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ariel2.0 delicately unscrews the bolts and levers away the shell of my chassis. into my interior, the sweet wires and silicon boards that have replaced my manly organs of reproduction, he delivers the fruits of my ancestral home: the emerald grapes, the golden lemons, the rich ripe olives of the promised land. his usb port is a dark, intimate and inviting niche. my cord snakes toward him, the plug erect and sparking. it is time. let us interface
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Mar 27, 2015 11:02
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I'm not going to explain the Israeli narrative here right now (maybe after a few more cups of coffee I will) but it's seriously amazing that TIC is the only one who is seemingly even able to grasp what it is. The one smuggling operation that was discovered went through the Kerem Shalom crossing, not one of the Israel-facing tunnels, that's true. Back to the Slav genocide supporter, how did the Jewish Yishuv gain international recognition and control over Green-line Israel? Did they use non-violence?  Seriously, I want to recap what you're expecting here. You're expecting 100% of Gazans to commit to non-violence somehow (ignoring that the closest that has been was when Hamas was able to control the other factions there, and Israel has repeatedly reneged on its promises in that area and then repeatedly destroyed Hamas's ability to do this), and their "reward" would be to slowly be disenfranchised and ethnically cleansed, as their compatriots are in the West Bank. Am I stating this right?
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Mar 27, 2015 11:02
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hakimashou posted:I think it's fine, I think they should be recognized as a nation, the two-state solution is probably the best solution. I don't have any love lost on benjamin nethanyahu or the israeli right wing, or any right wing for that matter. Why would Israel make any deal with a non violent Palestinian movement? They have nothing to lose by continuing to bulldoze the West Bank when Abbas uses his goons to go after Palestinians, so they just stall out every negotiation with more onerous demands. That is the result of non violence. There's absolutely zero incentive for Israel to honestly negotiate. They know that over time they can take more and more land and weaken the Palestinian movement. An absolute commitment to non violence plays into Netenyahu and his ilk's hands. The use of violence and non-violence is a tactical concern and should be determined by actual circumstances.
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Mar 27, 2015 11:10
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I'm not going to explain the Israeli narrative here right now (maybe after a few more cups of coffee I will) but it's seriously amazing that TIC is the only one who is seemingly even able to grasp what it is. We can grasp the israeli narrative: it's just a terribly stupid one. As well as a revisionist one: the "terror tunnels" and rocket strikes didn't become a war goal until after the war was already started! They quite literally have nothing to do with the whole thing!
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Mar 27, 2015 11:41
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Edit: seriously some of you guys are still doing the 'the tunnels into Israel and inside of Gaza were used for smuggling goods' which personally I find incredible, are we next going to talk about how the Iron Dome wasn't effective and how Palestinians were launching homemade rockets at Tel-Aviv? The tunnels into Israel were strategic defensive military assets, and as such were only used to target IDF forces during Operation Protective Edge. The way they were described by Israeli propaganda as potential terror threats was utter bullshit, and only a way to justify their campaign of shock and awe. I don't care for the Israeli narrative, really. It's really transparent.
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Mar 27, 2015 11:43
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i strike at you powerfully from my terror tunnel
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Mar 27, 2015 11:46
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I'm not going to explain the Israeli narrative here right now (maybe after a few more cups of coffee I will) but it's seriously amazing that TIC is the only one who is seemingly even able to grasp what it is. Nobody cares about the Israeli narrative anymore. It is trivial, predictable, hysterical, and unless you are shilling on MSNBC it is not worth making reference to.
