|
I want all these extreme paladin builds. Void paladin of disappearing and the super burning people who ignore my mark paladin. I love defenders, but I've never played a paladin.
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 02:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 05:39 |
|
|
Divine Power had a pretty nice section with various codes and motivations for your divine characters based on deities. My two favorites were Corellon and Sehanine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 06:27
|
|
|
Tiefling one is easy. Throughout Heroic it's just a standard hybrid; you want to use a mix of defender-esque warlock powers and mass sanction paladin powers. Absolutely - ABSOLUTELY - multiclass into fighter. It "unlocks" in paragon; first feat, no question, is twofold pact for Elemental Pact; now every time you curse someone after you get your pact boon, they take a huge vulnerability to elemental damage (use your second one to keep it on Fire). The second part of the combo is to use that multiclass and take either Avernian Knight or Tiefling Warfiend; now your sanctions do both a smack of radiant damage AND a smack of fire damage. That they're now vulnerable to. At level 11, assuming Avernian Knight, your mark is doing 6 + Cha + 5 + Con + 10, plus you should have a Symbol of Champion's Code; you should be doing more then 30 each time. Now, this explodes even further against radiant vulnerable enemies. If any of your allies has a means to make enemies vulnerable to radiant, consider making Pelor your god and grabbing his boon. Under this situation, your mark is doing two full hits. (6+Cha+Vul+Con)+(5+Con+10+Con) in paragon for mark disobeying after marking a large swathe of enemies isn't something to frown at! As you can see, you can start ramping up the mark damage rather brutally. Then of course in Epic you're also weakening them. Now add in allies who can force enemies to disobey marks and you're having a grand ol' time!
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 06:27
|
|
|
LightWarden posted:Divine Power had a pretty nice section with various codes and motivations for your divine characters based on deities. My two favorites were Corellon and Sehanine. Sehanine had some fun powers too, including one that lets you attack at range by hurling a moon shaped crescent of energy by slashing your sword.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 07:02
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:My favourite Paladin build is the Voidsoul genasi one that Sanctions all the things, then disappears so they CAN'T attack him and have to take the damage (and at Epic, IIRC, also get dazed and weakened). Had a friend who ran a paladin who just turned invisible all the time and had baller AC to begin with.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 07:07
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Sehanine had some fun powers too, including one that lets you attack at range by hurling a moon shaped crescent of energy by slashing your sword. I remember there being a normal paladin move like that, I think, because my Raven Queen Samurai Paladin was incredibly anime, so I HAD to have that power.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 15:50
|
|
|
Prison Warden posted:I remember there being a normal paladin move like that, I think, because my Raven Queen Samurai Paladin was incredibly anime, so I HAD to have that power. Yep, even had Crescent in the name if I remember correctly. 10 square range on swords AND applies a sanction.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 16:10
|
|
|
It wasn't a Sehanine exclusive move, it was just included in her supplement.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 16:12
|
|
|
Gharbad the Weak posted:I want all these extreme paladin builds. Void Defender for your edification. Mellored on the Wizards forum is some sort of crazy genius when it comes to CharOp; a lot of the most hilarious builds like this are his. E: turns out my memory is entirely faulty and this isn't actually a Paladin... at all. It's a Fighter|Warden/Druid, of all things. Still hilarious though. And a Voidsoul Paladin could do most of the tricks without being quite as broken. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Apr 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 17:29
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Sehanine had some fun powers too, including one that lets you attack at range by hurling a moon shaped crescent of energy by slashing your sword.  Why'd it have to be Strength-based?  (The article also had a Charisma-based sanction attack that gave paladins an option at range- but it required a bow, which paladins aren't proficient with.) For added fun, roll around in either Imposter's or Summoned armor and you can even transform as a minor action.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 17:58
|
|
|
LightWarden posted:
 I'm not saying it's a good idea, but there was a whole series of "divine people with bow" powers attributed to sehanine. The dumbest thing they did was create the silvery glow feat, which is an amazing damage boost feat, and limit it to only those who worship sehanine. I've got a lot of characters that just pay lip service to sehanine as long as she boosts their radiant and cold damage.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 18:11
|
|
|
Bow implement can work for clerics and invokers who can operate entirely from implement attacks, but a bow is bad for avengers and paladins because they can't be entirely implement based, don't have ranged weapon attacks and the paladin would have to sacrifice a shield. It's a pity, because with some extra support in the form of a few at-wills and some patches for a few levels a paladin could be an all-implement defender build; you could even make a bunch of implement powers that require a shield since holy symbols are hands-free and thus you could have shield attacks without suffering from the fighter's accuracy and damage problems. I also have a fair amount of Sehanine characters due to Silvery Glow, but that is ok because she is the best goddess.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 18:19
