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The thing is you can actually play a fighter as a high-damage, relatively high-defense character but apparently he couldn't manage even that.
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Mar 30, 2015 21:56
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You can also play a paladin as a supporter and secondary leader pretty well but the path to that does not lead through low Charisma. e: vvv small saving grace, he's our second defender so when push comes to shove he can do his own thing for all I care. On some level I think it's a refreshing approach. My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Mar 30, 2015 |
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Mar 30, 2015 22:01
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Yeah I know, Fighters have some of the best damage for a Defender in the game and you can, with very little effort, be a real solid facesmasher. That said, if you're playing the only Defender in the party and you're completely ignoring the Defender-y bits in favor of running off and trying to solo everything then you're kind of an idiot and also a bad player, especially when the game provides you with multiple options for "lone wolf run up and sword everything" characters if that's what you absolutely have to play.
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Mar 30, 2015 22:03
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I sometimes wonder if 4e would be played or developed differently if instead of calling it power source and class the books called the same ideas class and kit (or subclass or whatever) instead. It might have helped get away from the idea that being a cleric MEANS SOMETHING when its mechanics can encompass knights in shining armor, wizened priests channeling their god, and a drugged up holy assassin.
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Mar 30, 2015 23:10
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A lot of it simply comes down to "How dare you tell me what to do!" I've seen a lot of 3e fans spew incredible amounts of hate at 4e because it expected people to actually play and act like a team, and not a group of lone wolves coincidentally in the same place at the same time. Lots heaped no small amount of scorn on the "leader" role because literally "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME, DON'T CALL YOURSELF MY LEADER!" The joys of making a social game for an asocial group of people.
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Mar 31, 2015 03:03
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ProfessorCirno posted:A lot of it simply comes down to "How dare you tell me what to do!" I've seen a lot of 3e fans spew incredible amounts of hate at 4e because it expected people to actually play and act like a team, and not a group of lone wolves coincidentally in the same place at the same time. Lots heaped no small amount of scorn on the "leader" role because literally "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME, DON'T CALL YOURSELF MY LEADER!" Not because it's a bad post, it's a good and accurate one, but just because it'd be loving hilarious.
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Mar 31, 2015 03:12
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Some of it I'm pretty sure is less "because 4E expects you to act like a team" and more "because 4E doesn't work exactly like 3E did." In 3.X running up to a dude and spamming full attack was the Fighter's raison d'etre, so of course it should work exactly the same in 4E and if it doesn't then this game is obviously bad and dumb. See Quarex's story in the chat thread about a friend of his who stormed out of a 4E convention game when the GM tried to explain how out of combat healing worked.
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Mar 31, 2015 03:19
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The team synergy mechanics of the leader are a ton of fun, too. I had a real moment of shining on my Runepriest this weekend, mixing some serious damage boosts with a ton of granted attacks. Sort of like a mini-warlord, was a ton of fun.
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Mar 31, 2015 04:39
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Kai Tave posted:Some of it I'm pretty sure is less "because 4E expects you to act like a team" and more "because 4E doesn't work exactly like 3E did." In 3.X running up to a dude and spamming full attack was the Fighter's raison d'etre, so of course it should work exactly the same in 4E and if it doesn't then this game is obviously bad and dumb. See Quarex's story in the chat thread about a friend of his who stormed out of a 4E convention game when the GM tried to explain how out of combat healing worked.  Link?
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Mar 31, 2015 04:47
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Quarex posted:I am not going to get into an argument about 4th Edition because I have still never played anything more recent than 3.5 (not even Pathfinder! Wow!), but my only gaming friends who took to 4th Edition are the only ones who read either this subforum or other D&D stuff online--the ones who hated it were the ones who are never going to spend their time caring what other people think about table-top role-playing. The guy I know who hates 4th Edition the most is the same guy who loathed 3rd Edition so much that after reading the rules he refused to play it until someone made up joke covers for the game to rename it because he was so adamant it was "not Dungeons & Dragons."
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Mar 31, 2015 04:52
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Tell me that the Healadin Who Can't Hit Anything at least took the Cleric MC feat.
