|
Hitlers Gay Secret posted:What the gently caress does that have to do with what I said? he seems to think that the US would allow Israel to commit genocide because of 9/11.
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 07:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 15:43 |
|
|
bencreateddisco posted:he seems to think that the US would allow Israel to commit genocide because of 9/11. That's a pretty accurate summary of the current situation actually
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 07:20
|
|
|
zimboe posted:I hereby formally abandon all hope of understanding or putting any sense to the Middle East. Politics, religion, and powerlust has trumped simple human reason. How sad do you have to be to get drunk and then start posting in the I/P thread? Hang out with friends, go out to a bar, do something, but please don't drunk post on forums, it's very sad.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 07:24
|
|
|
Heavy neutrino posted:Back in 2008: Yes, I've seen the second-hand hearsay about Hamas supposedly throwing away their entire raison d'etre. And it always turns out to be bullshit that's peddled to credulous Westerners. Feel free to Google up Hamas leaders actually saying on tape in rallies that they'll never give up an inch of land to an Israeli state. And I shouldn't even have to point out that "give us ten years to rearm and rebuild for a renewed conflict" is not an actual call for a two-state solution. It's very hard to take the hardcore anti-Zionists seriously when they refuse to face reality. It's one thing to interpret the facts differently, but when you're twisting yourself into knots pretending Hamas is pro-peace you're announcing to anyone who isn't a deluded fanatic that you're not credible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 07:29
|
|
|
I'm literally an alsatian jew and I oppose the racist apartheid state of Israel. END THE KILLING END THE CRIME FREE FREE PALESTINE
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 07:29
|
|
|
zimboe posted:So Paineframe, you are putting your faith in the effectiveness of MAD? The thing I hate about people who come in here and say "I don't really know much about any of this, but..." is that they always, always confuse propaganda with reality. Iran's leadership is just as rational as anyone else, it's just that they know a lot more about their situation than the average American does. Even a brief look at the last hundred years of Iranian history will tell you exactly why Iran behaves they way they do on the international stage, and it's got next to nothing to do with "political Islamists".
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 08:03
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:Yes, I've seen the second-hand hearsay about Hamas supposedly throwing away their entire raison d'etre. And it always turns out to be bullshit that's peddled to credulous Westerners. Feel free to Google up Hamas leaders actually saying on tape in rallies that they'll never give up an inch of land to an Israeli state. And I shouldn't even have to point out that "give us ten years to rearm and rebuild for a renewed conflict" is not an actual call for a two-state solution. Of course Hamas is pro-peace. Real peace, though. That's because they are relatively rational actors who have every reason to want peace. They're not crazy people who absolutely want to kill Jews and use the IP conflict as a pretext. I prefer to pay attention to what Meshaal says to his international partners rather than his empassioned speeches to the Palestinian throngs because I know he is a politician making campaign speeches. If campaign speeches were true, my country would have got rid of Big Finance and would have restored the public sector instead of gutting it. Guess what happened? Hamas will compromise, because it knows that its objectives have to be realistic. That's what Arafat eventually did. Maybe you're too young to remember how Big Bad Arafat was a reviled terrorist who only wanted a new Holocaust before he became one of the architects of the peace process. And before you bring it up, I don't give a poo poo about a valueless charter whose author died a decade ago and that quotes the Quran to strengthen its bellicose narrative. It is worthless. It means nothing in the current state of affairs, it is not relevant to Hamas today. The only people to ever bring it up are people like you, Hamas doesn't care about it and justifies none of its actions by it. A large majority of Palestinians are pro-peace. Most of them are against rocket attacks, according to local polls. They merely want to have their country and live a tranquil life. They don't care about the Jews because they're fundamentally antisemitic, they hate their occupier. Once the occupation stops, things will get better over time. But the "they're Jew-haters who won't stop until every Israeli is dead" talk is absurd, and it doesn't help because it makes any resolution that isn't "one of the groups has to leave or disappear" impossible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 09:50
|
|
|
do not respond to zimboe i say this as an migf truefan: zimboe is not worth your time. he's not a troll, he's just a crazy person with what seems to be a legit intellectual handicap - he can't be reasoned with or understood, so don't even try, and he's not even entertaining in the manner of a kyoon so he's basically not worth listening to do not respond to zimboe
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 10:16
|
|
|
Avshalom posted:do not respond to zimboe don't crazy shame. some people just learned that israel bad and they need a place to demonstrate their newfound intellectual mastery of the I/P conflict, don't take the fruits of attending one lecture during 'Israeli Apartheid Weak' away from them, even if they're crazy nuke fetishists.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 10:26
|
|
|
Avshalom posted:do not respond to zimboe quoting for truth. MiGFans assemble!
