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Pretty much every successful empire ever rose to power because it learned how to appropriate cultures. Still haven't seen any concrete solution in this thread on how to stop that, or discourage people from doing it.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:16
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Zeitgueist posted:Actually I don't think anybody was hand-wringing about first nations groups selling their own poo poo, the only person who complained about that was arguing that CA doesn't exist. So it's okay if someone buys a headdress from First Nations, and wears it to a football game? Also, dude/duda/dudot, you shouldn't call goods produced by First Nations (also, you should Capitalize) 'poo poo.' Like, racism.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:17
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Bro Dad posted:I volunteer and help organize local Native American groups and most of them get a lot of their income from making traditional handicrafts and clothes, so its hilarious there's so much hand-wringing about this by white people so desperate to be seen as one of the good ones. Nobody cares who is wearing headdresses and dream catchers because it turns out they need income more than some outsider's romanticized idea of their own culture. as someone who volunteers with impoverished shitpostless urban youths who never knew their fathers or good posting, i deeply resent the quoted post
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Apr 7, 2015 19:18
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hakimashou posted:This is just writing "I like food, so we aren't going to count food" using different words. Oh well? Really, I could care less until a signifigant portion of whatever culture in question has a problem with it.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:19
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Gantolandon posted:Who are you to decide what a decent reason is, you goddamn reactionary!? I'm not, is up to the offender and offendee to come to terms about why they may find the usage of things difficult. I was trying to avoid anything too contentious but I didn't want to basically throw "piss christ" under a buss for the sake of an overarching idea. Basically being "offended" by something is not necessarily invalidating of the thing that made you angry BUT it is up to both sides to make their cases and try and understand each other and not act like dicks. That's the idea anyway, I am none too sure about putting it all together.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:20
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Zeitgueist posted:Actually I don't think anybody was hand-wringing about first nations groups selling their own poo poo, the only person who complained about that was arguing that CA doesn't exist. Except you actually go to these reservations and see that most of the customers are those hipsters you hate and the occasional wholesaler. So how do you know those things weren't produced by an "authentic" native? You don't. So in that sense yeah they were completely correct in that cultural appropriation doesn't exist because how the gently caress do you tell something is authentic to that culture just because of who is wearing it.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:21
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TheImmigrant posted:So it's okay if someone buys a headdress from First Nations, and wears it to a football game? No the person buying that poo poo is appropriating probably, and so are companies making knockoffs I dunno if guy getting drunk and complain that people want to change the redskins name is celebrating the rich history and culture of the people he picked up the headdress from, though
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Apr 7, 2015 19:23
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Zeitgueist posted:No the person buying that poo poo is appropriating probably, and so are companies making knockoffs I'm glad you decided are the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not offensive to cultural groups you aren't a member of.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:24
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Bro Dad posted:Except you actually go to these reservations and see that most of the customers are those hipsters you hate and the occasional wholesaler. So how do you know those things weren't produced by an "authentic" native? You don't. So in that sense yeah they were completely correct in that cultural appropriation doesn't exist because how the gently caress do you tell something is authentic to that culture just because of who is wearing it. Yes hipsters buying native apparel disproves appropriation.  Bro Dad posted:I'm glad you decided are the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not offensive to cultural groups you aren't a member of. I'm not though. I never told anybody what was offensive, nor am I even the ultimate arbiter of appropriation. I dunno, maybe try to have a conversation rather than try and score points? 
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Apr 7, 2015 19:25
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Doesn't prove it either unless you're in the room with an e-meter to measure how racist people are. Also you realize that nobody is being forced to make and sell jewelry right?
