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Angry Grimace posted:At the very least countering the storm spell should have countered the storm trigger. I agree. Mechanics that reduce the relative power of countermagic? Not on my watch! 
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Apr 5, 2015 06:54
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Wezlar posted:Storm is awesome because it's a mechanic that is on its own very mediocre and is entirely dependant on the engine it's built around. The fact that wizards prints cards like brainstorm and dark ritual doesn't in itself make the storm mechanic bad. The enablers are the problem, Necropotence is fine JerryLee posted:I agree. Mechanics that reduce the relative power of countermagic? Not on my watch! WEll I am glad at least someone recognizes the overwhelming power of permission and is crusading to keep it down. Maybe someday, JerryLee, maybe someday. It;s a pretty well known fact that literally nothing sees play anywhere because it was just countered by a Fall of the Gavel rabidsquid fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Apr 5, 2015 |
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Apr 5, 2015 07:10
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whats a good mechanic, bloodrush? no thats for idiots they'll just counter your guy i know, storm, it's good because it might break through the impenetrable glut of prison style counterspell based permission decks running rampant in literally every format, including Mercadian Masques block constructed
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Apr 5, 2015 07:17
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rabidsquid posted:The enablers are the problem, Necropotence is fine
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Apr 5, 2015 07:23
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rabidsquid posted:whats a good mechanic, bloodrush? no thats for idiots they'll just counter your guy apparently you are not aware of how control decks were built before Eighth Edition. They were basically a pile of permission and card draw with some removal and some kill conditions. also there was legitimately a pseudo-prison deck in Masques block constructed in Rising Waters.
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Apr 5, 2015 07:23
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I agree, it's pretty cool for there to be some mechanics that are strong against countermagic.
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Apr 5, 2015 07:24
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Elyv posted:apparently you are not aware of how control decks were built before Eighth Edition. They were basically a pile of permission and card draw with some removal and some kill conditions. I actually play in a lot of before eighth edition tournaments all the time. I randomly chose Masques block for no reason in my joke post and the joke had some truth to it?? INcredible. I actually don't know any pre eighth edition cards, that Necropotence thing was a guess too the fact of the matter is Storm is a good mechanic because Control is bad against it and it edged out a lot of permission style decks from 1996 that keep hurtling through wormholes and winning tournaments over the last 10 years, and making room for creature decks which are the natural predator of storm
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Apr 5, 2015 07:25
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Yeah the dude referencing Trix doesn't know anything about Tog era control decks.JerryLee posted:I agree, it's pretty cool for there to be some mechanics that are strong against countermagic. Though Genesis Hydra is pretty cool.
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Apr 5, 2015 07:26
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If cascading into hypergenesis is wrong, I don't want to be right
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Apr 5, 2015 07:33
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It'll be interesting to see what Cascade looks like if they ever revisit it. Cascade's worst offenders are at least as notorious as Storm's worst offenders, but I think there's more of a sweet spot with Cascade where it's neither worthless nor stupid (stupid in Cascade's case meaning a dumb 4-of that you just faceroll on curve). Something like the two 5-mana cascade cards in Grixis colors (Bituminous Blast and... Deny Reality?) are about where I'd want it to be.
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Apr 5, 2015 07:36
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JerryLee posted:It'll be interesting to see what Cascade looks like if they ever revisit it. Cascade's worst offenders are at least as notorious as Storm's worst offenders, but I think there's more of a sweet spot with Cascade where it's neither worthless nor stupid (stupid in Cascade's case meaning a dumb 4-of that you just faceroll on curve). Something like the two 5-mana cascade cards in Grixis colors (Bituminous Blast and... Deny Reality?) are about where I'd want it to be. Storm requires a deck to be built around it specifically, or at least to be aware of it (like Daniel Zink's Worlds-winning deck with Mirari's Wake). Nobody would just jam Tendrils or Grapeshot or Mind's Desire in an average deck and expect to use it as a wincon straight off the bat. But Bloodbraid Elf for example, or Shardless Agent are pure value. A creature that's already pretty good (BBE) or just decent (Shardless), only you get a free spell out of it. Yeah, it can be crazier with library manipulation, but for no deckbuilding cost (You're still casting the same spells that you put in your deck, just for free), you get on a train to 2-for-1 City.
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Apr 5, 2015 07:51
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Elyv posted:also there was legitimately a pseudo-prison deck in Masques block constructed in Rising Waters. That deck was the most fun I had with Masques as a whole. Rising Waters, Daze, Thwart, Gush, it was like a blue permission player playground. Between Stasis in Old Extended and Rising Waters in Masques Block I don't know how I lived with myself as a blue control player in those days.