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Mar 31, 2015 05:11
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You know how life is full of little disappointments? I think his current train of thought re: feats is "I badly need Athletics training" and I'm making plans to steer that in a more sense-making direction. My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Mar 31, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 06:46
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4e is not the game for people who just gotta fight the system and make guys who are bad at fighting monsters and doing adventures just so the "class" spot on their character sheet says the right thing. I guarantee you could make dude's character as a Cleric and he'd be basically the same fluffwise except, you know, better at the thing he wants to do. Or heck you could probably improve it by doing hybrid Cleric/Paladin. Same armor, same everything, if he's taking skill training feats I'm sure he could spare some cruft for the proficiencies.
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Mar 31, 2015 07:03
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One of the very first 4E edition warriors/trolls on RPGnet around the time that 4E first came out, I'm talking "the PHB1 just dropped and is brand new," was a guy absolutely incensed that the game didn't support his making a Fighter with a Strength of 8.
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Mar 31, 2015 07:12
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I've been the fighter who charges off alone and falls down, but that's because of bad tactics, not some "I'm playing it right, the game is wrong" mentality. I just kept assuming I was tougher than I was, so I'd try to engage everything over THERE so they wouldn't attack the other players HERE. Old WoW tank mentality where our job was to keep everything in a ball far away from the squishies. Thinking about that, there's another event from that time that I never figured out whether it was actually kosher or not. As a wizard I kept one enemy completely occupied because I kept using my turn to ready an action to cast Thunderwave when it got within range. It was a melee guy, the terrain didn't give it room to get around me, and it didn't have enough move to reach me (I'd slowly back up once I found the ideal range). Key here is that we assumed if it charged I could blast it back WIS spaces, and then it would have however much move remained to reach my face and eat it (which it couldn't). Was this a clever way of locking down a flank attack, or did we all read the rules wrong?
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Mar 31, 2015 07:15
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Yeah, that looks like it works fine. But you're locking yourself down as well because there are much more worthwhile uses for a wizard's time than Thunderwave. Then again, keeping an enemy completely occupied is what wizards are supposed to do, so looks like you just found good tactics for that encounter.
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Mar 31, 2015 07:26
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If it's stupid but it works it isn't stupid.
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Mar 31, 2015 07:35
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My Lovely Horse posted:You know how life is full of little disappointments? Except his strength score is like 12 maybe since he's pumping points into Wis and Con? With plate penalties training's gonna be a crappy bandage to a problem where the answer is "PLEASE GOD MAKE A CLERIC." Like, he's a pacifist cleric in every way except effectiveness.
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Mar 31, 2015 09:12
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13, as of level 4! Oh god, I just realized what he's thinking. We have no high STR characters, but he has Bracers of Mental Might and can substitute WIS for STR once an encounter, so he wants to pick up the slack. With what usually is a high STR character. I do wonder sometimes.
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Mar 31, 2015 10:38
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My Lovely Horse posted:13, as of level 4!  D&D causes brain damage. E: though, Paladins are usually high CHA, the STR build isn't as good.
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Apr 1, 2015 18:22
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Technically, I think they're just really good at convincing everyone else that the STR build isn't as good with a bluff check.
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Apr 1, 2015 18:26
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thespaceinvader posted:
Your baseline char-op level is significantly higher than that of the average player, imo. I would imagine that there's an awful lot of Straladins out there because Paladins have always been strength-based in the past and that's the mental image most people have of a paladin. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the most common Paladin build ended up being the Baladin simply because it lets people choose from all the powers.
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Apr 1, 2015 21:44
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Probably, yes. The STR/DEX Elf melee ranger in my group makes me twitch. Especially when the player insists on rolling every drat die one at a loving time and you CANNOT TALK during his turns because he'll lose count of his maths. The STR paladin isn't bad, it's just got a lot fewer good options for actually doing its job unless you're for some reason a half-orc or have a nice DM.
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Apr 1, 2015 22:06
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Strength paladin owns because where else do you get a 4[w] reliable power at level 1. Decapitate for the Lord all day erry day
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Apr 1, 2015 22:25
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Which is great at level 1 and sucks balls past about level 4.
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Apr 1, 2015 22:32
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my solution to that is to play in goon PbPs which never last more than one level up anyway
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Apr 1, 2015 22:46
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It helps that the Son of Mercy is basically "Strength Paladins please apply within"
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Apr 1, 2015 22:59
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thespaceinvader posted:Probably, yes. The thing with CHA paladins is that they have multi-marking, which on a defender is always better than any alternative choice. Strength paladin is good, just not The Absolute Best.
