. You can't just throw your hands up in the air and yell "DEPRESSED!" to justify that. The problem here is you're talking about suicide as though it's always this well planned out methodical thing when in fact the vast majority of the time it's a very impulsive spur of the moment act. That's why things like suicide barriers on bridges are so effective at preventing deaths overall (rather than people killing themselves elsewhere). It's entirely possible this guy didn't plan this out step by step in advance but just decided to go for it when he was alone in the cockpit. But hey who cares let's just simplistically paint the guy as a monster and not worry about the details. 
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Mar 27, 2015 18:24
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Kimmalah posted:But hey who cares let's just simplistically paint the guy as a monster and not worry about the details. Nobody is doing that.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:27
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Kimmalah posted:The problem here is you're talking about suicide as though it's always this well planned out methodical thing when in fact the vast majority of the time it's a very impulsive spur of the moment act. That's why things like suicide barriers on bridges are so effective at preventing deaths overall (rather than people killing themselves elsewhere). It's entirely possible this guy didn't plan this out step by step in advance but just decided to go for it when he was alone in the cockpit. This is a fair point, however quote:But hey who cares let's just simplistically paint the guy as a monster and not worry about the details. This is loving stupid. Whatever the circumstances, the guy killed 130+ people and it wasn't an accident. People have the right to be upset about that.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:29
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NiceGuy posted:
I remember this kind of issue coming up in the context of Jeffrey Dahmer some months back, probably in this thread. Having sympathy for someone who had a severe mental illness isn't the same as excusing their actions, which is an idea that some people seem to have a problem with. So while I agree with you that people like Elliot Rodger or Breznik should face the consequences for what they did, I also believe that's possible without "condemning them as the monsters they are". When you take that attitude towards someone(or a group of people), you are closing off the opportunity to learn about them and maybe prevent similar tragedies from happening in the future.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:29
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Kimmalah posted:I don't know if you have to do evaluations, but in order to get a medical certificate from the FAA (which this pilot had) you have to be cleared of psychological problems and disorders. He murdered 130 people.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:47
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Remember that he locked the other pilot out of the cockpit before flying the plane into the ground, if it was an aneurysm or something the passengers would have survived. Someone killing themselves is terrible and sad, but I can't pity them when they take down others with them; that's where it becomes murder.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:47
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Mocking Bird posted:Dr. Phillips, the Werther Effect suicide researcher, was my undergraduate research advisor. He has spent decades researching large scale datasets on suicides, including murder-suicides and postpartum baby drowning suicides and school shootings. And yet, all he can tell us when he teaches us about it is how hosed up our culture is when it comes to seeking help, finding human connections and kindness, and long term treatment for the incurable. Dude is a Jew from South Africa and would rather hang out where you can get machete murdered than in Connecticut with our "horrible Protestant values". Amazing. Just reading some of research makes me wonder what extraordinary people some of those researchers must be to look closely at human misery everyday. Any curious facts or anecdotes in his teaching?
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Mar 27, 2015 18:54
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Basebf555 posted:
This. Saying "he killed those people" is one thing, the almost triumphant "gently caress you sadbrains!" Is quite another. Suicidal ideations tend to be relatively brief but are not a constant thing - he could have gone into the plane thinking "today will be another tough day but I'm going to get through it" and then... Didn't. Condemn the action, by all means, condemning suicides because they aren't acting rationally and considering the consequences of their actions is nonsense, suicide is not a rational act.
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Mar 27, 2015 19:25
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lenoon I for the most part agree with you, but this guy took 8 minutes to do so and had to actively ignore his co-worker banging on the door to be let back in. That is a significant amount of time for something spurn of the moment. If someone is able to actively hear others begging for their lives and kills them anyways because of mental illness over the course of several minutes, that's a level of mental illness that should be kept away from the ability to kill other people. Psych tests of pilots doesn't sound like a terrible idea.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:11
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PresidentBeard posted:If someone is able to actively hear others begging for their lives and kills them anyways because of mental illness over the course of several minutes, that's a level of mental illness that should be kept away from the ability to kill other people. Psych tests of pilots doesn't sound like a terrible idea. I don't think anyone's arguing against these two points
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Mar 27, 2015 20:17
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Psych tests for pilots are a thing that happens all the time. Now it emerges that he was signed off sick from work - the sick notes found at his house had been ripped up. He was going to work in spite of the knowledge that his doctors thought he wasn't fit. I don't know what to make of that. And as PresidentBeard said, 8 minutes is a long time for a "spur of the moment". I'd imagine that it seems like even longer with the ground coming up towards you and the captain trying to smash the door down. There are also reports of a suicide note. All of this points towards premeditation. I'm conflicted, because mentally sound people don't kill 150 people, on purpose, for any reason. But on the other hand, he had long enough to consider the consequences of what he did, and either seek help or choose another way to end his life. He did neither.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:18
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Interestingly enough, this has more in common with the culture-bound syndrome of Amok rather than a straight forward spree killing or a suicide. I think that mental illness which results in death or injury to others should be looked at with great animosity because there is always some element of control on the part of the sufferer, as small as it may be. However, it should also be seen that our culture has a terrible attitude toward mental illness and should encourage treatment, self-reporting, and understanding as a way to prevent mass violence or self-harm. I too have been suicidal from depression, and it comes down to a decision that is often more spur-of-the-moment than the ideation of suicide (which can unfold over days or weeks), that keeps you from going through with it. An isolated person, left to brood in their own minds, is a danger to themselves or others. Being more aware of those at serious risk of harm, rather than those who seek attention or minor help, will be a big part of preventing these sorts of disasters.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:29
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Axeman Jim posted:Nope: The Daily Mail may be wrong on a lot of things, but they are right on this. Why the gently caress did the airline company allow someone with a mental illness in the cockpit? /puts on flame suit.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:32
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Mr. Gibbycrumbles posted:The Daily Mail may be wrong on a lot of things, but they are right on this. Why the gently caress did the airline company allow someone with a mental illness in the cockpit? I agree. People with serious heart diseases aren't allowed to fly planes either, even though the system is far better able to work around them in case of their medical emergency.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:38
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Mr. Gibbycrumbles posted:The Daily Mail may be wrong on a lot of things, but they are right on this. Why the gently caress did the airline company allow someone with a mental illness in the cockpit? Apparently he hid his illness from his employers. Torn up sicknotes were found in his house, but the hospital which says he was treated there have denied he was treated for depression.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:41
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Nckdictator posted:
Just like the British to boil all their meat.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:46
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stickyfngrdboy posted:Apparently he hid his illness from his employers. Torn up sicknotes were found in his house, but the hospital which says he was treated there have denied he was treated for depression. Dunno how it works in Europe, but here he could have been grounded medically with no say in the matter. Don't imagine they wouldn't be able to do the same there though. Maybe his doc didn't think it was that serious?