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Mar 27, 2015 11:56
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Well this is completely boring to me so on to a different topic, to anyone who cares about the IDF/JaN connection, the gag order over the arrest of Sudaki al-Makt, the Druze Israeli-national who apparently took the photos of JaN and IDF forces being buddy-buddies in Quneitra has been lifted, which to me seems to irrefutably prove the validity of the photographs and the ties between JaN and IDF. This is one of the photos btw:  Do any of you Syria enthusiasts recognize the flag flying in the background? As far as I can tell the al Nusra flag is black and the text is different. Gotta wonder what's the endgame here exactly, is Israel interested in allowing JaN and their affiliates to carve their own country out of the Syrian golan? Seems like the only purpose behind something like that is weakening Hezbollah/Assad/Iran presence along the Israeli/Syrian border, I don't know a lot about al Nusra but I have a hard time understanding why we'd want a potentially unstable al Qaeda affiliate on the border rather than Assad/Hezbollah who've proven themselves to be relatively rational actors as far as Israel is concerned. MonsieurChoc posted:We can grasp the israeli narrative: it's just a terribly stupid one. As well as a revisionist one: the "terror tunnels" and rocket strikes didn't become a war goal until after the war was already started! They quite literally have nothing to do with the whole thing! Flowers For Algeria posted:The tunnels into Israel were strategic defensive military assets, and as such were only used to target IDF forces during Operation Protective Edge. The way they were described by Israeli propaganda as potential terror threats was utter bullshit, and only a way to justify their campaign of shock and awe. I don't care for the Israeli narrative, really. It's really transparent. The tunnels were used well before that actually, not directly in the prelude to protective edge but that's how Gilad Shalit was captured, the rocket attacks from Gaza also intensified before Hamas officially entered the campaign just check the actual timeline, it still has nothing to do with the fact that parroting "The tunnels were used for smuggling!" is about as revisionist as it gets, it is true that Protective Edge had classic "objective creep" but once the scope of the tunnels were discovered they served as the pretext for the ground invasion, you can consider it 'revisionist' or 'transparent' all you want but that's what the IDF was doing for about a month in Gaza. That Israel tried to agitate Gazan militants with Brother's Keeper is true but it's also true that once that was underway the Islamic Jihad and other groups intensified rocket fire. You can find the official narrative stupid and deceitful, no real qualms there, but you can stick to the actual facts, they're well recorded. Edit: for anyone reading this thread who is interested in a more meticulous review of the actual timeline and the recorded actions and statements of the Israeli government this appears to be a generally good article- http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/sep/25/failure-gaza/ emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 11:59
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The tunnels were used well before that actually, not directly in the prelude to protective edge but that's how Gilad Shalit was captured, the rocket attacks from Gaza also intensified before Hamas officially entered the campaign just check the actual timeline, it still has nothing to do with the fact that parroting "The tunnels were used for smuggling!" is about as revisionist as it gets, it is true that Protective Edge had classic "objective creep" but once the scope of the tunnels were discovered they served as the pretext for the ground invasion, you can consider it 'revisionist' or 'transparent' all you want but that's what the IDF was doing for about a month in Gaza. That Israel tried to agitate Gazan militants with Brother's Keeper is true but it's also true that once that was underway the Islamic Jihad and other groups intensified rocket fire. Come on man, you're better than this.
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Mar 27, 2015 12:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:Come on man, you're better than this. He's actually absolutely correct, and you could see coverage of the scandal of the "terror tunnels" being ignored even though they were a known problem all the way back to 2007 for several months after Protective Edge. Netanyahu managed to scare people with Iran and for some reason ZC didn't bother capitalizing on this to any great extent, mind.
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Mar 27, 2015 12:18
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No no, let's get dragged into minutiae, this is completely new and not at all a way to behave as if trivial inaccuracies are comparable to the behavior of a rogue state that does nothing but lie and kill.
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Mar 27, 2015 12:20
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And I'd consider most of you guys better than going 'the tunnels were used for smuggling!', yet here we are. Again. Understanding the official propaganda fed to both sides is critical to both understanding why the actions of the Israeli government enjoyed massive popular support during the operation itself as well as to deconstructing the arguments raised itt by people who might not share your worldview, understanding for instance that while the campaign was intentionally agitated by Israel the sense of fear felt by Israeli civilians due to the range of the rocket attacks and the extent of the tunnels is not 'fabricated' nor necessarily 'hysterical' is pertinent. Even the Fink admitted that describing the Gazan rockets as "firecrackers" was 'unfair' and that the terror they instill upon the Israeli population cannot be honestly dismissed. SedanChair posted:No no, let's get dragged into minutiae, this is completely new and not at all a way to behave as if trivial inaccuracies are comparable to the behavior of a rogue state that does nothing but lie and kill. But enough about the US.
