VitalSigns posted:

The federal minimum wage lies somewhere between "gently caress you" and "crime against humanity" so certain less-lovely states and municipalities have instituted a higher one. You're not allowed to go lower though, obviously.

VitalSigns posted:

The federal minimum wage lies somewhere between "gently caress you" and "crime against humanity" so certain less-lovely states and municipalities have instituted a higher one. You're not allowed to go lower though, obviously.

QuarkJets posted:

In this context, that actually might not have been obvious, given the typical state of affairs for low-income people in the US

VitalSigns posted:

Well, grammatically obvious anyway since it wouldn't really be a minimum then :iamafag:


I agree, Prester John, what is the Inner Narrative of a 30-year-old Objectivist? I'm going with Messiah Complex, any takers?

VitalSigns posted:

Well, grammatically obvious anyway since it wouldn't really be a minimum then :iamafag:


I agree, Prester John, what is the Inner Narrative of a 30-year-old Objectivist? I'm going with Messiah Complex, any takers?

Political Whores posted:

I think it peaks through whenever he feels accused of racism or whenever he feels accused of privilege. Anyone familiar with identity protective cognition? That's what I see as ultimately the core of all this.

GulMadred posted:

quote:

The most dangerous thing you can do on the Internet is to send your banking information to a mysterious Nigerian prince. The second most dangerous thing you can do is to write even the most tepid criticism of libertarians.

quote:

But there were comments that went too far, such as those that addressed my parenting skills or that examined my decade-old divorce. I was unprepared for the fire hose of rage and invective. In fact, it’s hard to overstate just how furious—and proud of it—this segment of America seems.

quote:

Every badly written blog and hysterical, spittle-flecked Internet video only further proves the point that these people have serious problems.

quote:

The biggest criticism I’ve heard while writing various pieces is that I was “never really a libertarian.”

quote:

I know that I do things that piss off libertarians, because I would have been infuriated by my own observations just a few short years ago. Most of all, I employ the shorthand of using “conservative,” “libertarian” and “Tea Party” interchangeably. Some libertarians think this is unfair to “pure” libertarians, but in reality the lines between these groups have grown fuzzy to nonexistent.

quote:

After my Honduras article, Tom Woods, noted libertarian “thinker,” called me out on Twitter. I called him a “hate-monger” and blocked him. I regretted it immediately. I didn’t know him well enough to sling that insult, so I apologized. A few days later, I read up on his work, and found out that my apology was the real mistake.

quote:

The biggest criticism I’ve heard while writing various pieces is that I was “never really a libertarian.”

Caros posted:

Why I am no longer a Libertarian.

This is a bit of a long winded story, but I'll do the best I can.

I originally became a libertarian at about the age of 17. At the time I was rather troubled, and stressed with the whole 'end of school' concept coming up. My parents are middle class people, but they had never saved for retirement. I simply would not be able to afford school on my own, and was trying for a variety of scholarships, chief among them a writing scholarship.

There were two scholarships, each of which could have paid for two years of my college experience, and in the end they both went to an ethnic Rwandan refugee. I was pissed, and to be honest with myself there was a bit of racism there, as there is for most libertarians, even if they do not realize or acknowledge it.

For the better part of six years I was insufferable. "The government is stealing from us" I cried to anyone who would listen. I participated in forums events like this, was involved in local debates, I even started a local party and ran for office! I got twelve votes!

So why did I stop?

In 2007 a friend of mine became very sick. Stage two lung cancer is a hell of a thing, made all the worse by the fact that she lived in the good old USA. My friend bankrupted herself almost immediately, her insurance more or less flipped her the bird with negligible coverage and like me she was pretty much a minimum wage slave. Then her parents took out a second mortgage on their home. Then her sister spent her entire college fund to pay for more treatment.

In the end my friend spent roughly $175,000 of other peoples money on her lung cancer. Without her family she would not have lasted half as long as she did, and to this day I firmly believe that the delays in treatment while waiting for money, along with the crushing guilt of ruining her family when her parents were left with massive debts in the middle of a recession killed what chances she had at recovery.

Perhaps I'm just a very selfish person at heart, that I only change my opinions when things personally happen to me, but that whole ordeal really shook me. The free market had utterly loving failed my friend and her family, and it had nothing to do with them being 'bad' people. The world wasn't just, people didn't get what they deserve.

More than anything that shook up my life, and the more I thought about it, the more ridiculous I realized it was. My friend would have a good chance to still be alive if she were born in Canada with the universal healthcare I so despised. Her little sister could have gone to college, and her mom wouldn't be working a second job right now still trying to save for retirement. If that can happen to them, it can happen to anyone. You don't get what you deserve.

