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TresTristesTigres posted:If anyone finds this interesting here is a good thing to read Okay, can someone explain what the gently caress I just read? Is this an alternate timeline?
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Apr 2, 2015 07:04
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VostokProgram posted:Okay, can someone explain what the gently caress I just read? Is this an alternate timeline? If its about C0DA then yes, its basically a former/sometimes official writer's fanfiction about elves in space. That link is fanfiction of the fanfiction.
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Apr 2, 2015 07:42
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Is the Numidium actually in the game in Daggerfall, or just in the end credits?
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Apr 2, 2015 09:34
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axolotl farmer posted:Is the Numidium actually in the game in Daggerfall, or just in the end credits?
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Apr 2, 2015 09:46
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I do not believe you actually see Numidium in gameplay, if that is what you're asking.
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Apr 2, 2015 12:17
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Yeah, that's what I was after. And welp, the Towers and Stones are Kirkbride fan-fiction. Let's hope that lore actually makes it into TES VI, because it works and is wonderful nonsense.
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Apr 2, 2015 12:20
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TresTristesTigres posted:If anyone finds this interesting here is a good thing to read Pro fuckin click. What made that timeline go differently? Old Septim just losing his poo poo? Or is it some kind of closed time loop in which Talos needed in order to became a god in all timelines, including the non apocalyptic ones of the games? The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion: It's fanfic all the way down
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Apr 2, 2015 12:33
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Strategic Tea posted:Pro fuckin click. What made that timeline go differently? Old Septim just losing his poo poo? I like that it almost reads like all of the games mashed into one. That during the dragon break all of history (i.e. the games) occurred. But after the dragon break time is slowly unraveling itself from that mess and laying itself out in an order that is more comprehensive via the games.
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Apr 2, 2015 15:14
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TresTristesTigres posted:If anyone finds this interesting here is a good thing to read I ate this up. I used to be annoyed that there was no canon ending to daggerfall but i love the interpretation where time is all mishmash and fucks people up. It reminded me of reading old MtG novels, which were bad but awesome. I cant tell if stuff like the warp of the west is really bad writing or really creative writing.(or both)
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Apr 2, 2015 15:39
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It depends how much LSD Kirkbride had that day divided by how long since he last slept
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Apr 2, 2015 15:43
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The Warp in the West is awesome because, let's face it, how many devs would take a situation where they had so many possible endings and just say "gently caress it, they're ALL true." And then actually pull it off.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:16
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Deus Ex 2 did it and it was teeeeerrrrible.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:23
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Mzbundifund posted:Deus Ex 2 was teeeeerrrrible.
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Apr 2, 2015 18:13
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TresTristesTigres posted:If anyone finds this interesting here is a good thing to read This is interesting. In this timeline, Numidium fucks up everything, breaks time and ultimately Nirn, leading to the setting of C0da. That implies C0da is not the future of the current Elder Scrolls timeline where Numidium works just fine.
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Apr 2, 2015 18:25
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Strategic Tea posted:Pro fuckin click. What made that timeline go differently? Old Septim just losing his poo poo? I think the root cause is that Numidium is less powerful in that timeline than it was in the 'canon' timeline. Instead of conquering Tamriel outright, the Numidium struggles and the provinces are able to effectively resist it. The war doesn't end when it should, the arms race winds up breaking the dragon worse than usual, and now Why is that though? I don't know. Maybe the soul powering Walk Brass is different? In the Numidiad, the opening basically states it is Zurin Arctus's soul powering the Numidium. In the 'canon' timeline, it's The Underking's, who may or may not also be Zurin Arctus. I always thought it was great that, 'canonically', there were three to four (Ysmir?) avatars of Lorkhan all active in Tamriel at the same time, who all knew each other and sometimes worked at cross purposes to each other. Maybe this is an exploration of that. Nobody really knows what happened when the Mantella got filled except Tiber Septim, and history is written by the victors. SunAndSpring can probably explain it better than me though.