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Apr 7, 2015 19:26
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Bro Dad posted:I'm glad you decided are the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not offensive to cultural groups you aren't a member of. haha you're angry that someone has opinions simmer down bro dad
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Apr 7, 2015 19:26
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Venom Snake posted:Pretty much every successful empire ever rose to power because it learned how to appropriate cultures. Still haven't seen any concrete solution in this thread on how to stop that, or discourage people from doing it. It's not that they even had to especially try. One of the perks of being an empire is that your culture spreads faster and reaches more people. It's more inevitable than capitalism, because non-capitalist economic systems actually existed. Yet people still think it's an easier target and you can fight it by shaming enough people for wearing war bonnets.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:27
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Cultures suffering from appropriation should just build more culture buildings like monuments
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Apr 7, 2015 19:28
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Popular Thug Drink posted:haha you're angry that someone has opinions No, we're doing that thing where we try and prove that people discussiong racism poo poo are the real racists, because that people who get real mad about "SJWs" think that's some sort of trump card if they can rig up the correct gotcha.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:28
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Cultures suffering from appropriation should just build more culture buildings like monuments Don't forget Great Works they're gonna boost your Tourism score
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Apr 7, 2015 19:30
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Zeitgueist posted:No, we're doing that thing where we try and prove that people discussiong racism poo poo are the real racists, because that people who get real mad about "SJWs" think that's some sort of trump card if they can rig up the correct gotcha. More like "I know what is appropriation better than these people" but thanks for playing. Sorry you assume that everyone who disagrees with is some kind of bigot 
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Apr 7, 2015 19:32
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Gantolandon posted:It's not that they even had to especially try. One of the perks of being an empire is that your culture spreads faster and reaches more people. It's more inevitable than capitalism, because non-capitalist economic systems actually existed. Yet people still think it's an easier target and you can fight it by shaming enough people for wearing war bonnets. People don't like being ruled by different looking/acting people. All the successful empires realized this and that to stay in power they needed to appropriate the local customs and ideas, this would naturally lead to things like food and dress being appropriated as well. The greatest form of cultural appropriation is the co-opting of culture for an agenda which is what you want to do to motivate people or make them like your ideas and goals more.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:33
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Bro Dad posted:More like "I know what is appropriation better than these people" but thanks for playing. Sorry you assume that everyone who disagrees with is some kind of bigot You're projecting all sorts of poo poo on me that I'm not saying, kinda feels like you came in here with a chip on your sholder and an idea about posters that isn't based on their actual responses. 
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Apr 7, 2015 19:36
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"Guys I went into the CA thread and Zeitgueist was literally saying he was an expert on native culture and then he punched a granny on reservation soil!"
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Apr 7, 2015 19:38
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Zeitgueist posted:You're projecting all sorts of poo poo on me that I'm not saying, kinda feels like you came in here with a chip on your sholder and an idea about posters that isn't based on their actual responses. You straight up said that someone buying native jewelry is appropriation even if sold by the group that makes it. Please stop arguing with the strawman only you can see. Zeitgueist posted:"Guys I went into the CA thread and Zeitgueist was literally saying he was an expert on native culture and then he punched a granny on reservation soil!" ....and there we go.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:39
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Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah oh deary me we shouldn't talk about academic language in a thread asking for an explanation of academic language I am for talking about academic language. In this case, the academic language is worthless outside of the anthropological study of consumerism. That is what I am saying about it.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:42
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Bro Dad posted:You straight up said that someone buying native jewelry is appropriation even if sold by the group that makes it. Please stop arguing with the strawman only you can see.  I said it can be appropriation. I didn't say anything about appropriation having to be inauthentically sourced. Like I said if you want to actually have a conversation maybe things will go anywhere but if you want to be really mad at the things you want me to say wouldn't it be easier to write both sides yourself?
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Apr 7, 2015 19:44
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This just in: Bro Dad says "I have Native Friends and they are 100% OK with white people doing whatever they want with their culture no matter what." Man that is some poo poo right there, bro dad.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:48
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Zeitgueist posted:
You said it was probably appropriation. Could you give an example of how it would and wouldn't be appropriation? e: assume that the headdress is made and sold by natives, and that natives will receive 100% of the profits.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:51
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Zeitgueist posted:
What does inauthentically mean? Did you forget to type the word "exotic" in "inauthentically exotic?" Or did you deliberately leave it out?
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Apr 7, 2015 19:52
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Miltank posted:You said it was probably appropriation. Could you give an example of what would and wouldn't be appropriation? Appropriation = when they do it. Not appropriation = when I do it.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:52
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Zeitgueist posted:
So you admit you have no idea what the hell cultural appropriation is. Good to know. quote:Like I said if you want to actually have a conversation maybe things will go anywhere but if you want to be really mad at the things you want me to say wouldn't it be easier to write both sides yourself? uhh Zeitgueist posted:No, we're doing that thing where we try and prove that people discussiong racism poo poo are the real racists, because that people who get real mad about "SJWs" think that's some sort of trump card if they can rig up the correct gotcha. Zeitgueist posted:"Guys I went into the CA thread and Zeitgueist was literally saying he was an expert on native culture and then he punched a granny on reservation soil!" Zeitgueist posted:This just in: Bro Dad says "I have Native Friends and they are 100% OK with white people doing whatever they want with their culture no matter what."