After that? Well I just started reading outside my comfort zone. It was difficult at first, but the more I considered things, the more I realized how wrong I was. Healthcare has been the biggest breaking point for me, and its one I hope you'll consider, because healthcare more than anything else is the perfect example for the flaw in libertarian beliefs.

You cannot have a free market in healthcare. There are too many inefficiencies, from the asymmetry of information, the inelastic demand, the randomness of how diseases effect people, the terrible flaws and abuses of 'insurance' in the states. And for me above all its the injustice of it all. Why does a rich old man deserve to live more than a 26 year old woman, or a father or anyone else solely because he has more money than they do. Because make no mistake about it, that is what the end result of a private healthcare system really is, people will die who do not need to die, and care will go solely based on wealth and no other factors.

Yeah.. I could keep ranting but I'm done. I doubt simply reading this will change your mind about any of your views, but I really urge you to open your mind and see things from another perspective. You could also search out the "Why I am no longer a libertarian" thread by Golbez on the forums. It was healthcare for him as well, but in a different and less personal way.

jrodefeld posted:

That is a very sad story. I'm sure anyone would be shaken up by such an experience. And I really think this is probably the issue that turns more people to the left than any other in modern times. It is never fair and is especially angering when anyone dies from a medical condition that could have been fixed if only they had access to the proper medical care.

But I tend to think that your conversion was sparked more by anger and disillusionment rather than a rational examination of the policies and philosophic differences between two schools of thought. And it seems your initial belief in libertarianism was similarly sparked by stress and anger.

Jerry Manderbilt posted:

Hmm, this sounds familiar...where have we heard this one before...oh...

shiranaihito posted:

Caros sometimes does a fairly good job of pretending he wants to figure things out through a civilized discussion, but he's just trolling at a higher level. He says he's a former AnCap, but you know once you see reality, you can't un-see it, and you can't just stop being a rational person (barring brain damage). Either he's deluded, or he's a troll. What would the company he keeps suggest?

OwlFancier posted:

Wait, does America have different minimum wages per-state?

ToxicSlurpee posted:

The federal minimum is the absolute overall minimum. States can set a higher minimum if they want. Some cities do as well, actually. In particular some of the very expensive cities have a minimum a few dollars higher than everywhere else. Seattle apparently is pushing for a $15 minimum. There's a lot of pressure overall to increase all of the minimums.

ToxicSlurpee posted:

The federal minimum is the absolute overall minimum. States can set a higher minimum if they want. Some cities do as well, actually. In particular some of the very expensive cities have a minimum a few dollars higher than everywhere else. Seattle apparently is pushing for a $15 minimum. There's a lot of pressure overall to increase all of the minimums.

Nintendo Kid posted:

Incidentally, even though tipped workers formally have lower minimum wags in most states, the employer is usually required to cover the difference between the tipped wage and normal minimum wage if they don't get enough tips.

However, said employers tend to straight fire people after the first paycheck where that happens.

Captain_Maclaine posted:

Usually they'll just repeatedly schedule anyone that asks for the difference in pay onto the least productive shift they can until that person quits, to lessen the already-minimal chances of the former employee making a successful labor complaint.

Jerry Manderbilt posted:

Hmm, this sounds familiar...where have we heard this one before...oh...

ToxicSlurpee posted:

I actually kind of wonder what lolbertarians think about that. When times were good I made drat fine money for being a dude on the bottom rung with no college education. When times got bad I was lucky to break over minimum. It had nothing to do with how hard I worked or how productive I was. People just weren't eating out and those that were were not as willing to pay for it. Every restaurant in the area was having the same problem and a fair number of them closed or moved. It's almost as if external factors beyond one's control could affect their potential earnings!

quote:

That was when I left to unload trucks for $8.50/hour because that was the only other job anybody offered me. I didn't have the money to start a business and couldn't rely on family for anything. Somehow that was my fault, obviously.

ToxicSlurpee posted:

I didn't have the money to start a business and couldn't rely on family for anything. Somehow that was my fault, obviously.

Captain_Maclaine posted:

Well that is generally lovely and all, but you know what would be a hundred times worse? A federally mandated-living wage for all workers AKA state-sponsored violence against the innocent!!!

Captain_Maclaine posted:

Something something time preferences something something

quote:

Put the gun down! Stop trying to make me lead a life where I can't choose to take a job for 2 dollars an hour and be unable to afford food, housing, and clothes.

Caros posted:

Wait is ToxicSlurpee black?

Captain_Maclaine posted:

Argh this gun keeps leaping into my hand, hammer back, safety off, with the hideous voices in my mind whispering "reduced-price lunch programs in public schools help children in poverty attain less-horrible outcomes" and "businesses should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race!"

Help me, libertarians; how can I free myself from this intolerable violent streak?!

Caros posted:

Wait is ToxicSlurpee black?