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 12:06
|
|
|
I don't think this is a very good time for Israel supporters to make hay out of two-faced rhetoric.
Peel fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 12:08
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:The Israelis do not consider themselves to be strong, nor do they consider any of their alliances with the west to be anything more than 'weddings of convenience'.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:12
|
|
|
Flowers For Algeria posted:
... So if we're not paying attention to campaign speeches, or charters, or pretty much anything... we're basically inventing whatever version of "what Hamas is going to do" that we feel like? The whole "rational actor" shtick kinda requires a degree of correlation between your actions.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:33
|
|
|
Hamas is bad and are terrorists, but as an irish person i can't really fault them for it because nearly all the political parties of my country were terrorists at some point
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:35
|
|
|
Forums Terrorist posted:Hamas is bad and are terrorists, but as an irish person i can't really fault them for it because nearly all the political parties of my country were terrorists at some point So were the political parties in Israel! It still makes them lovely people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:36
|
|
|
you will note i didn't say they stopped being bad
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:37
|
|
|
Elotana posted:What do the tattoos say? (And what's the source of this image, I really like it as a shorthand explanation of Israeli bunker mentality.) Source seems to be Mysh: http://972mag.com/facebook-censors-cartoons-against-racism-capitalism/47197/selfesteem/ The tattoos read: That which is not resolved with force is resolved with violence. Roadkill every haredi/religious-person (the word is "Dos" which is slang for Dati, i.e religious but it commonly used to refer to haredim) A good arab is a dead arab. Death to the sudanese. Let the IDF 'beat to a pulp' (rhymes with 'Let the IDF win'). Russians to russia, Ethiopians to Ethiopia. The one on the rightmost is truncated but I think it reads "Slaughter and forgive" (טבח וסלח), I might be getting it wrong as it might be referring some other nationalist slogan I am not familiar with. Basically they're all nationalistic slogans that are used by right wingers or are commonly shouted during football matches. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:38
|
|
|
i wonder how much of israel's terribleness is because of the russian jews you can take the jew out of russia but you can't take the russia out of the jew (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:39
|
|
|
Are you intentionally trying to bait Xander?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:41
|
|
|
Not much. Post-1990 Russians are marginalized and excluded to the extent that some embrace antisemitism despite being of jewish descent themselves. They do have a very small and unpopular right-wing party led by Avigdor Lieberman but everything wrong with Israel was already in place before the Russians came along.quote:One of the group's members, Ivan Kuzmin, said that in "Russia they called me Dirty Jew, and here they called me Stinking Russian". He said that the racism he experienced turned him into a racist. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:42
|
|
|
oh welp it seemed possible since russians are a brutish, cowardly lot
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:43
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:We've just spent pages and pages paying attention to Bibi's campaign promises. Both Israeli and Palestinian political parties, being political parties, use duplicitous and politically convenient rhetoric. It's best to look at their actions. Netanyahu's statement that he would never allow a Palestinian state was taken seriously, because it was an admission of something already known to observers from Israel's continued settlement policies and opposition to Palestinian statehood in the UN. Its significance lay in what it might mean that Bibi was willing to break kayfabe, rather than what it revealed about Israeli policies directly. Similarly, Hamas' statements must be evaluated in light of their will and ability to maintain long-term ceasefires even under blockade. If Bibi had said something convenient to the Israeli right days ahead of an election after a premiership that had seen massive strides toward an equitable peace and Palestinian state recognition, and meanwhile Hamas leaders protested that they were all in favour of a two-state solution while conducting a high-intensity terror campaign, the statements would be evaluated differently.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 15:49