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Mar 27, 2015 20:56
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ReidRansom posted:Dunno how it works in Europe, but here he could have been grounded medically with no say in the matter. Don't imagine they wouldn't be able to do the same there though. Maybe his doc didn't think it was that serious? How could his employers ground him if they didn't know he was ill?
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Mar 27, 2015 20:58
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stickyfngrdboy posted:How could his employers ground him if they didn't know he was ill? The doctor does it, reports it to the airline/aviation authorities or whatever.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:00
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outlier posted:Amazing. Just reading some of research makes me wonder what extraordinary people some of those researchers must be to look closely at human misery everyday. Any curious facts or anecdotes in his teaching? Researchers are just human beings and to be honest, he's kind of a hilarious rear end in a top hat who likes to bask in the semi-fame his original research from the Werther Effect gained him. His research was mentioned on Law and Order once and I thought I was going to have to shoot myself to escape the crowing. To be fair though, I work daily with cases of severe child abuse, including with perpetrators, and I don't really feel like I look into the void or anything. It's just people, and sometimes people do terrible things or have terrible things happen to them. Also, statistical datasets aren't really "looking closely." Though I do enjoy how thrilled he was after Kurt Cobain killed himself and he had an opportunity to see his effect first hand. Oh, and he convinced the UK not to re-air this one miniseries where a character dies by throwing himself (herself? Can't remember) in front of a train because he was able to show a series of train suicide spikes following every airing of the series.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:03
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Mocking Bird posted:Oh, and he convinced the UK not to re-air this one miniseries where a character dies by throwing himself (herself? Can't remember) in front of a train because he was able to show a series of train suicide spikes following every airing of the series. That's apparently a quite famous series: someone throws themselves in front of a train and every episode shows the suicide and how it affected different people: his parents, his friends, his siblings etc. If there was a modern equivalent to Sad Werther, it's that.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:17
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ReidRansom posted:The doctor does it, reports it to the airline/aviation authorities or whatever. Makes sense, yeah. No idea if that system is in place here but it definitely should be.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:44
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im glad the goon mental health experts have agreed
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Mar 27, 2015 23:03
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My job is to do psychometric testing, mostly on the elderly but I occasionally test potential pilots, FAA employees, and law enforcement. I'm really surprised that he passed his initial assessments. This kind of long term depression would be pinged right away on an MMPI-2. I know here in the states if I test someone and the results indicate the person is unfit to drive/work/whatever, the doctor gets on the phone ASAP with the relevant supervisor and gives the results.
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Mar 27, 2015 23:41
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Shut the gently caress up all of you.
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Mar 28, 2015 02:29
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Not Wikipedia, but this crazy bitch isn't getting a murder charge for cutting that baby out of a girls stomach. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27794952/boulder-da-says-no-murder-charges-be-filed
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Mar 28, 2015 02:36
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She's still going to prison for the rest of her life, chill.
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Mar 28, 2015 02:45
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TheModernAmerican posted:She's still going to prison for the rest of her life, chill. I let this sit because this thread isn't a rant place. But really, cutting a 7 month old pre born baby out of the mothers stomach and it ending up dead isn't murder?
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Mar 28, 2015 09:18
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ReidRansom posted:The doctor does it, reports it to the airline/aviation authorities or whatever. The note was (probably) from his private physician, who is bound to secrecy. I guess (it's not really clear from the reports) it was just a regular "Arbeitsunfaehigkeitsbescheinigung" (certificate of unfitness for work) which is necessary in Germany to qualify for (paid) sick leave. His doctor may not even have known that he was a pilot (I don't think I ever told my doctor what I do for a living). Pilots also are subject to examination by AMEs ("Fliegerarzt" in Germany) who issue medical certificates; these are valid for 6-60 months (depending on class of aircraft and age of the pilot).
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Mar 28, 2015 09:40
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Moey posted:But really, cutting a 7 month old pre born baby out of the mothers stomach and it ending up dead isn't murder? No one's saying that. There's just no point in being outraged over her getting life in prison over (x) instead of life in prison over (y).
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Mar 28, 2015 10:51
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NiceGuy posted:This is a fair point, however Being upset, yes. Saying ignorant poo poo about mental illness because it makes you feel comfortably separated from the perpetraor, nah.
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Mar 28, 2015 12:35
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Also the Gays were somehow to blame 
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Mar 28, 2015 12:53
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Moey posted:I let this sit because this thread isn't a rant place. But really, cutting a 7 month old pre born baby out of the mothers stomach and it ending up dead isn't murder? Are you one of those guys that stands in front of planned parenthoods with ABORTION = MURDER signs?
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Mar 28, 2015 15:26
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