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Apr 3, 2015 01:52
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axolotl farmer posted:Yeah, that's what I was after. The Towers and Stones is a big part of "canon" Elder Scrolls stuff actually. Like here is the dragonborn prophecy from Skyrim: quote:When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world
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Apr 3, 2015 02:24
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TresTristesTigres posted:Why is that though? I don't know. Maybe the soul powering Walk Brass is different? In the Numidiad, the opening basically states it is Zurin Arctus's soul powering the Numidium. In the 'canon' timeline, it's The Underking's, who may or may not also be Zurin Arctus. I always thought it was great that, 'canonically', there were three to four (Ysmir?) avatars of Lorkhan all active in Tamriel at the same time, who all knew each other and sometimes worked at cross purposes to each other. Maybe this is an exploration of that. Nobody really knows what happened when the Mantella got filled except Tiber Septim, and history is written by the victors. SunAndSpring can probably explain it better than me though. You had Hjalti Early-Beard, a Nord from a Breton island called Alcaire, who was renamed Talos Stormcrown after Wulfharth (the actual underking and most assuredly a Lorkhan avatar) lent him his aid. Zurin Arctus shacked up with them later on and was killed for his trouble and defamed later on after he succeeded in getting Wulfharth's soul into a soul gem to power the Anumidium. Now things get muddled here, because all of them were to one degree or another manteling Lorkhan so the thing that became the Underking was probably some parts of Wulfharth and a lot of Zurin Arctus, but got called Zurin Arctus. And since in Tamriel Form Follows Fable that's what he was. Meanwhile, thanks to Form Follows Fable and maybe because the Anumidium was rushed and hardwired into "you are powered by the Heart of Lorkhan so this mantella must be the Heart of Lorkhan" made Tamriel's Benjamin Washington-Jefferson into an actual god. Perhaps that only fully happened during the time of Daggerfall, because it was only then that all three parts of Tiber Septim were truly dead. Maybe here Anumidium wasn't such a rush job and it didn't elevate the soul gem it was powered by into the Heart of Lorkhan and as such was a whole lot weaker. Or maybe the Numidiad is what actually happened and Anumidium's historical conquest is what the Jills remade the world after they got done fixing the mess. Atrayonis fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Apr 3, 2015 |
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Apr 3, 2015 07:55
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I wouldn't say that's The Truth, because as always The Truth is a difficult concept to define in many cases of TES Lore .Not that I'm saying it's wrong, mind you, it's just that like many cases of TES it's a matter of Believe What You Want To. I've always, personally, viewed that idea, called The Arcturian Heresy, as being more like an in-game conspiracy theory rather than The Undisputed History. As with many things of Kirkbridian lore, the Arcturian Heresy was also an in-universe retcon as to why during Daggerfall only The Eight were worshipped and in Morrowind they were now Nine. Basically since the Underking was still waffing about trying to reclaim his soul from the Numidium, he couldn't join the other two parts of the Oversoul- Talos and Arctus- in the afterlife and unify. Once Daggerfall finishes and the Underking finally dies, he zips to the afterlife, merges with the other two, and together they form the God Tiber Septim. Since TES godhood mechanics ultimately state that no being can become a god, they must have always been a god, history changes, the Eight Divines are time-warped into having been Nine since Tiber Septim died.
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Apr 3, 2015 12:35
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Sky Shadowing posted:Since TES godhood mechanics ultimately state that no being can become a god, That doesn't really jibe with the Tribunal. They weren't gods, then they were gods, and then they weren't gods again. While there probably was a warp when they became gods, there's certainly no confusion about their prior mundane status, nor was there any confusion about them not being gods anymore once the heart of Lorkhan was banished.
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Apr 3, 2015 12:43
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The tribunal where more like demigods or god-like powers or whatever term you want to use though. Yeah they where referred to as gods but that doesn't mean they actually became Aedra.
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Apr 3, 2015 12:55
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Atrayonis posted:Or maybe the Numidiad is what actually happened and Anumidium's historical conquest is what the Jills remade the world after they got done fixing the mess. I'm actually really tempted to roll with this. Numidium destroys the 'non canon' parts of the story (even after the nuke, it heads off to gently caress up the Dunmer on their moon). The Jills follow after it and patch everything back to normal - aided by the Dragon King aka Talos shouting the jungles back to life. I always figured the Hjalti-Wulfharth-Arctus mantling was due to them basically playing out the creation of Nirn; the fact that they were all Shezzarine just helped. Depending on your interpretation of events, one tricks the other into binding themselves to a soul gem, but is then struck down and bound in themselves, too. And Hjalti orchestrates the whole thing, as Lorkhan did. But what if that wasn't enough? Talos has CHIM - he can see the risk caused by the gaping Lorkhanic hole in the pantheon. What if the Numidiad is his hosed up attempt to finish the mantling and keep the universe from unravelling. Hell, the apotheosis of Tiber Septim physically happens in the story - right after he's gathered the most powerful people in Tamriel and forced them either to bend completely to his will or poo poo themselves and flee. Again, sound like something Lorkhan did in the creation of the world? Then, having become Talos, he unbreaks the dragon, has the Numidium destroy the divergent bizarro aspects of the world and has the Jills patch time up again. It's as Vivec describes in his speech - one world destroyed so a billion other timelines can survive with a new god in Lorkhan's seat.     etc
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Apr 3, 2015 13:03
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A.o.D. posted:That doesn't really jibe with the Tribunal. They weren't gods, then they were gods, and then they weren't gods again. While there probably was a warp when they became gods, there's certainly no confusion about their prior mundane status, nor was there any confusion about them not being gods anymore once the heart of Lorkhan was banished. Sorry, I meant by Kirkbridian lore, when someone becomes a god they split into two separate entities, who both always existed. So in a weird way when Vivec, for example, becomes a God, it fucks up time because that's impossible. The only way for time to fix itself is for Vivec to have always been a god. And so the two timelines merge and the end result is Vivec the God takes the place of Vivec the Man. MK lore isn’t my specialty, so this may range from a few details messed up to completely totally wrong.