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:
Obviously. OwlBot 2000 posted:Not much. Post-1990 Russians are marginalized and excluded to the extent that some embrace antisemitism despite being of jewish descent themselves. They do have a very small and unpopular right-wing party led by Avigdor Lieberman but everything wrong with Israel was already in place before the Russians came along. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Mar 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 16:16
|
|
|
Flowers For Algeria posted:Of course Hamas is pro-peace. Real peace, though. That's because they are relatively rational actors who have every reason to want peace. They're not crazy people who absolutely want to kill Jews and use the IP conflict as a pretext. Given these comments, is Netanyahu a partner for peace? Do you think the right of return is feasible with true peace? quote:A large majority of Palestinians are pro-peace. Most of them are against rocket attacks, according to local polls. They merely want to have their country and live a tranquil life. They don't care about the Jews because they're fundamentally antisemitic, they hate their occupier. Once the occupation stops, things will get better over time. Do you believe the majority of Israelis are pro-peace? Forums Terrorist posted:i wonder how much of israel's terribleness is because of the russian jews A lot, but a lot more of it's from the Mizrahim.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 16:43
|
|
|
Everyone is pro-peace. I'm one of the most pro-peace posters in this thread. Question is, what does your peace look like? Is it acceptable? Clearly, Flowers' peace is unacceptable.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 16:47
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:Given these comments, is Netanyahu a partner for peace? Do you think the right of return is feasible with true peace? And I think that the right of return would be the natural consequence of non-supremacist immigration policies. Kim Jong Il posted:Do you believe the majority of Israelis are pro-peace?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 18:05
|
|
|
Peel posted:Both Israeli and Palestinian political parties, being political parties, use duplicitous and politically convenient rhetoric. It's best to look at their actions. Netanyahu's statement that he would never allow a Palestinian state was taken seriously, because it was an admission of something already known to observers from Israel's continued settlement policies and opposition to Palestinian statehood in the UN. Its significance lay in what it might mean that Bibi was willing to break kayfabe, rather than what it revealed about Israeli policies directly. Similarly, Hamas' statements must be evaluated in light of their will and ability to maintain long-term ceasefires even under blockade. Honestly, Bibi's corrected statement post-election - that he is for a two-state solution, just only under certain specific circumstances and conditions that are now impossible - aligns just as accurately with his actions. The problem is that the conditions he would allow a Palestinian state under are conditions that always have been and always will be impossible, so the effective meaning of his stated Palestine policy never actually changed. Put simply, his position has always been that he is in favor of a two-state solution that the Palestinians would not and in fact could not accept. So, while he's not categorically opposed to a Palestinian state in principle, it won't happen under his leadership because he requires unacceptable conditions attached to it, and he's well aware of that. His pre-election pivot on Palestine and his post-election backpedal were both changes in tone only; if you pay very careful attention, he was saying the same thing the whole time, just adjusting the tone of his rhetoric to make the end result more obvious to the far-right voters. This is, by the way, why it's so very important to pay very close attention to wording in the I/P debate. When someone says that they want a demilitarized Palestinian state (which is what Netanyahu's "two-state solution" has always been), what they really mean is that they want a helpless Palestinian puppet state-in-name-only which is entirely at the mercy of Israel and under their complete and total military control. It's the greatest dream of center-right pro-Israel types, since the only actual effective change to the status quo would be that Israel would be able to delegitimize the Palestinian claims by saying "hey, we already gave you a state, what more could you want".