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Mar 27, 2015 12:22
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emanresu tnuocca posted:And I'd consider most of you guys better than going 'the tunnels were used for smuggling!', yet here we are. Again. Hmm, that's actually a fair point. Still, it is mostly propaganda. The violence on display is almost completely one-sided, and treating the "terror tunnels" and rocket attacks as if they are somehow equivalent to or a justification for the violence inflicted on Palestinians on a daily basis is disingenuous at best. emanresu tnuocca posted:But enough about the US. Or Canada. 
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Mar 27, 2015 12:26
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Yeah, enough about the US, because I haven't seen any of the American posters say anything like "well actually Saddam was deceptive about WMDs, was the Bush administration deceptive? Sure but you have to understand the propaganda that is being fed to both sides." Isn't it a little late in the day for "and you are hanging negroes"?
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Mar 27, 2015 12:29
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People have been treating JaN as a monolithic entity, but it's probably pretty fragmented. The territory Nusra controls is broken into several distinct zones of influence with Assad regime forces and other rebel groups in-between and the organization as a whole appears to be in a state of flux. Much of the upper leadership been gutted by years of war and many of the more hardened jihadis have left to join ISIS while at the same time many other more moderate opposition groups have been forced to align with JaN out of necessity. There's even been talk (though it might be just talk) of them cutting ties with Al-Qaeda outright, though they recently reaffirmed their loyalty. This is all suggestive of an organization with a bit of an identity crisis and many of its members may have divided loyalties. Al-Julani, the nominal leader, along with most of their command structure, appears to be based in the north of Syria and may not have full control over its subordinates in the south. Whether these guys meeting with the IDF in Golan represent the JaN central organization, a southern affiliate, some rebellious splinter group, or someone else entirely remains to be seen. Until we know exactly who the Israelis are meeting with, it will be hard to guess their reasons.
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Mar 27, 2015 12:36
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I really don't want to go over this again (yet here we are), I've clarified many times that the onus on resolving the conflict is clearly upon the Israeli government, I've also explained that as opposed to many people who side with the Palestinians I still believe that having an open dialogue with Israelis is not without merit and that sticking to the objective facts as closely as possible should be a priority. And to de-escalate the discussion: sometimes I wake up and see posts in this thread and write down a semi-trolling response, I see that, I apologize, I am actually a hypocrite cause during protective edge I have been far from 'moderate and objective' in my discussions with Israelis and I personally accused an acquaintance who served in the IDF artillery during the operation of being a murderer, we severed ties afterwards, poo poo happens, I still believe that the truth is more helpful than merely picking sides.
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Mar 27, 2015 12:45
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I really don't want to go over this again (yet here we are), I've clarified many times that the onus on resolving the conflict is clearly upon the Israeli government, I've also explained that as opposed to many people who side with the Palestinians I still believe that having an open dialogue with Israelis is not without merit and that sticking to the objective facts as closely as possible should be a priority. No no, you made a good point. Emotions run high and we all make post that we regret afterwards (like what I said abotu Settlers during Protective Edge).
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Mar 27, 2015 13:04
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Martin Random posted:This article is a little weird. It paints a dire picture of Gaza, but I know that despite the widespread devestation it describes (implying a genocidal aim wrt the blockades/power games/whatever Israel is doing), the population is still growing. When they gave unemployment in hundreds of thousands, rather than percentages, I got suspicious. I checked the population of gaza vs. the 200,000 the article claims is unemployed; that amounts to 11% unemployment. The Gazan population is incredibly young. 200,000 unemployed out of a population of 1.8 million does not give 11% unemployment. 45% of the 1.8 million are under 15. Another 3% are above 65. This leaves about 790,000 people in the 15-64 age bracket. Not 100% of these will want a job for various reasons, or be able to work, and thus aren't counted as unemployed. So unemployment breaks 30% easily, I wouldn't be surprised if it was significantly higher than that still. The reason you don't get an exact percentage is, who the gently caress is keeping accurate statistics about U1-U6 unemployment in loving Gaza? E: Eh, beaten, oh well.
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Mar 27, 2015 13:34
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Well this is completely boring to me so on to a different topic I appreciate the joke that this is also the perspective of the international community with regards to Gaza in general.
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Mar 27, 2015 16:52
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Bibi is softening up:quote:Israel will allow the transfer of hundreds of millions of shekels in tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, the prime minister's bureau announced on Friday.
