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VitalSigns posted:The federal minimum wage lies somewhere between "gently caress you" and "crime against humanity" so certain less-lovely states and municipalities have instituted a higher one. You're not allowed to go lower though, obviously. Ok that makes a little more sense at least. Having no national minimum wage would be pretty amazing.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 08:27 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 06:43 |
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Federal min hates state min They have a fight, federal wins Federal min
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 08:27 |
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VitalSigns posted:The federal minimum wage lies somewhere between "gently caress you" and "crime against humanity" so certain less-lovely states and municipalities have instituted a higher one. You're not allowed to go lower though, obviously. In this context, that actually might not have been obvious, given the typical state of affairs for low-income people in the US
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 08:33 |
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I'm glad prestor john dropped in because I really like is inner and outer narrative theory he advocates in the other thread. The question is, what is jrods inner narrative? If only we could find it we might just cure libertarianism by using its root to assault the evil at the core. Of course then I'm advocating for fierce psychological trauma, but considering I've had to read libertarian thought of this nature pretty much all of my life it seems like they started it. Also yes WA state not turning into a hellscape in the past 17 years should pretty much end all the min wage arguments definitively
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 08:42 |
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QuarkJets posted:In this context, that actually might not have been obvious, given the typical state of affairs for low-income people in the US Well, grammatically obvious anyway since it wouldn't really be a minimum then :iamafag: I agree, Prester John, what is the Inner Narrative of a 30-year-old Objectivist? I'm going with Messiah Complex, any takers?
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 08:46 |
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VitalSigns posted:Well, grammatically obvious anyway since it wouldn't really be a minimum then :iamafag: I'll take it like jrode takes a watermelon.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 09:03 |
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VitalSigns posted:Well, grammatically obvious anyway since it wouldn't really be a minimum then :iamafag: I think it peaks through whenever he feels accused of racism or whenever he feels accused of privilege. Anyone familiar with identity protective cognition? That's what I see as ultimately the core of all this.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 09:15 |
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Political Whores posted:I think it peaks through whenever he feels accused of racism or whenever he feels accused of privilege. Anyone familiar with identity protective cognition? That's what I see as ultimately the core of all this. paretto rule like all libertarians, he wants to be a feudal kind
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:08 |
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thank you for making a good post in a bad thread
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 14:42 |
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Remember the Libertarian Honduras Paradise story? Guess what - apparently libertarians didn't like it! quote:The most dangerous thing you can do on the Internet is to send your banking information to a mysterious Nigerian prince. The second most dangerous thing you can do is to write even the most tepid criticism of libertarians. quote:But there were comments that went too far, such as those that addressed my parenting skills or that examined my decade-old divorce. I was unprepared for the fire hose of rage and invective. In fact, it’s hard to overstate just how furious—and proud of it—this segment of America seems. quote:Every badly written blog and hysterical, spittle-flecked Internet video only further proves the point that these people have serious problems. quote:The biggest criticism I’ve heard while writing various pieces is that I was “never really a libertarian.” quote:I know that I do things that piss off libertarians, because I would have been infuriated by my own observations just a few short years ago. Most of all, I employ the shorthand of using “conservative,” “libertarian” and “Tea Party” interchangeably. Some libertarians think this is unfair to “pure” libertarians, but in reality the lines between these groups have grown fuzzy to nonexistent. quote:After my Honduras article, Tom Woods, noted libertarian “thinker,” called me out on Twitter. I called him a “hate-monger” and blocked him. I regretted it immediately. I didn’t know him well enough to sling that insult, so I apologized. A few days later, I read up on his work, and found out that my apology was the real mistake.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 15:48 |
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quote:The biggest criticism I’ve heard while writing various pieces is that I was “never really a libertarian.” Hmm, this sounds familiar...where have we heard this one before...oh... Caros posted:Why I am no longer a Libertarian.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 16:11 |
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:Hmm, this sounds familiar...where have we heard this one before...oh... Also shiranaihito posted:Caros sometimes does a fairly good job of pretending he wants to figure things out through a civilized discussion, but he's just trolling at a higher level. He says he's a former AnCap, but you know once you see reality, you can't un-see it, and you can't just stop being a rational person (barring brain damage). Either he's deluded, or he's a troll. What would the company he keeps suggest?