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Apr 1, 2015 23:14
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:The thing with CHA paladins is that they have multi-marking, which on a defender is always better than any alternative choice. Strength paladin is good, just not The Absolute Best. IME, you're not playing your Role with a STR/WIS paladin. Also, you can safely skip the PHB powers that way.
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Apr 1, 2015 23:19
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P.d0t posted:IME, you're not playing your Role with a STR/WIS paladin.
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Apr 1, 2015 23:44
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ImpactVector posted:Yup. They work best as a 5th member off-tank/striker. And for that they are definitely entertaining (at least in heroic). I traded a Blackguard for a STRaladin in paragon, and it was basically the same thing but with more fun and full AEDU. Anyone else have similar experiences?
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Apr 1, 2015 23:55
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P.d0t posted:I traded a Blackguard for a STRaladin in paragon, and it was basically the same thing but with more fun and full AEDU. Yeah, the blackguards are just not as versatile as a regular paladin focused on damage. And even then they don't do that much unless they ignore their own intended mechanics.
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Apr 2, 2015 00:02
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Playing a Str/Wis chargadin is really fun but my experience was that the damage I could do changed every round (creating a lot of bookkeeping) and I would basically sling out all my dailies first fight.
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Apr 2, 2015 00:18
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Are there any people looking for players? A friend and I are looking for 4e games, but places like roll20 and fantasy grounds are all either 5e, pathfinder, or 4e "We start at level 1, no inherent bonuses, no free feats, also critical failures and I've banned sunrods."
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Apr 6, 2015 01:46
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Gharbad the Weak posted:Are there any people looking for players? A friend and I are looking for 4e games, but places like roll20 and fantasy grounds are all either 5e, pathfinder, or 4e "We start at level 1, no inherent bonuses, no free feats, also critical failures and I've banned sunrods." I sifted through the glut of Pathfinder and 5e on my local Meetup groups about roleplaying and asked if anyone was interested in 4e, and I got a response after a couple weeks. I'm joining a game this weekend. I guess it depends on your area but the players are out there. I get the feeling that 4e groups are a little withdrawn, since every time I've mentioned preferring it people always want to start a little edition war of their very own right then and there.
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Apr 6, 2015 19:05
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Lemniscate Blue posted:I guess it depends on your area but the players are out there. I get the feeling that 4e groups are a little withdrawn, since every time I've mentioned preferring it people always want to start a little edition war of their very own right then and there. This. My local D&D facebook group will reliably produce people telling you they'd rather play 3.5 (or maybe PF or 5e) when you specifically post about wanting to run 4e. "Thanks for your input!  "
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Apr 7, 2015 07:26
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P.d0t posted:This. This exact thing happened to me on our local Meetup like a year ago. I don't get it. I mean, I do get it, but even if I were accommodating it's not like having the knowledge and or books to run 4e instantly gives me the same ability to run 3.5. I couldn't run a Pathfinder game if you paid me to, I know almost nothing about the system.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:42
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Kurieg posted:It helps that the Son of Mercy is basically "Strength Paladins please apply within" I built a Half-Orc Son of Mercy Straladin with Psychic Lock and a Githyanki Silver longsword for a paragon one-shot, though I never had a chance to play him. Which is a shame because he could mark everything on the battlefield for three turns in a row, slow and knock motherfuckers to the ground (hello, World Serpent's Grasp), and of course apply insane accuracy debuffs to enemies. Can't convince my group to go back to 4e from 5e, though, so he'll probably won't ever see play, at least not in the relatively near future. They roll their eyes at me when I bring it up. I AM the grognard now. 
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Apr 7, 2015 08:39
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My favourite Paladin build is the Voidsoul genasi one that Sanctions all the things, then disappears so they CAN'T attack him and have to take the damage (and at Epic, IIRC, also get dazed and weakened).
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Apr 7, 2015 23:04
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Tiefling Paladin|Warlock that does absolutely absurd amounts of fire and radiant damage to enemies who ignore their Sanctions for me. Fight me or burn.
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Apr 7, 2015 23:10
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