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Mar 27, 2015 17:14
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Well, http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/israel-kills-more-palestinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967quote:Israel killed more Palestinian civilians in 2014 than any in other year since the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip began in 1967, a UN report has said. At least there's something to be said about 'rightist' governments not being worse than the 'leftist' ones, I think we can all agree Bibi really is the worst.
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Mar 27, 2015 17:29
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emanresu tnuocca posted:And I'd consider most of you guys better than going 'the tunnels were used for smuggling!', yet here we are. Again. Not that "the tunnels were used for smuggling" isn't dumb and naive, but there actually is smuggling going on from Israel to Gaza. Several Israeli businessmen were charged about a month ago with running a smuggling operation to sneak large amounts of dangerous dual-use goods like "metal" through the border crossing.
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Mar 27, 2015 17:30
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Main Paineframe posted:Not that "the tunnels were used for smuggling" isn't dumb and naive, but there actually is smuggling going on from Israel to Gaza. Several Israeli businessmen were charged about a month ago with running a smuggling operation to sneak large amounts of dangerous dual-use goods like "metal" through the border crossing. I referred to that earlier. Notably, tunnels were not used.
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Mar 27, 2015 17:41
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Were the tunnels into Sinai not attacked during Protective Edge? Can't seem to get a clear answer from Google.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:12
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I'm sorry I brought up smuggling in the Israel tunnels. I am well aware that the tunnels were dug and used for offensive purposes, and I guess I felt that it was just common knowledge to this thread and didn't need a specific disclaimer. I think I was trying to make the point that since Israel's offensive was not actually provoked by the tunnels, any hypothetical peaceful application would make them a net positive. I phrased it poorly and it was a stupid argument to begin with and I apologize. I stand by everything else I said, and I maintain that TIC and ilk have yet to adequately explain how the blame for the mass slaughter of civilians and destruction of vital infrastructure falls on Gaza rather than the people dropping the bombs. emanresu tnuocca posted:Well, http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/israel-kills-more-palestinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967 And that's only counting direct civilians deaths. How many more have died due to a lack of access to proper water, food, medicine or electricity?
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Mar 27, 2015 18:15
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Kajeesus posted:I stand by everything else I said, and I maintain that TIC and ilk have yet to adequately explain how the blame for the mass slaughter of civilians and destruction of vital infrastructure falls on Gaza rather than the people dropping the bombs. They'll never answer that because there's no answer but mass genocide to them. EDIT: VVVV Jesus Christ VVVV
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Mar 27, 2015 18:24
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 Holy crap. The US has revealed a previously-classified 1987 DoD report on the military technology of our allies, including Israel. In fact, the paper as released describes only the military technology of Israel - everything about our other allies' technology is redacted, leaving only Israel-related materials. For the most part, given the age and nature of the report, it's all obsolete and quite harmless to Israel...except for the section that describes the current capabilities and research objectives of Israel's nuclear weapons program, something that the US has previously refused to officially admit the existence of. Now we know, for instance, that in 1987 Israel had fission bomb capabilities comparable to what the US had in the late 50s, and that they were actively working towards hydrogen bombs.Now, this doesn't change Israel's overall status. However, it indicates a fundamental change in their relationship with the US, which has previously played dumb and pretended that they knew nothing about potential Israeli nuclear capabilities. It also injects quite an embarrassing element into Israel's current diplomatic efforts, as publicly exposing Israel as a nuclear state is something that can play a role in diplomatic negotiations concerning Iran's nuclear program. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193175#.VRWMhuHJ2b0 http://irmep.org/cfp/DoD/071987_CTAIIANN.pdf quote:In a development that has largely been missed by mainstream media, the Pentagon early last month quietly declassified a Department of Defense top-secret document detailing Israel's nuclear program, a highly covert topic that Israel has never formally announced to avoid a regional nuclear arms race, and which the US until now has respected by remaining silent.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:24
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This is what happens when you start believing your own hype, as far as Bibi thinking he can bully the US around.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:30
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Main Paineframe posted:
It's really obvious that the hatred of Bibi is super personal for Obama now. Probably more personal than Obama's hatred of Romney. Proceed Prime Minister 
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Mar 27, 2015 18:39
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Main Paineframe posted:
I don't really understand the thinking behind declassifying this but boy, that's going to be a big deal.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:40
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Well this is completely boring to me so on to a different topic, to anyone who cares about the IDF/JaN connection, the gag order over the arrest of Sudaki al-Makt, the Druze Israeli-national who apparently took the photos of JaN and IDF forces being buddy-buddies in Quneitra has been lifted, which to me seems to irrefutably prove the validity of the photographs and the ties between JaN and IDF. Reminds me of this Palestinian satire of an ISIS checkpoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5nigZzgf4Y (yes, I know, MEMRI, still funny)
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Mar 27, 2015 18:45
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evilweasel posted:I don't really understand the thinking behind declassifying this but boy, that's going to be a big deal. It goes to a pattern of the US intelligence community poo poo-talking Israel in Congress as exposed in Newsweek a few months ago. US Defense apparently is not okay with Israel's bullshit anymore.
