Obdicut posted:

So you don't think racial prejudice was a major reason that black performers weren't allowed to play for white audiences, that it wasn't considered decent for white people to listen to black music but instead listened to white versions of black music? It was all just protectionism and the racial element was purely coincidental?

dogcrash truther posted:

You're going to have to help me here. What does "the racial element" have to do with "culture" as the word is used in the phrase "cultural appropriation." In the context of "cultural appropriation," culture means, to me, things like the art, iconography, adornment, costumes, religious and spiritual practices and so forth of a group of people. It seems to me that you think culture encompasses any element of a society whatsoever, including economic systems, racial and ethnic divisions, legal codes...

Obdicut posted:

Okay. So you don't think that a belief that black people are inferior to white people was a cultural belief?

What sort of belief was it?

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

A racist one.

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

They're individual beliefs, Obdicut. They might be widespread in a society, but they're still held by individuals for individual reasons.

Obdicut posted:

Sure, but it's also part of the culture. How else would you describe it?

But yeah, this is probably the disconnect, in that culture is usually described as "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society." or as the modes of thought and modes of action that are required of a member of society to be accepted in that society and function within it.

Obdicut posted:

If you're not going to call beliefs about race 'culture', what are they? What is a belief that capitalism is a morally good system--it's not an 'economic' belief, it's a belief about economics. What about the belief that women should stay at home and men should work? It's a sexist belief, but it's a cultural belief.

If you define culture so as to leave out all customs, beliefs, and attitudes having to do with race, then sure, calling it 'cultural appropriation' is weird, but why would you do that? Why just limit it to the artistic stuff?

Obdicut posted:

Edit:

Oh gently caress, dogcatcher is this really just because the 'culture' that's being appropriated tends to be of the artistic stuff? Is that the confusion?

In that case, isn't this obvious why it's 'cultural appropriation'? Because elements that you agree are part of a culture--the art, music, etc--are being appropriated. This is the name for that. So... I guess i really, really don't get how, if you limit your definition to culture being mostly art, how cultural appropriation wouldn't be a really obviously apt term for when artistic practices, religious customs, etc. get appropriated. Or are we back to "That's a good thing if it creates good art"?

dogcrash truther posted:

That's definitely a workable definition of "culture" for a general-purpose conversation, but in my understanding, it's not the definition that's in play when discussing "cultural appropriation," which focuses on members of one group imitating the art, iconography, clothes, or rituals of another group. As an analytic tool, your definition of culture is so broad that it's not particularly useful.

quote:

When you talk about white Americans, say, "appropriating" black culture, you're not talking about them imitating beliefs or attitudes. You're talking about them imitating music, art, ways of dressing etc. In fact, if anything it seems like it's easier to argue that it was black culture that adopted white "beliefs and attitudes," but I don't think anyone would call that cultural appropriation.

quote:

Well yeah, cultural appropriation is (to me, anyway) obviously real, and obviously happening. But it seems like a sideshow; the problem isn't really that white people sing spirituals or wear dreadlocks or get a "tribal" tattoo or anything like that. If those things are a problem at all, it's in the way that they express and to some extent normalize oppression. They're symptomatic. They're not the disease.

Gantolandon posted:

This is pretty much the main difference between a social justice activist and an angry Tumblr kid. The former can actually see the logical consequences of their beliefs and adjust them before they get ridiculous. The latter doesn't even understand what they preach and tries to compensate it with confidence and righteous anger. If you're ever wondering which type you are, remember this thread - the place where you ranted against racist black smoke and attempted a sick burn by criticizing language skills of a foreigner.

Exclamation Marx posted:

His writing is really dense, but Raymond Williams wrote a lot on culture and the process of cultural change. This from Marxism and Literature seems relevant to the current conversation:

dogcrash truther posted:

Well yeah, cultural appropriation is (to me, anyway) obviously real, and obviously happening. But it seems like a sideshow; the problem isn't really that white people sing spirituals or wear dreadlocks or get a "tribal" tattoo or anything like that. If those things are a problem at all, it's in the way that they express and to some extent normalize oppression. They're symptomatic. They're not the disease.

Effectronica posted:

What's real leftism, then?

SedanChair posted:

Yes, let's educate ourselves about them, using means like that article.

The Insect Court posted:

For example, engaging in online sockpuppeting by appropriating the identity of marginalized group in the attempt to give more weight to lovely ideas. Like MRA types who pretend to be women in comments sections and on twitter. Or white engaged in digital blackface who play on "magic negro' style black stereotypes about the superior spiritual sensitivity or authenticity of people of color.

The Insect Court posted:

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of ohmigod brandon that Chinese or Mexican or whatever ideogram tattoo is racist you're triggering me


For example, engaging in online sockpuppeting by appropriating the identity of marginalized group in the attempt to give more weight to lovely ideas. Like MRA types who pretend to be women in comments sections and on twitter. Or white engaged in digital blackface who play on "magic negro' style black stereotypes about the superior spiritual sensitivity or authenticity of people of color.

tsa posted:

There's actually no evidence it causes problems, one could easily just wave their hands and say it actually improves outcomes because it brings cultures closer together.