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 18:26
|
|
|
Forums Terrorist posted:Hamas is bad and are terrorists, but as an irish person i can't really fault them for it because nearly all the political parties of my country were terrorists at some point Didn't IRA-PLO solidarity used to be a thing? To the point it generated nonsense like this: 
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 20:33
|
|
|
eSports Chaebol posted:Didn't IRA-PLO solidarity used to be a thing? ... Seriously though, when I learned that lovely 80's action movies were actually right, and terrorists world over - from Ireland to Germany to Japan to the Middle East - were often united by their shared commitment to killing civilians, it was quite the revelation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 20:47
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:How is that evidence of intent whatsoever? Hamas also has explicitly not endorsed a two state solution. They have offered a hudna IF Israel allows every 1948 refugee to return. That's pretty explicitly support for an Ali Abunimah-one state solution in the most generous possible reading. Point me towards one quote saying that they would agree to permanent borders using the quartet framework of 1967 borders with tweaks, splitting Jerusalem, and only a small symbolic number of refugees return.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 20:51
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:Obviously. Between the chants of "Russians to Russia" and other commonly known forms of discrimination, it's truly bizarre for anyone honest to claim they aren't seen as "other" and somewhat less authentically Israeli than others: quote:The study revealed that 54% of the olim would like to be considered Israeli by the veteran inhabitants of Israel, but only 18% reported they felt themselves perceived in this way. One out of every four immigrants said they had been discriminated against because of their national background .... 40% of parents complained of discriminatory treatment of their children by school-teachers, and half of those polled said their children had reported discriminatory remarks made by other schoolchildren. 31% of parents said their children had suffered violence at the hands of schoolchildren who were not immigrants themselves. http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/existential-russians-implored quote:We have today a situation in Israel in which 100s of 1000s of Israelis do not have a personal status in the country. They are not recognized technically as Jews. They come from the Soviet Union or have been born to Soviet When they want to marry, they have no way to marry and they have to go outside the country in order to marry. Their Jewish identity [is] not recognized by the state. These are very serious problems, because in the end this could be a major split inside Israeli society. Which I have said in the past… I think this is a greater threat to Israel than the Iranian nuclear threat.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 21:17
|
|
|
eSports Chaebol posted:Didn't IRA-PLO solidarity used to be a thing? To the point it generated nonsense like this: It still is, during Protective Edge I was driving through a Loyalist housing estate and saw some pro-IDF graffiti and a couple of these beauties: 
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 21:23
|
|
|
CSM posted:"I accept a Palestinian state according [to] the 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as the capital, with the right to return," the Hamas leader told Christine Amanpour in Cairo." A Palestinian state. Says nothing about an Israeli state. In fact, those words could be interpreted to mean that the Israeli state should be overthrown and made Palestinian, and that Hamas' aim is a two Palestinian state solution. kustomkarkommando posted:It still is, during Protective Edge I was driving through a Loyalist housing estate and saw some pro-IDF graffiti and a couple of these beauties: Where could one get such a beautiful flag?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 22:02
|
|
|
Like Ive said before - this topic surfaces once or twice a year, and then fades from attention again. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/how-gazan-natural-gas-became-epicenter-international-power-struggle quote:The Often Overlooked Role of Natural Gas in the Israel-Palestine Conflict Same old. Israel purposefully starting conflicts with Lebanon, Syria, Cyprus, and Palestine so that they can steal stuff. This specific topic has been semi-under-the-radar in major news, but it seems likely to heat up a lot more as the clock keeps ticking.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 22:13
|
|
|
My idea of peace is everyone being reconciled in a single mass grave.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 22:20
|
|
|
Zelder posted:How sad do you have to be to get drunk and then start posting in the I/P thread? Hang out with friends, go out to a bar, do something, but please don't drunk post on forums, it's very sad. Sue me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 22:49
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:don't crazy shame. Thank you. It's a bitch to be crazy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 22:54
|
|
|
President Kucinich posted:My idea of peace is everyone being reconciled in a single mass grave. This one Roman figured out how to call a desert peace! Caledonians hate him!
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 23:02
|
|
|
OwlBot 2000 posted:Between the chants of "Russians to Russia" and other commonly known forms of discrimination, it's truly bizarre for anyone honest to claim they aren't seen as "other" and somewhat less authentically Israeli than others: "Are seen" by whom? I think that the passive form should be banned, to be honest. (Yes, I know, I was using the passive in that very sentence, sue me) Some Israeli Jews see Russians as others. Other Israeli Jews see them as more Israeli than those draft-dodging Haredim. Israeli Jewish society is not monolithic. That's why you have 9 parties in the current Knesset who represent (predominantly) Israeli Jews, the largest of which holds only a quarter of the total number of seats (or between a quarter and a third of the seats held by those parties).
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 23:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 15:43 |
|
|
Xander77 posted:Yes. Did you think Leslie Nielsen was lying to you? Groups with similar causes and ideologies often feel some solidarity with each other. The IRA in particular are strongly anti-colonialism, and have opposed colonial projects in Palestine for nearly a century.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2015 23:34
|
|