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Apr 7, 2015 19:53
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Bro Dad posted:So you admit you have no idea what the hell cultural appropriation is. Good to know. you're literally arguing about the way you are arguing. you are doing nothing but making the thread worse. thanks that is my take on it.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:56
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Bro Dad posted:So you admit you have no idea what the hell cultural appropriation is. Good to know. Nah I think you don't, I've posted the wiki definition like 2 times in this thread quote:uhh Yeah when you started doing that poo poo I decided to do it to you in the hopes that you'd understand the turnaround rather than whine about it but I guess I overestimated you
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Apr 7, 2015 19:59
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Cole posted:you are doing nothing but making the thread worse.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:59
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah when you started doing that poo poo I decided to do it to you in the hopes that you'd understand the turnaround rather than whine about it but I guess I overestimated you The noble shitpost, a classic maneuver
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Apr 7, 2015 20:03
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah when you started doing that poo poo I decided to do it to you in the hopes that you'd understand the turnaround rather than whine about it but I guess I overestimated you I was just pointing out that you can't accuse someone of not arguing in good faith while also posting flailing histrionics about SJWs and punching grandmothers.
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Apr 7, 2015 20:11
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Bro Dad posted:I was just pointing out that you can't accuse someone of not arguing in good faith while also posting flailing histrionics about SJWs and punching grandmothers. *flailing* *knocked off balance by the incisive posting of Bro Dad*
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Apr 7, 2015 20:14
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah when you started doing that poo poo I decided to do it to you in the hopes that you'd understand the turnaround rather than whine about it but I guess I overestimated you This is idiotically childish. No wonder you constantly think no one ever is interested in having a Real Discussion.
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Apr 7, 2015 20:15
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Look at this scrub who doesn't reply in earnest to my willful misinterpretation of his argument. I guess the real problem is him.  Brannock posted:This is idiotically childish. No wonder you constantly think no one ever is interested in having a Real Discussion. Nobody in this thread was ever interested in a real discussion, we're literally arguing whether Cultural Appropriation is extant, of how awesome it is if it does exist. That's a pretty stupid thread and the moment it starts to go anywhere vaguely interesting somebody comes in to concern troll it back to basic concepts. It was a thread started by a concern troll. I'm simply pointing out the disingenguous posts. Never said I was a better person than that. Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 20:16
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Bro Dad posted:I was just pointing out that you can't accuse someone of not arguing in good faith while also posting flailing histrionics about SJWs and punching grandmothers. Could we please filter "histrionics" to "offending me" from now on?
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Apr 7, 2015 20:16
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Venom Snake posted:People don't like being ruled by different looking/acting people. All the successful empires realized this and that to stay in power they needed to appropriate the local customs and ideas, this would naturally lead to things like food and dress being appropriated as well. The greatest form of cultural appropriation is the co-opting of culture for an agenda which is what you want to do to motivate people or make them like your ideas and goals more. Except that this presents it as more intentional and shrewd than it usually is. People just like to spread their cultures, no matter what. Cultures have to promote being spread, because without new people they are going to stagnate and die. When two cultures intersect, the only way the ideas from one culture could enter the other is to make them more palatable. Or rather - the ideas that aren't palatable enough don't get an influx of new hosts who could spread them even further. This is how a lot of historical cultural appropriation used to be done - Roman adopting gods of the conquered people to their pantheons, or Christian missionaries adopting native legends to their religion. There were probably many Romans and Christians who didn't want to dilute their message, but it didn't matter because there were some who did and their ideas were the ones that got spread. There is also the matter of cultures being closely connected with economic systems, which are in turn hard to separate from material world. Adopting the dominant culture is easier, because you can find its traces everywhere around you. It is also a no-brainer - it means more opportunities, more social contacts, better access to goods, etc. Everything else becomes a non-concern. Trying to preserve a culture without giving it their own resources and leaving it relatively isolated (so it could develop its own economy) is impossible. Without this, those cultures will inevitably dissolve, leaving at best some ideas without context that are going to be picked up by the dominant culture. That's why fighting cultural appropriation is pointless. It's not what causes minority cultures to dissolve, it's just a symptom of their dissolution.
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Apr 7, 2015 20:22
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Is drinking coffee cultural appropriation?
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Apr 7, 2015 20:24
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Gantolandon posted:Except that this presents it as more intentional and shrewd than it usually is. People just like to spread their cultures, no matter what. Cultures have to promote being spread, because without new people they are going to stagnate and die. This is why the Holocaust never happened- Jews and Roma are a fiction, a fable, having been assimilated centuries beforehand.
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Apr 7, 2015 20:24
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Guys is posting appropriation.
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Apr 7, 2015 20:25
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