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Apr 3, 2015 14:41
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Worth remembering that the Eight (or Nine) divines are just the sanitized for consumption syncretic version of the Ayleid elven pantheon with some Nordic elements thrown in (more heavily leaning on the elven side) that the Alessians came up with during the first empire. Some of the eight are represented in other pantheons as similar but different aspects but in other cases certain deoties are completely separate. The Redguard pantheon particularly has a lot of completely alien divines without clear analogs to the Imperial cult.
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Apr 3, 2015 17:01
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Don't those other gods usually have daedric analogues though? I know that's how the Khajiit mythos is, daedra+aedra.
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Apr 3, 2015 17:07
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A.o.D. posted:That doesn't really jibe with the Tribunal. They weren't gods, then they were gods, and then they weren't gods again. While there probably was a warp when they became gods, there's certainly no confusion about their prior mundane status, nor was there any confusion about them not being gods anymore once the heart of Lorkhan was banished. Consider though that the 36 Lessons of Vivec are his own rewriting of history to establish a godly origin story. Vivec did his own retcon where he was always a god.
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Apr 3, 2015 17:09
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Nasgate posted:Don't those other gods usually have daedric analogues though? I know that's how the Khajiit mythos is, daedra+aedra. Some do, some don't. In a way the daedra are more "concrete" than their aedra analogs because they didn't give up their essence (or whatever) in creation so their identities aren't defined by those who worship them but by their plane. The aedra gave up that which is why they often reflect different aspects to the cultures that worship them. This is why Akatosh "is" Auri-El even though Akatosh is pro-Man and Auri-El is pro-Mer and opposed to Man and Lorkhan, even though they are of the same uh, soul if you want to call it that. Then it even gets more complicated with gods that don't neatly fit into the aedra/daedra distinction, the MagnaGe (or whatever they're called) who just got the gently caress out of dodge before the whole mess of convention started. This is how you get princes like Meridia who is now a daedric prince but wasn't always.
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Apr 3, 2015 17:22
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The's only three constants in the mythologies. Akatosh/auriel is time, Lorkhan made the world, and Sithis IS NOT.
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Apr 3, 2015 19:26
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If you hold with the Redguards being from the previous cycle, perhaps their gods are based on a totally different configuration of the original spirits.?
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Apr 3, 2015 19:52
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There was an extra Divine who was not Talos in Daggerfall. Reymon Ebonarm. He used to be sortof the 9th. Then he was completely forgotten about? I wonder if it wasn't his position that Talos took over so that he always was, and if the shrines dedicated to Talos now were actually Ebonarm shrines before the Dragon breaks.
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Apr 3, 2015 21:59
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^^ MK really hates Ebonarm for some reason. Don't expect to see him again anytime soon. Continents-as-amaranths makes little to no sense if it is applied as anything but a crude analogy. It should be considered the kind of poo poo MK threw against the wall that didn' stick. Along with Akavir being literally Japan.
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Apr 3, 2015 22:00
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Atrayonis posted:^^ MK really hates Ebonarm for some reason. Don't expect to see him again anytime soon. Any sources, reasoning etc for this? Cause Ebonarm sounds pretty cool to me. Then again, I'm not exactly a fan of Tiber Septim.. or Kirkbride's weird rape fetish, so I gave up on reading his stuff a long time ago.