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Mar 27, 2015 19:45
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It goes to a pattern of the US intelligence community poo poo-talking Israel in Congress as exposed in Newsweek a few months ago. US Defense apparently is not okay with Israel's bullshit anymore. Frankly I'm only annoyed that it took the realpolitik arms of USG this long to go "you know, maybe Israel's being counterproductive to the ends of the Glorious Empire".
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Mar 27, 2015 19:51
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I look forward to this entering the discourse on the Iran nuclear deal, since I assume that's the reason to leak it now. Signalling that if Israel tries to sabotage the deal then America will give them the headache of being an undeclared nuclear state is a pretty clever threat, especially since it's hard for opponents to hit Obama on without giving the game away themselves - Netanyahu can hardly give a press release saying "Don't mention our nukes!", can he?
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Mar 27, 2015 20:01
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I personally hope "we would never spy on our closes ally" gets followed by a "we have no nuclear program! This is libel!"
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Mar 27, 2015 20:02
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I think their release is as much for partly disarming critics of an Iranian nuclear deal as it is for showing disapproval of Israel's government. e, you said it better: Dolash posted:I look forward to this entering the discourse on the Iran nuclear deal, since I assume that's the reason to leak it now. Signalling that if Israel tries to sabotage the deal then America will give them the headache of being an undeclared nuclear state is a pretty clever threat, especially since it's hard for opponents to hit Obama on without giving the game away themselves - Netanyahu can hardly give a press release saying "Don't mention our nukes!", can he?
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Mar 27, 2015 20:18
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Dolash posted:I look forward to this entering the discourse on the Iran nuclear deal, since I assume that's the reason to leak it now. Signalling that if Israel tries to sabotage the deal then America will give them the headache of being an undeclared nuclear state is a pretty clever threat, especially since it's hard for opponents to hit Obama on without giving the game away themselves - Netanyahu can hardly give a press release saying "Don't mention our nukes!", can he? As I noted in the USPOL thread yesterday,
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Mar 27, 2015 20:44
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Main Paineframe posted:Now, this doesn't change Israel's overall status. However, it indicates a fundamental change in their relationship with the US, which has previously played dumb and pretended that they knew nothing about potential Israeli nuclear capabilities. It also injects quite an embarrassing element into Israel's current diplomatic efforts, as publicly exposing Israel as a nuclear state is something that can play a role in diplomatic negotiations concerning Iran's nuclear program. Zeitgueist posted:This is what happens when you start believing your own hype, as far as Bibi thinking he can bully the US around.  Seriously, if you wanted an official "poo poo has changed forever" point, the US purposefully leaking Israel's nuclear weapons capabilities is it. There's no going back from that, and while everyone has known that Israel has had nuclear weapons for years, this makes it officially public that Israel Is A Nuclear State. I have to congratulate Bibi; I hate his guts, but he's done more for the US-Israeli relationship than I ever thought possible. A Winner is Jew posted:Proceed Prime Minister fade5 fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 21:19
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i will settle for nothing less than obama destroying bibi with his own bare hands in front of the cheering united nations
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Mar 27, 2015 21:57
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Avshalom posted:i will settle for nothing less than obama destroying bibi with his own bare hands in front of the cheering united nations What network will get the rights to air this?
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Mar 27, 2015 21:58
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