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:
The silvery glow problem was somewhat fixed by Icy Heart.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 18:20
|
|
|
Radiant users still had problems since most of the best radiant support was with Pelor/Amaunator and thus conflicted with worshipping Sehanine, leaving you with the inferior choice of Astral Fire or some form of Focus feat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 18:22
|
|
|
My favorite was a Warpriest with the Selune domain who worshipped Sehanine because it covered every single power he had.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 18:24
|
|
|
Essentially, linking any feats/options to god worship was a really bad idea.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 18:25
|
|
|
That's a problem with the domain power feats. There are now objectively correct gods to worship as a divine character based on what at wills you are using.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 18:45
|
|
|
LightWarden posted:
That's a REALLY bad power by RAW, because RAW, you can't use it with a melee weapon. Ranged keyword + Weapon keyword = needs a ranged weapon to function. Shame, because it would be fine as 'one target in CB5'. 4e's designers frequently didn't actually know 4e's rules. E: Kurieg posted:My favorite was a Warpriest with the Selune domain who worshipped Sehanine because it covered every single power he had. TBF, Selune and Sehanine are basically the same person IIRC.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 19:00
|
|
|
Thanks for the build stuff!
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 19:11
|
|
|
LightWarden posted:(The article also had a Charisma-based sanction attack that gave paladins an option at range- but it required a bow, which paladins aren't proficient with.) Notably, Cavalier and Blackguard paladins are proficient with all simple and military weapons (including ranged), but if we're talking about anything other than a Daily power, then it's moot.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 19:25
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:That's a REALLY bad power by RAW, because RAW, you can't use it with a melee weapon. Ranged keyword + Weapon keyword = needs a ranged weapon to function. Shame, because it would be fine as 'one target in CB5'. I think the note in the Rules Compendium that you couldn't use ranged powers with the weapon keyword with melee weapons or melee powers with the weapon keyword with ranged weapons came later in the game, because it wasn't in the earlier PHB and it also invalidates some powers like the ranger's Sharpshooter Paragon Path in Martial Power, which has the "stab a dude with an arrow, then shoot someone else with an arrow" power that's a melee 1 (though it also has a problem because it doesn't mention the ranged part of the second attack). P.d0t posted:Notably, Cavalier and Blackguard paladins are proficient with all simple and military weapons (including ranged), but if we're talking about anything other than a Daily power, then it's moot. Encounter power, so no dice there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:That's a REALLY bad power by RAW, because RAW, you can't use it with a melee weapon. Ranged keyword + Weapon keyword = needs a ranged weapon to function. Shame, because it would be fine as 'one target in CB5'. So they've wrote a power who, as part of the special effects, lets you shoot a magic energy beam further with your crossbow, so long as you're holding a longsword in your other hand?
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:That's a REALLY bad power by RAW, because RAW, you can't use it with a melee weapon. Ranged keyword + Weapon keyword = needs a ranged weapon to function. Shame, because it would be fine as 'one target in CB5'. I think in this case it's more a case of the intended effect of the power being obvious enough regardless of what the specific rule says. It's also coded properly in the online builder so it will use your equipped melee weapon.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 19:55
|
|
|
Prison Warden posted:So they've wrote a power who, as part of the special effects, lets you shoot a magic energy beam further with your crossbow, so long as you're holding a longsword in your other hand? Drow Long Knife or Farbond Spellblade would be ways to do it RAW. But thespaceinvader posted:4e's designers frequently didn't actually know 4e's rules. The intention is obvious. But what's annoying about it to me is that there are several ways they could have written it in a totally RAW way and had it work perfectly as intended, but because they didn't know the rules or have good editors, they didn't. And that's entirely discounting it being a bit of a poo poo power.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Drow Long Knife or Farbond Spellblade would be ways to do it RAW. I think the Janissary theme has another one of those powers that can't work by RAW as it is a Melee 1 Charge.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 20:27
|
|
|
Janissary theme was just badly written full stop. It was a standard action power you use on yourself that lets you charge with a bonus. it should have had range: personal, but instead it was melee 1. It works, because it targets the user and allows them to charge the enemy. It's just dumb. Sharpshooter is a bit of an exception because it specifies it has to be used with a bow, which gets around the general rule.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2015 20:39