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 16:18 |
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OwlFancier posted:Wait, does America have different minimum wages per-state? The federal minimum is the absolute overall minimum. States can set a higher minimum if they want. Some cities do as well, actually. In particular some of the very expensive cities have a minimum a few dollars higher than everywhere else. Seattle apparently is pushing for a $15 minimum. There's a lot of pressure overall to increase all of the minimums.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 16:52 |
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The federal minimum is the absolute overall minimum. States can set a higher minimum if they want. Some cities do as well, actually. In particular some of the very expensive cities have a minimum a few dollars higher than everywhere else. Seattle apparently is pushing for a $15 minimum. There's a lot of pressure overall to increase all of the minimums. The $15 minimum wage has been passed and, because the people who passed the bill aren't economic illiterates, the minimum wage there is being raised incrementally rather than all at once.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 16:54 |
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The federal minimum is the absolute overall minimum. States can set a higher minimum if they want. Some cities do as well, actually. In particular some of the very expensive cities have a minimum a few dollars higher than everywhere else. Seattle apparently is pushing for a $15 minimum. There's a lot of pressure overall to increase all of the minimums. Incidentally, even though tipped workers formally have lower minimum wags in most states, the employer is usually required to cover the difference between the tipped wage and normal minimum wage if they don't get enough tips. However, said employers tend to straight fire people after the first paycheck where that happens.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 17:13 |
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Also in California (and maybe other states?) servers get minimum wage at least plus tips.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 17:15 |
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Nintendo Kid posted:Incidentally, even though tipped workers formally have lower minimum wags in most states, the employer is usually required to cover the difference between the tipped wage and normal minimum wage if they don't get enough tips. Usually they'll just repeatedly schedule anyone that asks for the difference in pay onto the least productive shift they can until that person quits, to lessen the already-minimal chances of the former employee making a successful labor complaint.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 17:23 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Usually they'll just repeatedly schedule anyone that asks for the difference in pay onto the least productive shift they can until that person quits, to lessen the already-minimal chances of the former employee making a successful labor complaint. That's actually how the restaurant world gets rid of people in general. I think the only time I ever saw somebody actually get fired fired was when they were caught literally stealing from the place. Other than that it was just cut their hours until they leave. If they don't then it isn't like it matters; you're only ever paying them for like 6 hours a week. Before the economy shat itself servers usually did pretty OK in most places I saw. I made pretty good money when I was a waiter despite the $2.83/hour wage. If you were good at the job you could do well but servers are extremely vulnerable to recessions. Once the recession hit tips overall took a huge nosedive. People weren't eating out as much first off but second off they were just flat out being less generous. I actually kind of wonder what lolbertarians think about that. When times were good I made drat fine money for being a dude on the bottom rung with no college education. When times got bad I was lucky to break over minimum. It had nothing to do with how hard I worked or how productive I was. People just weren't eating out and those that were were not as willing to pay for it. Every restaurant in the area was having the same problem and a fair number of them closed or moved. It's almost as if external factors beyond one's control could affect their potential earnings! That was when I left to unload trucks for $8.50/hour because that was the only other job anybody offered me. I didn't have the money to start a business and couldn't rely on family for anything. Somehow that was my fault, obviously.