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Apr 3, 2015 22:10
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Atrayonis posted:^^ MK really hates Ebonarm for some reason. Don't expect to see him again anytime soon. Well, different kalpas, not different dreams entirely. But yeah it's one of those things that either falls down when you think about it, or falls down and takes the whole setting with it... I do love the idea of the Redguards as hard bitten survivors of the past-future who washed up in the present with no interest in taking poo poo from the primitive local Mer, though. Strategic Tea fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 3, 2015 |
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Apr 3, 2015 22:48
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Ebonarm has never been mentioned since Daggerfall and any old books that made reference to him had those references edited out for ESO. Safe to say he has been quietly disposed of. From what I remember MK hated (or well, didn't want to use) Ebonarm because it felt a little too strongly close to the homebrew D&D roots of the series that they were moving away from for Redguard/Morrowind writing. Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Apr 3, 2015 |
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Apr 3, 2015 22:52
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Moryrie posted:Any sources, reasoning etc for this? Cause Ebonarm sounds pretty cool to me. Then again, I'm not exactly a fan of Tiber Septim.. or Kirkbride's weird rape fetish, so I gave up on reading his stuff a long time ago. Didn't MK have a couple of hilariously embarrassing meltdowns on Reddit over people calling him out about Vivec killing women by putting his metaphorical dick in their mouth? I know he had one about Dark Brotherhood fans "RUINING MAH COMMUNITY!" EDIT: vv One of the Nordic Tongues Vivec battled in the Sermons was a woman who's mouth he had to stuff with his milk-finger in order to defeat. Milk-finger being a penis. According to an IRC chat log of MK in some ES Lore channel he haunts, the "Ebony Listening Frame" used to defeat Wulfharth is supposed to be Vivec's vagina. Not sure how we were supposed to figure that out but there you go. i am tim! fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Apr 4, 2015 |
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Apr 3, 2015 23:12
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Wait wha? I thought that was only Azura? Why does this always happen to fantasy writers i like  it keeps happeniiiiiing
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Apr 3, 2015 23:52
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Strategic Tea posted:I always figured the Hjalti-Wulfharth-Arctus mantling was due to them basically playing out the creation of Nirn; the fact that they were all Shezzarine just helped. Depending on your interpretation of events, one tricks the other into binding themselves to a soul gem, but is then struck down and bound in themselves, too. And Hjalti orchestrates the whole thing, as Lorkhan did. That's brilliant. I never caught that. Atrayonis posted:Or maybe the Numidiad is what actually happened and Anumidium's historical conquest is what the Jills remade the world after they got done fixing the mess. I feel like the timelines are too different to be part of the same kalpa. Since Alduin is defeated in the 'canon' timeline, we know that is The Last Kalpa. So The Numidiad has to take place in a previous kalpa, and it would make sense if Akatosh remembered what a shitshow THAT turned out to be and made sure things turned out different in the next one(s). The Talos Apotheosis is just too scary to repeat. It's like the creation in reverse; they cancel each other out like waveforms. i am tim! posted:Didn't MK have a couple of hilariously embarrassing meltdowns on Reddit over people calling him out about Vivec killing women by putting his metaphorical dick in their mouth? I know he had one about Dark Brotherhood fans "RUINING MAH COMMUNITY!" He's a flawed human, but so is everyone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfX-CMsftWI
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Apr 3, 2015 23:58
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Strategic Tea posted:Wait wha? I thought that was only Azura? quote:Little is known of Almalexia before she became Nerevar's wife. Temple myth holds that on Mount Assarnibibi, Molag Bal oversaw the ninety-nine lovers of Boethiah who gave birth to her. Perhaps Molag Bal's nickname will shed some light on what exactly happened during this briefly-mentioned event The King of Rape
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Apr 4, 2015 00:09
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I don't believe this is the Last Kalpa, as Alduin's soul buggered off after we killed him. If conventional dragon rules are in place, that means he can return.
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Apr 4, 2015 00:15
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Michael Kirkbride is like Howard Hughes, an insane person who created some interesting things with the supervision and assistance of other people and got all the credit. He, like Hughes, has since promoted only his craziest and stupidest ideas as loudly as possible(which luckily is very quiet since almost no one knows he exists). The general idea behind the towers stuff is good, but I hope to god no one ever lets him near a story without an editor breathing down his neck.
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Apr 4, 2015 04:14
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Jaramin posted:Michael Kirkbride is like Howard Hughes, an insane person who created some interesting things with the supervision and assistance of other people and got all the credit. He, like Hughes, has since promoted only his craziest and stupidest ideas as loudly as possible(which luckily is very quiet since almost no one knows he exists). The general idea behind the towers stuff is good, but I hope to god no one ever lets him near a story without an editor breathing down his neck. Yeah he's definitely crazy, but a fair bit of his writing and even posting seems to be rebelling against the idea of "canon" as a concept anyway. The lore kiddies take it as canon because he said so but it seems like that's the whole point of all the timeline shenanigans and far future bullshit and no-one-knows dragon break stuff. There's not just one TES story, like some ~one true zelda timeline~, at least it sure doesn't seem like it.
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