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:That's a REALLY bad power by RAW, because RAW, you can't use it with a melee weapon. Ranged keyword + Weapon keyword = needs a ranged weapon to function. Shame, because it would be fine as 'one target in CB5'. This power actually does work RAW, and the Rules Compendium, as far as I can see, didn't override this. The keyword for it to specifically need a ranged weapon is the keyword "Ranged Weapon". "Ranged [Number]" isn't intrinsically tied to the "Weapon" keyword and is a separate animal from the keyword "Ranged Weapon". Also note that there is only the "Weapon" keyword, and not specifically "Melee Weapon". This means that all you have to do is be wielding a weapon: ANY weapon, melee or ranged, and you can target anything within 5 of you with the power.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 00:17
|
|
|
My group is between chapters and we're hitting level 6 after next session. Good opportunity to tweak things a little, I think. My plan was to run as much of a RAW game as possible, so I haven't given out any expertise bonus feats, but with one thing or another I'm considering it. Their tactics are a bit lackluster and while character builds are fine as a whole, there is the whole 12-STR-and-CHA-paladin thing. Seems like a +1 all around would only serve to offset the effects of that guy's silly gimmick. Melee training; I've strongly recommended it to the two defenders so I might as well let them have it. What's the general take on using consumables? Minor action to retrieve it, another action to use it is the rules, but the longer we play, the more needlessly cumbersome it seems. Any major drawbacks in just giving everyone Quick Draw, or even better, Potion Bandoliers? Maybe remade into a wondrous item so they can still wear cool belts and stuff; I guess what I'm really asking is how powerful are consumables vis-a-vis the effort required to use them, because we've hardly ever had them in our games and I dunno. Or maybe just single pouches for sale as adventuring gear so the guy who likes to have a health potion in reserve can get just one and the guy who likes to carry two alchemical items per damage type can go full Liefeld. e: while I'm at it, the paladin guy is interested in a weapon (or other item, in a pinch) that lets him affect terrain, along the lines of removing one square of blocking or difficult terrain as an encounter power. "Minecraft pick" were the words he used. Anything remotely like that around? My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Apr 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 09:45
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:My plan was to run as much of a RAW game as possible, so I haven't given out any expertise bonus feats, but with one thing or another I'm considering it. Their tactics are a bit lackluster and while character builds are fine as a whole, there is the whole 12-STR-and-CHA-paladin thing. Seems like a +1 all around would only serve to offset the effects of that guy's silly gimmick. Melee training; I've strongly recommended it to the two defenders so I might as well let them have it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 13:08
|
|
|
Agent Boogeyman posted:This power actually does work RAW, and the Rules Compendium, as far as I can see, didn't override this. The keyword for it to specifically need a ranged weapon is the keyword "Ranged Weapon". "Ranged [Number]" isn't intrinsically tied to the "Weapon" keyword and is a separate animal from the keyword "Ranged Weapon". Also note that there is only the "Weapon" keyword, and not specifically "Melee Weapon". This means that all you have to do is be wielding a weapon: ANY weapon, melee or ranged, and you can target anything within 5 of you with the power. Certainly a persuasive argument.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 16:46
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:My group is between chapters and we're hitting level 6 after next session. Good opportunity to tweak things a little, I think. On consumables: 4E's mechanics actually encourage you to use them pretty much as soon as you find them, especially if they're an attack item like Alchemist's Fire. This is because they have a static attack bonus that never changes, so if you get a bunch of Alchemist's Fire at say, Level 3, and never use them between then and gaining to Level 7, you're still going off of the original Level 3 attack bonus for them, which means they won't be able to hit enemies you would be facing that are around your level. In other words, consumables become less useful if you just let them sit in your pockets all day waiting for the "perfect" time to use them. The perfect time to use them is the level you get them, and that's about it. As far as the actions required, since they're consumables, it doesn't really make too much of a difference unless you expect to use a Minor Action every round. Though with this kind of action economy, the classes best able to use consumables are those that don't use a lot of Minor Actions in the first place (Like the Fighter) and sometimes has unexpected synergies with existing class features (Again, like the Fighter: If you chuck an Alchemist's Fire at an enemy as a Fighter, taking the Minor+Standard to do so, you can still mark that enemy because you attacked them and also get a bit of distance for your mark in the process). As a GM, handing out consumables as treasure is a little tricky because they're generally cheaper (By like 75% or something) than most magical items you might dole out. So what I do is convert a magic item treasure to its base GP worth, then give out a number of consumables worth that same amount in its place. This also ties into the inherent bonuses in a roundabout way; I highly encourage you to use them simply because it actually