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Obliterati posted:The word you're looking for here is milets, the various subdivisions of Ottoman minorities. Paying jizya is an element, as is a modicum of self-governance, plus (in the case of Greek Orthodox) the janissary levy. I'm curious (and genuinely don't know the answer to this): What impelled Albanians and Bosniaks to adopt Islam in such numbers under the Ottomans? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a similar thing happen in Greece (but with expulsion of Muslims after independence, and especially with the population exchange with nascent Turkey)?
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Apr 5, 2015 20:44
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TheImmigrant posted:Well, of course Ottoman and European colonialism were different phenomena. I was simply trying to figure out whether you were making some kind of normative statement with this observation. my normative statement is that you don't know what you're talking about
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Apr 5, 2015 20:48
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V. Illych L. posted:my normative statement is that you don't know what you're talking about This is not a normative statement.
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Apr 5, 2015 20:50
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The che brigadistas strike again.
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Apr 5, 2015 20:53
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E: never mind I got beat.
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Apr 5, 2015 20:54
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TheImmigrant posted:This is not a normative statement. it is! it's just implicit. (it's that you should stop posting)
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Apr 5, 2015 20:55
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TheImmigrant posted:I'm curious (and genuinely don't know the answer to this): What impelled Albanians and Bosniaks to adopt Islam in such numbers under the Ottomans? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a similar thing happen in Greece (but with expulsion of Muslims after independence, and especially with the population exchange with nascent Turkey)? Not my area of expertise, but I'll have a go. One of the main reasons is the janissary levy, where conversion to Islam was required: in the early period of the janissary system, before it became mostly hereditary, these were primary recruiting grounds. Local populations weren't converted: every ten years, a few of their children would be taken away to serve. Survivors would often return to their areas of origin after retirement and build up local dynasties. Straightforward voluntary conversion was usually discouraged as it would undermine the milet and reduce the tax intake of the state: it's not evangelism so much as it is a 'strategic' state-level decision. Paradoxically, then, areas like Albania began to convert to Islam in the late Ottoman period when Ottoman control of these regions was at its weakest. This summary of course ignores the large number of Turks who moved into these areas in the period following conquest. I'm going to stop though now because as much as I love banging on about vague history I suppose this is the I/P thread.
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Apr 5, 2015 21:01
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http://i.imgur.com/I91obu8.png http://i.imgur.com/CWWc3SO.png http://i.imgur.com/u5q5sLH.png
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Apr 5, 2015 21:04
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The Jewish Right of Return should just be called the White of Return
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Apr 5, 2015 21:19
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Disinterested posted:Although in the case of IP in some cases the British followed the inherited Ottoman policy. Even the Israeli courts sometimes whip out Ottoman law if it gets the right result, which is funny in a sort of LF hipster colonialism sense.
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Apr 5, 2015 22:33
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Scoff thread's that way >>>
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Apr 5, 2015 22:52
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Why are they deporting black people for Israel? Are they black jews?
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Apr 5, 2015 22:58
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The ones in Holot detention center are, at least. I don't know about the rest but I'm leaning toward yeah because why else would you try seeking asylum in Israel. A lot of people on facebook who are celebrating this don't want to admit the refugees are mainly jews and they'd rather use words like infiltrator or traitor to describe them. Instead of human or refugee, etc.
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Apr 6, 2015 00:54
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Ultramega posted:The ones in Holot detention center are, at least. I don't know about the rest but I'm leaning toward yeah None of this is true, btw.
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Apr 6, 2015 01:28
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If it's not I'd like proof. The main reason I'm asserting they're mainly jewish is because of an article I read on haaretz that showed passover/sukkot sundries being distributed to the refugees. I get that you're one of the red-text posters people here like to poo poo on and you have contrary opinions, but that doesn't excuse you from, politics aside, lovely one-line posts that reflexively dismiss something. You've been here longer than that. dbl edit: It also doesn't excuse israeli politicians/NGOs organizing rallies that are essentially hate bashes where they demonize the african populace. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 01:36
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fits my needs posted:Why are they deporting black people for Israel? Are they black jews? Refugees fleeing persecution and destruction in African countries. They're typically non-Jewish (black Jews are accepted by the Law of Return, though they face much discrimination within Israel) and usually reach the border seeking asylum. Israel is deporting them because they don't want poor refugees and because Israel's demographic troubles make it deeply unhappy with non-Jewish immigration.