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Apr 5, 2015 07:54
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Yes a 3 mana enchantment that let's you draw cards for life is the same as a spell that counts the number of spells you have cast in the same turn let me tell you about my other awful opinions about magic cards
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Apr 5, 2015 08:26
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If I recall right, someone at Wizards was saying that Storm was easily fine and printable on cards that were mostly reactive. Stuff like Flusterstorm and Wing Shards are perfectly fine Storm cards. I doubt you would want to bring it back for purely reactive cards, though. They could probably put enough thought into it to stop the active cards being broken, but it depends on how much effort they're willing to put into it.
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Apr 5, 2015 09:26
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Storm owns because it's using all your collected magic to create a Spirit Bomb to fire at your opponent Goku would play Storm. also creatures get old sometimes and it's cool to actually cast magic spells in a game called magic
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Apr 5, 2015 09:42
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Cascade is awesome because it fits so well in my edh decks. (no joke Maelstrom Wanderer is such a cool card)
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Apr 5, 2015 10:27
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Wezlar posted:Yes a 3 mana enchantment that let's you draw cards for life is the same as a spell that counts the number of spells you have cast in the same turn let me tell you about my other awful opinions about magic cards Yes, that is exactly what I was saying, now you get it!
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Apr 5, 2015 12:41
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JerryLee posted:It'll be interesting to see what Cascade looks like if they ever revisit it. Cascade's worst offenders are at least as notorious as Storm's worst offenders, but I think there's more of a sweet spot with Cascade where it's neither worthless nor stupid (stupid in Cascade's case meaning a dumb 4-of that you just faceroll on curve). Something like the two 5-mana cascade cards in Grixis colors (Bituminous Blast and... Deny Reality?) are about where I'd want it to be. Cascade is a poo poo mechanic in any sense. I can't even fathom how the gently caress it got through design, much less development.
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Apr 5, 2015 13:08
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I feel like you could reprint Storm, or at least a fixed version. Really there's 3 big ways I could see them doing it: Reprint Storm as-is, with strictly worse versions. For example, {3}{R} put a 1/1 goblin on the battlefield. Storm. If you set up your Standard correctly, these cards would be perfectly fair, and most eternal formats won't much care about a worse version of the various Storm cards. Fix Storm by making it all counterable, instead of copies of the spell. For example, {2}{R} Tempest: Put X 1/1 goblins on the battlefield, where X is the number of spells cast this turn. The upside, it makes Storm but weaker. Downside, it makes Storm but weaker. It's effectively a different mechanic, and it's possible they make them too powerful by costing them less. Still, there's more wiggle room compared to original Storm. Alternatively, make only parts of the spell touched by Storm. For example, {U} - Typhoon: Scry 1 (Put a copy of this ability on the stack for each spell cast this turn). Draw a card. The most interesting from a design standpoint, at least to me. The huge downside is that most of the problems facing Storm also face this version of the mechanic, including power concerns. The example card would probably be a tad too powerful, although it's questionable. The upside is that you can print a slightly overcosted base spell and add on okay but not amazing storm parts to make a strong but far Storm card, especially in Standard.
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Apr 5, 2015 13:31
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Wait, Storm copys still happen if the cast spell is countered? Doesn't the Storm effect need to resolve with the rest of the spell?
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Apr 5, 2015 13:57
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BizarroAzrael posted:Wait, Storm copys still happen if the cast spell is countered? Doesn't the Storm effect need to resolve with the rest of the spell? Storm is a triggered ability that immediately goes on the stack when you cast the spell. http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Storm
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Apr 5, 2015 14:01
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They've been burned badly enough by Storm that we won't be seeing it again in Standard until both Maro and Gottlieb are both gone, which likely means never during Magic's lifespan.
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Apr 5, 2015 14:23
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Morph was quite high on the storm scale due to complexity but they brought it back because it does cool things, especially in a 3-colour limited format. Storm mainly just encourages masturbatory solitaire turns so that seems more unlikely. You can make interesting reactive storm spells (ie Flusterstorm) but it seems potentially awkward to track storm count in paper when you aren't obviously going off.
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Apr 5, 2015 14:27
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Closest thing to Storm on the Storm Scale has to be the free Urza spells (Time Spiral, Frantic Search, etc.), right?
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Apr 5, 2015 14:39
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In my mind the fixed version of Storm is spells that still care about how many you cast in a turn, but not in a 1:1 copying way. Stuff like "this spell costs (1) less for each spell cast before it this turn" or "this creature ETBs with a +1/+1 counter for each spell cast this turn" The cool thing about Storm to me is that you're "comboing" spells and these kind of preserve that feeling.