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# ? Mar 30, 2015 21:41 |
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:Hmm, this sounds familiar...where have we heard this one before...oh... "If you were a true Libertarian, you would never have changed your mind no matter how much evidence you saw." Bahahaha this is just a bit too revealing.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 00:22 |
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I actually kind of wonder what lolbertarians think about that. When times were good I made drat fine money for being a dude on the bottom rung with no college education. When times got bad I was lucky to break over minimum. It had nothing to do with how hard I worked or how productive I was. People just weren't eating out and those that were were not as willing to pay for it. Every restaurant in the area was having the same problem and a fair number of them closed or moved. It's almost as if external factors beyond one's control could affect their potential earnings! Well that is generally lovely and all, but you know what would be a hundred times worse? A federally mandated-living wage for all workers AKA state-sponsored violence against the innocent!!! quote:That was when I left to unload trucks for $8.50/hour because that was the only other job anybody offered me. I didn't have the money to start a business and couldn't rely on family for anything. Somehow that was my fault, obviously. Something something time preferences something something
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 00:29 |
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My time preference is that it's time for a stiff drink.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 00:36 |
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I didn't have the money to start a business and couldn't rely on family for anything. Somehow that was my fault, obviously. You couldn't get money from your family? I don't understand. Did you forget to ask them? Stop coercing me into paying for your carelessness. Put down the gun.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 00:47 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Well that is generally lovely and all, but you know what would be a hundred times worse? A federally mandated-living wage for all workers AKA state-sponsored violence against the innocent!!! Put the gun down! Stop trying to make me lead a life where I can't choose to take a job for 2 dollars an hour and be unable to afford food, housing, and clothes.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 00:57 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Something something time preferences something something Wait is ToxicSlurpee black? quote:Put the gun down! Stop trying to make me lead a life where I can't choose to take a job for 2 dollars an hour and be unable to afford food, housing, and clothes. Is guilting me to put down the gun coercion? Because it is in my rational self interest to hold you at gunpoint.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 01:02 |
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Argh this gun keeps leaping into my hand, hammer back, safety off, with the hideous voices in my mind whispering "reduced-price lunch programs in public schools help children in poverty attain less-horrible outcomes" and "businesses should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race!" Help me, libertarians; how can I free myself from this intolerable violent streak?! Caros posted:Wait is ToxicSlurpee black? While primarily dogwhistle for "blacks are lazy," it can also be applied generally to anyone who's poverty/misfortune you need to explain away.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 01:10 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Argh this gun keeps leaping into my hand, hammer back, safety off, with the hideous voices in my mind whispering "reduced-price lunch programs in public schools help children in poverty attain less-horrible outcomes" and "businesses should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race!" you are hereby sentenced to exile, and must uproot your entire life to move somewhere that Libertarianism, the NAP, the Action Principle and Property Rights are NOT an established and working philosophy. luckily, your options are literally limitless.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 01:12 |
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Jrod, do you want a $2/hr job? Will you celebrate the abolition of the state by taking you daughter aside and explaining that because of her time preference, she should really give up on this whole high school thing and go get a job as a cashier at McDonalds? Was there a time in your life you wanted to sell youself into slavery but found the state was cruelly restricting your right to do so? How about this; walk me through a day in the life of the person who has it worst off in Libertopia. I'm talking person born into poverty, never even started school, illiterate, DRO blacklisted them after missing some payments, a felony conviction on their record 10 years back, currently lives in a city where racism against this person's ethnic group is commonplace, no social network to speak of other than other homeless folk, medical condition that requires regular doses of medicine to keep in check (asthma, diabetes, born with HIV, whatever), etc. E: To be fair, this person's life would be equally bleak in the USA or Central African Republic, but also to be fair, there are plenty of nations around today I could drop this person in and at least get them healthcare, make it so murdering them is at least on paper illegal, public schooling so they can learn to read, in the near future possibly a nation with Basic Income so they can afford public housing and transportation, etc. burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Mar 31, 2015 |