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Apr 6, 2015 02:26
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fits my needs posted:Why are they deporting black people for Israel? Are they black jews? Main Paineframe posted:Refugees fleeing persecution and destruction in African countries. They're typically non-Jewish (black Jews are accepted by the Law of Return, though they face much discrimination within Israel) and usually reach the border seeking asylum. This, with an added dollop of extremely obvious and foul racism on top. The refugees in question are mostly from Sudan (fleeing the wars in Darfur and South Sudan) and Eritrea (a little-known hell-hole which essentially is the North Korea of Africa and where draftees serve from the age of 18 to 55 - even North Korea lets you out of the army after 10 years) and walked across Egypt and Sinai to reach Isreal because they heard there were jobs there. (After a year or so a huge fence was built across the Sinai preventing this.) Israeli officials labelled them "infiltrators", an incredibly historically-fraught term which equated them to Arab commandos slipping across the border, and have never let them work legally, have "encouraged" them to leave, rounded them up in camps, and finally this past month told them to either "voluntarily" leave for Rwanda and Uganda or face permanent imprisonment. The only connection these refugees have with these countries is their skin color; Rwanda in particular has been confiscating the little funds Israel gives the refugees upon landing and kicks them promptly out of the country. Israel has signed any number of treaties obligating them to consider valid requests for political asylum. Thousands have been submitted; the number actually cleared is in the single digits. "Sudanese" in Israel is essentially an obscenity. Politicians compete with each other to insult them and "protect the rights" of the poor Israelis stuck with living in the same area as the filthy, plague-ridden, criminal black people. (This level of invective isn't an exaggeration. In fact it's mild. Miri Regev built her political career on calling them cancer cells.) Basically the entire tale of the African refugees is a case in point of how Israeli society has gone to a very dark place and gets darker every year. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 04:23
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TheImmigrant posted:Well, Lebanon and Palestine, both of which had heavy Christian populations, were not overwhelmingly Muslim under the Ottomans. A large number of people, possibly a majority, in what is today Lebanon very likely preferred the French to the Ottomans. Well sure, privileged minority groups were chosen as the stooges of imperialist governments everywhere, but that doesn't mean imperialism was a good thing, does it? fits my needs posted:Why are they deporting black people for Israel? Are they black jews? Turns out the Israeli population is just a wee bit racist The Insect Court posted:None of this is true, btw. Oh well, if they aren't Jews I guess it's OK to round them all up in concentration camps. Glad to get that clarified icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Apr 6, 2015 |
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Apr 6, 2015 07:09
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TheImmigrant posted:Colonization is okay if the colonizers share a religion with the colonized? It certainly make things easier: the Revolt Risk is way lower and it becomes easier to fully annex or vassalize them afterward. You can also give them the provinces you conquer that have different cultures/religion than yours and let them do the heavy work of chaning the culture/religion of the provinces, as well as gaining less overextension.
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Apr 6, 2015 17:16
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Surprisingly, Abbas has rejected Israel's offer to give the PA all the withheld tax funds minus the amounts supposedly owed to Israeli utility companies. He claims that the amount deducted is a third of the money and that he won't accept anything less than the full amount. He has also threatened to take Israel to the ICC over the withheld funds, but since both he and Israel know full well that the ICC doesn't give two shits about financial disputes, this is almost certainly a bluff intended for domestic consumption. Hard to tell exactly what Abbas' game is here, but it's likely that he's in a position where it's risky to simply back off on the more aggressive political maneuvers he made while the tax money was being withheld, and that it's safer for him to make a show of resistance and defiance right now rather than taking the money and shutting up. It also suggests that either the PA's financial situation is better than previously believed, or Abbas thinks he can get some more international aid and support by threatening to put the PA through the financial equivalent of a hunger strike. http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0MW0JU20150405?irpc=932 quote:Abbas rejects Israel's partial transfer of Palestinian tax revenue
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Apr 6, 2015 19:47
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Main Paineframe posted:Surprisingly, Abbas has rejected Israel's offer to give the PA all the withheld tax funds minus the amounts supposedly owed to Israeli utility companies. He claims that the amount deducted is a third of the money and that he won't accept anything less than the full amount The last I heard, back on the 27th, was that Israel was only returning 2 of the 4 months' taxes while deducting the full balance of debts.