Captain_Maclaine posted:

While primarily dogwhistle for "blacks are lazy," it can also be applied generally to anyone who's poverty/misfortune you need to explain away.

Captain_Maclaine posted:

Argh this gun keeps leaping into my hand, hammer back, safety off, with the hideous voices in my mind whispering "reduced-price lunch programs in public schools help children in poverty attain less-horrible outcomes" and "businesses should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race!"

Help me, libertarians; how can I free myself from this intolerable violent streak?!

President Kucinich posted:

I saw a mom buy baby food at the store and she purchased it with real american blood dollars.

VitalSigns posted:

Was she dragging around a chained Job Creator and holding a gun to his head to do it?

SedanChair posted:

Guys help me I'm caught up in the game. I'm in 2 deep. No matter what I do I keep going to work and using federal and state funds to house homeless youth. How can I end this destructive cycle of aggression.

Cemetry Gator posted:

Hey Jrod. Do you listen to other people? I always attacked this line of thinking. I'll do it again for your benefit, because if you can make the same argument over and over again, I can do the same.

This work experience does nothing to help you get a better job. None of the skills you get as a cashier will provide you with any of the hard skills you would need for a better paid job. Your only hope is if you work in a place where there is upward mobility in the chain, but for most people, that's not happening. Not without a college career.

The only thing that these jobs provide is money, which can be used to give these workers schooling. However, once again, minimum wage HAS NO IMPACT ON THEIR ABILITY TO BE HIRED.


And is paying them less going to solve this?

jrodefeld posted:

Are you telling me that if an employer is deciding between hiring two different people who are 23, and one of them has worked at half a dozen jobs since he was 15 or so, showed up on time, was highly recommended and responsible and the other person never worked a real job in their life, that the employer is equally likely to choose either one of them?

The specialized knowledge and education that are required for certain higher paying jobs is not really relevant to my argument. Employers use all manner of criteria to decide which person to hire, a great deal of which doesn't have to do with any specialized technical knowledge. Furthermore, there is great value in learning a work ethic and how to interact with bosses and deal with the corporate system, develop people skills and things of that nature at an earlier age.

Let's suppose you start working at a fast food place at 15 making minimum wage. You aren't making much but you don't need much money at that age anyway. After six months or a year, you are given a raise and you make maybe $9 or $10 an hour. You continue looking for different work. Maybe you work at a retail clothing store, a grocery store or someplace like that. You've managed to save a few thousand dollars and so you buy a computer and start learning various skills with software. Eventually you are given a low level management position and you gain some experience overseeing others. By the time you are in your early 20s, you might have some substantial savings, some technical skills you've acquired either at you're various jobs or through spending your salary on education or tools (like a computer) and you've got a more impressive resume that most people your age.

Whether you go to college and gain more specialized skills is up to you but at the least you'll have more money with which to pay for higher education than many of your peers. Then there are trade schools and online colleges that cost fractions of what large universities do but nonetheless give you more marketable skills.

What your argument boils down to is that it is okay with you if State policies that artificially limit the economic opportunities for the disadvantaged result in kids reaching 24 or 25 and having never worked a day in their life.

And here is another point. You act as though if minimum wage laws were repealed, then all of our wages would be pushed down by the companies that employ us. But there is no reason to think that. If we have no minimum wage tomorrow, is the person who is making $20 an hour all of a sudden going to be forced to accept $18 because all wages will be pushed lower? Of course not.

People who start making more than the minimum wage are doing so because their productivity has increased and they can command a higher wage on the market even though their employer is not legally obligated to pay them a cent over $7.25.

If the minimum wage was repealed, the VAST majority of people, including those who currently make the minimum wage, will not earn a cent less. However, new low skilled jobs will exist, more teenagers and people with incredibly low productivity will be able to be hired for the first time.

And people who work for $6 an hour might do so for three to six months and, like everyone else, gain some skills and increased productivity and soon be earning much more. Low wage jobs are supposed to be the first rung on the economic ladder, from which people quickly advance.

Haven't you ever been in a store where there are long lines but only one cashier? Why is there only one cashier? Or they might have automatic checkout machines if you are lucky. Yes, retail stores will need at least one or two cashiers but why don't they have three or four? Minimum wage laws are one reason. The expense of hiring more cashiers, even if it would make it easier for the customers, is not worth it to the bottom line because they would be legally obligated to pay them more than they are worth in terms of pursuing profits.

So we have one cashier in many stores who might benefit from having three or four, we have long lines of customers who'd prefer to get out of the store in a hurry and not have to hassle in line. And in the meantime we have black teenage unemployment at 39% nationally.

This is a tremendously inefficient waste of human capital and productivity. If you give people with no work experience and little marketable skills an opportunity to work, even at a very low wage, you exponentially increase their potential to earn more, gain more marketable skills and get that second or third job.