# ? Mar 31, 2015 01:33 |
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Caros posted:Wait is ToxicSlurpee black? Significantly Polish, otherwise pretty white and a bit Irish just for the record. The former shows; the latter does not. The area of the world I live in has a history of racism against the Polish. It's declining but Poles are second-class whites at best and I have an olivey complexion that makes some people assume I'm stupid and/or a criminal. Captain_Maclaine posted:While primarily dogwhistle for "blacks are lazy," it can also be applied generally to anyone who's poverty/misfortune you need to explain away. I've also lived in poverty and only managed to start college based on a stroke of dumb, stupid, uncontrollable luck. Can't wire home for money and neither of my parents, nor my grandparents for that matter, got a bachelor's or higher. Most of my gene pool is laborers and people that went to trade school at most. I get really, really sick of hearing the "well it's your own stupid fault for being poor you stupid poor" because it's complete bullshit. I also have a history of mental illness so there's another strike. Borderline disorder can gently caress up your life something fierce. People like jrode really piss me off just because their response to situations like mine is "well work harder, you loving pleb." Yup, it's totally my fault I was born in the heart of the Rust Belt; a region known for being very sticky when you try to escape it.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 02:02 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Argh this gun keeps leaping into my hand, hammer back, safety off, with the hideous voices in my mind whispering "reduced-price lunch programs in public schools help children in poverty attain less-horrible outcomes" and "businesses should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race!" I used to be a good boy. I used to have hopes and dreams. Now, I go around, helping people. I insist that the government takes some of my earnings and give it to people who are less fortunate and put it towards programs to help the elderly, pay for medical care for the severely ill, and funding roads and schools. I can't live this way anymore. I don't recognize myself in the mirror.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 03:00 |
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It's okay man, we're all friends here. I used to have ambitions in life. I used to want to one day have more than I have today. But then I got sick and got my illness treated for free with Universal Healthcare. Now I'm trapped in a cycle of poverty because if I can get my illnesses treated for free, why would I want a bigger house, a nicer car, all the video games I've ever wanted, to not have a lot of student debt, etc.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 03:25 |
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What's even worse, as soon as I realized there was universal health care, I had no reason not to get sick! Over and over I kept indulging in the misery that are head colds and the flu; a couple of times I even chose to let melanomas develop on my skin before I forced the public, with a gun to their head, to treat my curable illness! Oh help me libertarian sages, how can I break free of this cycle of violence?!
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 04:11 |
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I saw a mom buy baby food at the store and she purchased it with real american blood dollars.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 04:17 |
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President Kucinich posted:I saw a mom buy baby food at the store and she purchased it with real american blood dollars. Was she dragging around a chained Job Creator and holding a gun to his head to do it?
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 04:42 |
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VitalSigns posted:Was she dragging around a chained Job Creator and holding a gun to his head to do it? God I hope so. I don't know about you guys but my food just doesn't taste good unless I force somebody else to pay for it.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 04:51 |
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Guys help me I'm caught up in the game. I'm in 2 deep. No matter what I do I keep going to work and using federal and state funds to house homeless youth. How can I end this destructive cycle of aggression.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 04:52 |
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SedanChair posted:Guys help me I'm caught up in the game. I'm in 2 deep. No matter what I do I keep going to work and using federal and state funds to house homeless youth. How can I end this destructive cycle of aggression. I'm in the same boat. Every day, I go to work and order in books to the - quelle horreur - public library(!), paid for by unjustly appropriated funds from oppressed, hard-working job-creators and then, to make matters even worse, I lend them out to filthy, mooching proles! For free! Worse even than that, we help immigrants as well! Even when they're from Africa! I... I fear it's too late for me. This horrible, kafka-esque system has caught me in its clutches and I cannot break out. Shameful though it is to admit, I've even enjoyed my work on occasion, when I see some disgusting low-life freeloading immigrant smile when I find a language-course for them... And inside I weep, as I know I've taken away their satisfaction at bootstrapping their way into understanding our language without any outside help or assistance. What have I become?