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Apr 6, 2015 20:17
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I suppose taking the money might set the precedent that Israel only needs to fork over the exact minimum amount to keep the PA on life support, since that would be an effective way to starve the PA and keep it from having the money to do anything but keep the lights on. Demanding the full amount may be a way of asserting that the money is the PA's to begin with and is not to be rationed by Israel. Abbas may be playing dangerously if the PA really is close to insolvency and collapse, but then again that might be a useful bargaining position since the mess Israel would inherit in that situation is far greater than the cost of paying out.
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Apr 6, 2015 20:27
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Lum_ posted:
Not really, literally no country likes refuges and skin color has little to do with it. Like the number of examples where there were sizable refuge populations didn't cause huge problems for their host nations is 0. It shouldn't be surprising ethnically or culturally homogeneous countries are particularly sensitive to this issue. Everyone loves to wag their finger on this issue, but notice everyone wagging their finger isn't stepping up to the plate, either.
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Apr 6, 2015 21:11
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Well maybe if democracies didn't act like they're the bastion of freedom refugees from poo poo countries would try to flee there.
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Apr 6, 2015 22:48
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tsa posted:Not really, literally no country likes refuges and skin color has little to do with it. Like the number of examples where there were sizable refuge populations didn't cause huge problems for their host nations is 0. It shouldn't be surprising ethnically or culturally homogeneous countries are particularly sensitive to this issue. Hey not trying to be a contrarian and further spiral this thread into hair-splitting and name calling but when I see videos of israelis saying this: http://i.imgur.com/TpXaeVf.png or this http://i.imgur.com/mJdzzss.png ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff3IA if xander or alhazred or anybody who can speak hebrew can translate this that would be appreciated a lot too because i'm pretty sure whoever translated it probably skewed it to make it appear more severe than it may have been) at a rally it's hard not to think race is the primary motivator. Sorry to harp on the issue so much and I'm aware of the economic realities(they're lovely, like really lovely)playing a major role in the refugee issue but saying "skin color has little to do with it" is pretty detached.
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Apr 7, 2015 01:41
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We shouldn't forget how there was a program undertaken by Israeli doctors where they forcibly injected drugs that cause sterilization in women while treating a bunch of Ethiopian Jewish refugees in those camps. To date I don't believe anything really came of this scandal. http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/
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Apr 7, 2015 01:51
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It's forgiveable to not have read the entire thread but I have and alhazred posted links that followed up with that story and it didn't 'sterilize' anybody. They were given a contraceptive via injection without their knowledge of what exactly they were being administered with, which is a really lovely thing to do and nobody should defend. But you're setting yourself up for not having done the research yourself when you claim they were sterilized.
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Apr 7, 2015 01:55
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Ultramega posted:It's forgiveable to not have read the entire thread but I have and alhazred posted links that followed up with that story and it didn't 'sterilize' anybody. They were given a contraceptive via injection without their knowledge of what exactly they were being administered with, which is a really lovely thing to do and nobody should defend. But you're setting yourself up for not having done the research yourself when you claim they were sterilized. Yes, they were only being injected with substances that prevented them from procreating. The general message is different.