A Good post. It really does seem like a lot of the most strident people screaming about social justice only really do so because it gives them a way to internally justify being an rear end in a top hat to everyone else they don't like.

echinopsis posted:

SedanChair posted:

Haha no, those are terrible.

The Insect Court posted:

I agree, anyone engaging in that sort of behavior is terrible and probably a racist and deserves to be called out for the problematic behavior

7c Nickel posted:

Boy, that no context image of a tumblr sure has changed my views. Even though I have no evidence, I'm sure it's not just an anti SJW fakepost from an 8chan idiot.

FINGERBLASTER69 posted:

I was reading that learning another language is cultural appropriation. Is that true?

Effectronica posted:

All right, we've got the straight line here with "Heh, those, uh, I can't say the f-word can I, well those don't know poo poo about poo poo", and then the punchline right afterwards. This is a drat fine joke.


It really seems like most of the people who jump in to whine about whatever bit of liberalism is political correctness gone mad have no real ideology beyond hatred and contempt. For example, people whose standards of judgement are only ever the ones they think the people arguing with them have, like Gantolandon, and apparently yourself.

Gantolandon posted:

There is a lot of projecting here, given that you keep claiming I accused you of racism, instead of being a hypocrite.

Gantolandon posted:

That's pretty much SJW.txt - the notion that a guy whose grandparents immigrated to the States from Osaka, doesn't speak Japanese and has never been in Asia, somehow gets more right to decide who can use kanji than a person born and raised in Japan.

Effectronica posted:

You called everyone in here a racist if they didn't agree with you, implicitly, in this post.

Miltank posted:

Is it wrong because he didn't do it explicitly like you do?

Xibanya posted:

On the whole engagement ring discussion, I don't think the practice has become totally pointless yet as some have theorized. I and most of my female friends would indeed desire an engagement ring because in our society women still have the most to lose from a relationship. Social implications like "used goods," etc aside, being in a long term relationship has economic costs for a woman. Basically, the fact that women tend to make less means it makes more sense to put all your eggs in the dude's career basket, leading to a vicious cycle where the male partner starts to make more and more than the female partner. That's the real cost to the woman if the relationship goes south. I know that I have given up some career opportunities in order to stay in the same locality so that my boyfriend can continue to advance in his own career. If he can't cough up a measly ring I can show my parents, colleagues, and friends if we get engaged, I'll feel humiliated. In other words, I'll end up giving up tens of thousands of dollars on his behalf. He should show how serious he is by tossing out a few thou to the altar of the diamond God or whatever.

I don't think most women can or will articulate it that way, but there is a sense that the dude has to provide a real and material sacrifice to show that he means business. In that regard, not too much has changed, and not much will until women earn as much as men AND men's careers are equally likely to take a back seat.

Anecdote - my sister had a POS bum of a boyfriend who would ask her to marry him every time they had a fight. They broke up after maybe 2 years of lovely dating. Maybe if he had coughed up a ring...well, he'd have to have a steady job first. Which brings me back to that ring thing.

Xibanya posted:

On the whole engagement ring discussion, I don't think the practice has become totally pointless yet as some have theorized. I and most of my female friends would indeed desire an engagement ring because in our society women still have the most to lose from a relationship. Social implications like "used goods," etc aside, being in a long term relationship has economic costs for a woman. Basically, the fact that women tend to make less means it makes more sense to put all your eggs in the dude's career basket, leading to a vicious cycle where the male partner starts to make more and more than the female partner. That's the real cost to the woman if the relationship goes south. I know that I have given up some career opportunities in order to stay in the same locality so that my boyfriend can continue to advance in his own career. If he can't cough up a measly ring I can show my parents, colleagues, and friends if we get engaged, I'll feel humiliated. In other words, I'll end up giving up tens of thousands of dollars on his behalf. He should show how serious he is by tossing out a few thou to the altar of the diamond God or whatever.

I don't think most women can or will articulate it that way, but there is a sense that the dude has to provide a real and material sacrifice to show that he means business. In that regard, not too much has changed, and not much will until women earn as much as men AND men's careers are equally likely to take a back seat.

Anecdote - my sister had a POS bum of a boyfriend who would ask her to marry him every time they had a fight. They broke up after maybe 2 years of lovely dating. Maybe if he had coughed up a ring...well, he'd have to have a steady job first. Which brings me back to that ring thing.

Brannock posted:

FINGERBLASTER69 posted:

These are amazing. Are there more?

Zeitgueist posted:

Welp we have solved it, cultural appropriation doesn't exist because somebody did an image.

Miltank posted:

It exists, it just doesn't matter.

Miltank posted:

Maybe if native Americans weren't living in hopeless ghettos their culture wouldn't be threatened by hipsters?