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 05:37 |
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I used to think of myself as a good person, but once a week for the past 8 months I will put my boot right on the throat of decent hard-working homesteaders and pay fellow gun toting thugs to spend a couple hours hiking and climbing around in a State Park. I know so much more could be made if someone mixed their labor with the land but all I can think of is appreciating the trees and wildlife just the way they are. Learn from my mistakes, don't go to an isolated piece of pristine wilderness, not even once.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 05:59 |
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I'm sensing a huge profit to be made in buying up a street where homeless children are known to congregate, and then renting out the right to kick those trespassers to any guilt-ridden statist looking for absolution for his crimes of using expropriated tax money to help the poor. E: (C) VitalSigns 2015 Original Idea, Do Not Steal.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 06:03 |
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Cemetry Gator posted:Hey Jrod. Do you listen to other people? I always attacked this line of thinking. I'll do it again for your benefit, because if you can make the same argument over and over again, I can do the same. Are you telling me that if an employer is deciding between hiring two different people who are 23, and one of them has worked at half a dozen jobs since he was 15 or so, showed up on time, was highly recommended and responsible and the other person never worked a real job in their life, that the employer is equally likely to choose either one of them? The specialized knowledge and education that are required for certain higher paying jobs is not really relevant to my argument. Employers use all manner of criteria to decide which person to hire, a great deal of which doesn't have to do with any specialized technical knowledge. Furthermore, there is great value in learning a work ethic and how to interact with bosses and deal with the corporate system, develop people skills and things of that nature at an earlier age. Let's suppose you start working at a fast food place at 15 making minimum wage. You aren't making much but you don't need much money at that age anyway. After six months or a year, you are given a raise and you make maybe $9 or $10 an hour. You continue looking for different work. Maybe you work at a retail clothing store, a grocery store or someplace like that. You've managed to save a few thousand dollars and so you buy a computer and start learning various skills with software. Eventually you are given a low level management position and you gain some experience overseeing others. By the time you are in your early 20s, you might have some substantial savings, some technical skills you've acquired either at you're various jobs or through spending your salary on education or tools (like a computer) and you've got a more impressive resume that most people your age. Whether you go to college and gain more specialized skills is up to you but at the least you'll have more money with which to pay for higher education than many of your peers. Then there are trade schools and online colleges that cost fractions of what large universities do but nonetheless give you more marketable skills. What your argument boils down to is that it is okay with you if State policies that artificially limit the economic opportunities for the disadvantaged result in kids reaching 24 or 25 and having never worked a day in their life. And here is another point. You act as though if minimum wage laws were repealed, then all of our wages would be pushed down by the companies that employ us. But there is no reason to think that. If we have no minimum wage tomorrow, is the person who is making $20 an hour all of a sudden going to be forced to accept $18 because all wages will be pushed lower? Of course not. People who start making more than the minimum wage are doing so because their productivity has increased and they can command a higher wage on the market even though their employer is not legally obligated to pay them a cent over $7.25. If the minimum wage was repealed, the VAST majority of people, including those who currently make the minimum wage, will not earn a cent less. However, new low skilled jobs will exist, more teenagers and people with incredibly low productivity will be able to be hired for the first time. And people who work for $6 an hour might do so for three to six months and, like everyone else, gain some skills and increased productivity and soon be earning much more. Low wage jobs are supposed to be the first rung on the economic ladder, from which people quickly advance. Haven't you ever been in a store where there are long lines but only one cashier? Why is there only one cashier? Or they might have automatic checkout machines if you are lucky. Yes, retail stores will need at least one or two cashiers but why don't they have three or four? Minimum wage laws are one reason. The expense of hiring more cashiers, even if it would make it easier for the customers, is not worth it to the bottom line because they would be legally obligated to pay them more than they are worth in terms of pursuing profits. So we have one cashier in many stores who might benefit from having three or four, we have long lines of customers who'd prefer to get out of the store in a hurry and not have to hassle in line. And in the meantime we have black teenage unemployment at 39% nationally. This is a tremendously inefficient waste of human capital and productivity. If you give people with no work experience and little marketable skills an opportunity to work, even at a very low wage, you exponentially increase their potential to earn more, gain more marketable skills and get that second or third job.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 06:15 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 06:43 |
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jrodefeld posted:Are you telling me that if an employer is deciding between hiring two different people who are 23, and one of them has worked at half a dozen jobs since he was 15 or so, showed up on time, was highly recommended and responsible and the other person never worked a real job in their life, that the employer is equally likely to choose either one of them? Tell us again about the negroids and their time preference.
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# ? Mar 31, 2015 06:22 |