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Apr 7, 2015 01:58
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http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=350154quote:Group of 5,000 Jewish volunteers in British army who served during World War II won't be allowed to march in annual Italian parade in protest of Israeli occupation. Edit: Got angry and misdirected blame. Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 02:35
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computer parts posted:Yes, they were only being injected with substances that prevented them from procreating. The general message is different. As we all know the definition of sterilized explicitly requires that it be irreversible and performed by someone with a snappy black uniform. In the end though its a moot point, the "program" was just a few incompetent individuals. They only needed to make sure that all their medical professionals are aware of new concepts like informed consent.
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Apr 7, 2015 02:45
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Nckdictator posted:gently caress Israel for shouting from the rooftops that "Jew=Israeli" quote:In 2014, a group of pro-Palestinian supporters verbally attacked Jewish Brigade marchers and tried to assault them physically. This year, the Palestinian groups, Fronte Palestina, Rete Romana Palestina, and Rappresentanza Palestina, are among the organizers of the parade. Yes, you've really gotten to the nub of things here and figured out who's really to blame.
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Apr 7, 2015 02:48
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The Insect Court posted:Yes, you've really gotten to the nub of things here and figured out who's really to blame. I included them under "Everyone involved". There's no excuse to attack the Jewish Brigade.
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Apr 7, 2015 02:51
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Nckdictator posted:I included them under "Everyone involved". There's no excuse to attack the Jewish Brigade. Yes, I agree Israel is clearly responsible for pro-Palestinian groups assaulting Jewish veterans and barring them from the Liberation Day parade in Italy. It's just so obvious.
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Apr 7, 2015 02:56
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Reicere posted:Forced ongoing contraceptive treatment is downright clean and wholesome. Note how nobody in this thread has excused or tried to defend this because it's extremely callous. Also after being informed of what exactly was in the injections, a large majority of the refugees then consented to continued injections. If being locked in a 'detention' center and then having to deal with being pregnant sounds in any way ideal you haven't dealt with a moody loving pregnant woman. If we could all just stop with the loving hair splitting that would be great. Maybe if something really horrible happened like another palestinian kid getting burnt to death we could all get behind it and talk about that instead of indulging in pedantry. The Insect Court posted:Yes, you've really gotten to the nub of things here and figured out who's really to blame. Stop tap dancing around and just say who you think is to blame. I honestly don't know where you stand on most of these issues because you seem to post just to naysay someone else and not really present an argument. I don't agree with a lot of what xander has to say but he at least has the balls to state his position on things.
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Apr 7, 2015 03:04
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Ultramega posted:Note how nobody in this thread has excused or tried to defend this because it's extremely callous. Also after being informed of what exactly was in the injections, a large majority of the refugees then consented to continued injections. If being locked in a 'detention' center and then having to deal with being pregnant sounds in any way ideal you haven't dealt with a moody loving pregnant woman. If we could all just stop with the loving hair splitting that would be great. Maybe if something really horrible happened like another palestinian kid getting burnt to death we could all get behind it and talk about that instead of indulging in pedantry.
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Apr 7, 2015 03:22
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Nckdictator posted:http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=350154 When your gut reaction to anti-semitism is 'gently caress israel,' you may need to take a step back and end your statement at 'gently caress anti-semites.' Stop. No more need be said.
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Apr 7, 2015 03:28
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My Imaginary GF posted:When your gut reaction to anti-semitism is 'gently caress israel,' you may need to take a step back and end your statement at 'gently caress anti-semites.' Stop. No more need be said. Actually, after taking a deep breath, I can't believe it but I agree with you on something. That is antisemitism, pure and simple.
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Apr 7, 2015 03:34
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Have there been any good posts ever I should link or quote in the OP
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Apr 7, 2015 03:40
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I was actually gonna suggest earlier to include links to MAPS or UNRWA in case anybody wanted to donate but weren't sure which honky charity to give their money to. MAPS is good people.
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Apr 7, 2015 04:01
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My Imaginary GF posted:When your gut reaction to anti-semitism is 'gently caress israel,' you may need to take a step back and end your statement at 'gently caress anti-semites.' Stop. No more need be said. Yes well maybe you should have carved out your empire in Europe against real A-team armies.
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Apr 7, 2015 04:24
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