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Apr 5, 2015 14:46
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C-Euro posted:In my mind the fixed version of Storm is spells that still care about how many you cast in a turn, but not in a 1:1 copying way. Stuff like "this spell costs (1) less for each spell cast before it this turn" or "this creature ETBs with a +1/+1 counter for each spell cast this turn" The cool thing about Storm to me is that you're "comboing" spells and these kind of preserve that feeling. BFG Bolt 20R Deal 20 damage to target player. NuStorm This spell costs 1 less for each spell cast this turn.
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Apr 5, 2015 14:55
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jassi007 posted:BFG Bolt Sounds like the ultimate combo with
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Apr 5, 2015 14:57
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The only major mechanic I know of that MaRo has put on the same level as Storm is Banding (the only one he's said is less likely to return than Storm is Bands with Others). Free spells are obviously super dangerous and having loads of "untap X lands" spells in a set full of lands that tap for more than 1 mana was asking for trouble, but they did reprint Rewind in M13 and BTE seems like a kindof similar idea.
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Apr 5, 2015 14:59
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C-Euro posted:In my mind the fixed version of Storm is spells that still care about how many you cast in a turn, but not in a 1:1 copying way. Stuff like "this spell costs (1) less for each spell cast before it this turn" or "this creature ETBs with a +1/+1 counter for each spell cast this turn" The cool thing about Storm to me is that you're "comboing" spells and these kind of preserve that feeling. Permanent-based storm effects, like Kiln Fiend, Prowess, or Heroic are also a fair way to design Storm. Putting it on spells that do anything interesting is a serious no-man's land, comparatively.
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Apr 5, 2015 15:02
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jassi007 posted:BFG Bolt This would still be fantastic in legacy storm though?
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Apr 5, 2015 15:03
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Angry Grimace posted:At the very least countering the storm spell should have countered the storm trigger. Just Trickbind the Storm trigger. Twice. I've done it before, it was magical watching my opponent's heart sink when Grapeshot doing one damage and then getting Trickbound on the Past in Flames Flashback wasn't enough to kill me.
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Apr 5, 2015 15:21
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The "free" mechanic would probably be fine if it just untapped basic lands. It would still be possible to go infinite, but it'd take more work and likely create more interesting deck-building tension.
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Apr 5, 2015 15:38
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Irony Be My Shield posted:they did reprint Rewind in M13 Rewind gets away with existing when all the other free spells don't because it's reactive. Frantic Search, Snap, and the creatures can be done at your discretion, but Rewind needs a spell on the stack to be cast. The most broken thing done with it was in RAV/TSP/9th when it untapped the karoos and let you charge the storage lands while keeping Runesnag mana up, which is more "efficiency" than anything.
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Apr 5, 2015 15:39
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whydirt posted:The "free" mechanic would probably be fine if it just untapped basic lands. It would still be possible to go infinite, but it'd take more work and likely create more interesting deck-building tension. High tide is already nothing but basics.
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Apr 5, 2015 15:43
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The implementation of free spells was hosed up beyond all belief but I don't think there's anything inherently bad about "a spell that requires you to pay mana upfront but gives you back the mana if it resolves". It should really be more of a way to help aggressive decks roll out more quickly (but at the cost of having weaker cards and risking overextension) than a "draw your whole deck" mechanic though. e: actually you really don't want to print too many of them anyway. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Apr 5, 2015 |
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Apr 5, 2015 15:51
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Jabor posted:Sounds like the ultimate combo with Yeah there are plenty of ways to break that card. It depends on what your goal is with a storm-like mechanic. You could make a more constructed playable version of sphinx-bone wand/shrine of burning rage maybe.
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Apr 5, 2015 16:14
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I don't really think there is a lot of design space left for Storm regardless of whether you fix it.
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Apr 5, 2015 17:08
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jassi007 posted:Yeah there are plenty of ways to break that card. It depends on what your goal is with a storm-like mechanic. You could make a more constructed playable version of sphinx-bone wand/shrine of burning rage maybe. Shrine of Burning Rage is already insane. Probably the third best cube card for red aggro decks, and if it were common I'd be running four in Pauper burn. It was even good in Standard, just not quite good enough against Delver/Caw Blade. Reprint Shrine please Wizards.
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Apr 5, 2015 17:12
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The implementation of free spells was hosed up beyond all belief but I don't think there's anything inherently bad about "a spell that requires you to pay mana upfront but gives you back the mana if it resolves". It should really be more of a way to help aggressive decks roll out more quickly (but at the cost of having weaker cards and risking overextension) than a "draw your whole deck" mechanic though. The difference is you have to use the BTE mana right away, whereas with free spells you can, say, bounce a creature or deploy one and hold up countermagic.
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Apr 5, 2015 17:19
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Ha ha, we've got a Hornet's Nest on screen and it's doing a ton of work.
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Apr 5, 2015 17:42
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