makes doling out treasure parcels more interesting. You don't have to worry about the math at that point, just give them neat items that do quirky things or are just generally fun; you take the inherent bonus or the enhancement bonus of the item, whichever is higher when calculating attacks/defenses. As such, with inherent bonuses, older weapons have lasting power as long as you don't care too much about crit dice or other special effects that rely on the level of the item. Eventually older weapons do get trumped by bigger and better things, just with inherent bonuses they last a good amount of levels longer than they would without. In some cases, you might even get a weapon that sets the character for life, like the Flaming Weapons that all they do is use a free action to change damage type to Fire. Sometimes you just really want to deal some fire damage, and with inherent bonuses you don't have to carry 8 different versions of the SAME weapon. When it comes to the expertise feat bonuses, the way I do it, is I just give everyone a flat +1 feat bonus to all attack rolls from the start, then tell my players "Any time you see a feat that increases an attack roll with a feat bonus, increase whatever number it says by +1". This keeps the math on level while still keeping +1 feat-bonus-to-attack feats (Like Versatile Expertise) from being completely obsolete. I also allow players to take Melee Training for free if they so choose. They usually take it, but I've had some players tell me "I'll work up to it through roleplay" so what I do for them is just let them take it at any level they feel they've "earned" it. The stipulation is they can't take it UNTIL they level. But hey, free feat that takes up no feat slots, so I haven't seen any complaints and those who'd roleplay it out all feel it's been a fair ruling anyway. Agent Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Apr 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:03
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:What's the general take on using consumables? Minor action to retrieve it, another action to use it is the rules, but the longer we play, the more needlessly cumbersome it seems. Any major drawbacks in just giving everyone Quick Draw, or even better, Potion Bandoliers? Maybe remade into a wondrous item so they can still wear cool belts and stuff; I guess what I'm really asking is how powerful are consumables vis-a-vis the effort required to use them, because we've hardly ever had them in our games and I dunno. gently caress the minor actions, would be my take. That's one of the few areas on which 5e improved; removing minor actions for bookkeeping purposes. If you want to use a consumable, the action to use it is all you need, regardless of what you're holding, gently caress the idea that the sword and heavy shield fighter has to free action drop sword minor to pull potion minor to chug potion minor to pick up sword and burn a whole loving turn to swig a potion or lob a grenade.. (Whilst the Wizard has a hand free, and most likely a familiar which swaps items around for him  )
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:17
|
|
|
People actually follow the action rules for swapping items and things like that?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:28
|
|
|
LFR sucks like that. But even with 'gently caress the minor actions' in place, consumables are rarely worth the effort to use, with the exception of magic ammunition, and trolls.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:30
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:That's one of the few areas on which 5e improved; removing minor actions for bookkeeping purposes. Minor-action healing meant the healer could heal and do something else. Bonus action healing is just barely better than spending a spell slot with no tangible benefit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:39
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:LFR sucks like that. Or Firewind Blade builds using Inferno Oil..... Not that those are high op or anything. /sarcasm
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:42
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Minor-action healing meant the healer could heal and do something else. Bonus action healing is just barely better than spending a spell slot with no tangible benefit. Yeah I felt the problems with minors in 4e were more the dumb legacy parts of the system like swapping weapons around and taking 17 time units to arm a grenade and stuff like that. Being able to quickly throw off a heal or breathe fire or whatever before mashing someone's face in with your buster sword was fine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Minor-action healing meant the healer could heal and do something else. Bonus action healing is just barely better than spending a spell slot with no tangible benefit. Minor action healing was great. Minor action potion use is great. Minor action sword-drawing and door-opening is lovely.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2015 16:43
|
|
|
So, is there a good way to do 3D combat in 4e? I'm adapting some old Planescape modules, and want to keep the weird astral plane/limbo stuff, but I'm not sure how to do that. Especially via Roll20.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2015 00:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 05:39 |
|
|
Moriatti posted:So, is there a good way to do 3D combat in 4e? I'm adapting some old Planescape modules, and want to keep the weird astral plane/limbo stuff, but I'm not sure how to do that. Especially via Roll20. 4e's advantage is in the 1-1 diagonals. Remember you just need to measure the biggest axis to determine distance - including up/down. But it will pretty much always play like dogshit on a 2d map.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2015 04:35
|
|
