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Political Whores posted:It's easier to muddy the waters with abortion. Yeah pretty much. If you haven't been raised to inherently hate them, gays are just normal people who don't bother you. It's way easier to accept that than the idea of sucking a future-baby out of a woman not being somehow wrong.
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Apr 8, 2015 19:27
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Yeah that was my point. Abortion will always be controversial. I don't think gay marriage/gay rights will be for much longer. Just look at their latest strategy to spin their bigotry as 'religious freedom'. Not only did it blow up in their face, but pushing versions of the RFRA may actually have the unintended effect of increasing the pace in the push for workplace protections for LGBTQ people.
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Apr 8, 2015 19:46
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I can get how someone believes anything from a fertilized egg on up to be a real actual alive baby and thus consider any abortion murder. While they're factually incorrect, there's at least some logical basis to it. With gays it's literally "this holy book kinda sorta says this is bad so I'm gonna die on that hill"; anyone who can be swayed is coming around sooner or later.
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Apr 8, 2015 19:46
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I feel like women's rights in general face an uphill battle because to the current generation it's just really hard to sell that gay marriage affects you as a straight person in any meaningful way. Women's rights are still rather easily pushed as "women want to take rights away from men! Don't listen to those harpy lies!"
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Apr 8, 2015 19:49
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RagnarokAngel posted:I feel like women's rights in general face an uphill battle because to the current generation it's just really hard to sell that gay marriage affects you as a straight person in any meaningful way. Women's rights are still rather easily pushed as "women want to take rights away from men! Don't listen to those harpy lies!" Hardly any of the pro-life arguments look like that.
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Apr 8, 2015 20:06
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Series DD Funding posted:Hardly any of the pro-life arguments look like that. But seeding distrust about other women's rights issues causes men to doubt this, too. E.g. shouldn't men get a say in abortion it's their kid too!
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Apr 8, 2015 20:20
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Series DD Funding posted:Hardly any of the pro-life arguments look like that. Doesn't stop them from using poorly reasoned and misinformed arguments.
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Apr 8, 2015 20:24
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RagnarokAngel posted:E.g. shouldn't men get a say in abortion it's their kid too!
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Apr 8, 2015 20:32
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Abortions for anyone who wants them at any point in their pregnancy, even if they're in labor, that's what I say. Because someone getting an abortion casually is as big a myth as welfare queens. If someone is trying to get an abortion in the final week it's because they loving NEED it.
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Apr 8, 2015 20:39
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Equine Don posted:http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/politics/elections/2015/04/07/lgbt-protections-repeal-losing-late-counting/25440407/ A local Pentecostal megachurch that my brother attends told everyone to vote for repeal and gave them campaign materials. They can get upwards of 9000 people attending on Sundays. 
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Apr 8, 2015 20:42
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Its also a lot easier to backdoor ban abortion with regulations and the like. I don't see how the right is going to put the gay marriage cat back in the bag
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Apr 8, 2015 20:47
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FlamingLiberal posted:True. But unlike abortion I don't see how you can fight a long term campaign against gay marriage when it will just become more accepted over time. It's hard to spin bigotry as something it's not. The same way the anti-abortion movement has labeled themselves as "pro-life" while also including a large number of people who support the death penalty?
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Apr 8, 2015 20:51
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No Pants posted:A local Pentecostal megachurch that my brother attends told everyone to vote for repeal and gave them campaign materials. They can get upwards of 9000 people attending on Sundays. Yeah, but the repeal only won by a thousand votes. So either the evangelicals don't care enough or the thoughts on gay marriage are beginning to swing in their favor even in this lovely town. Still, my cousin is trans. She actually had a group of teenagers corner her at the mall and sling insults and crap at her for awhile. With this ordinance gone I'm starting to worry that it's going to get worse for her before things get better.
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Apr 8, 2015 20:56
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RagnarokAngel posted:But seeding distrust about other women's rights issues causes men to doubt this, too. E.g. shouldn't men get a say in abortion it's their kid too!
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Apr 8, 2015 21:34
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:25 people under the age of 30 will show up, confused as to why it's a protest AGAINST gay marriage. Ahaha I would have been one of them. I didn't realize what it was really saying until I read your post.
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Apr 8, 2015 23:26
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ponzicar posted:Isn't there a big generational difference for acceptance of gay marriage, while there isn't one for abortion? Which means that the people currently fighting against gay marriage will grow old and die off, and most of their children and grandchildren will be accepting of it. Abortion however, will still be a big issue decades from now. Yes which is why saying "See it's just like abortion!" is disingenuous as gently caress. But some autist savant said a bunch of words and people latched onto it 
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Apr 9, 2015 00:10
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VitalSigns posted:Ahaha I would have been one of them. I didn't realize what it was really saying until I read your post. The image gave it away for me.
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Apr 9, 2015 00:12
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Holy God in Heaven am I sick of this derail. Mainly because not a single loving poster has anwered either A: what the gently caress we should do about the conservatives pushing back against same sex marraige ( ) and, if you don't have a suggestion for what we should do about hypothetical than why should we care other than crowning you King Right of Righton or B: given an abortion-like example of a "SSM rollback" that they would try to push because, as far as I can see, if you amend "marriage" to mean "two consenting adults" you really can't change "marriage rights" without affecting or effecting (I forget which because I'm frustrated by this bullshit) straight couples too.Every time this thread pops up I say "Hey! Has something happened in the world of civil rights??" but, instead, it's Comic Book Guy going "Um actually..." all over the loving place like anyone fucks a give.
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Apr 9, 2015 00:20
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Series DD Funding posted:The image gave it away for me. Yes it should have tipped me off, but when I see red high heels, "straight woman in her approved gender role" is not the first place my mind goes
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Apr 9, 2015 01:18
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CommieGIR posted:The more these guys talk, the more I get the feeling that they would love to have a lawless outbreak, so that they could establish their own government. They say these things, and all I see is a bunch of evangelicals masturbating to the idea of Civil War 2 There's nothing these people want more than to be the Christianist Taliban. Well, except for the entire world to be run with misery, fear and pain under their glorious and divine rule.
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Apr 9, 2015 05:07
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To get this thread back on track a little, the President is of the opinion that gay conversion therapy is bad and we probably shouldn't be doing it. This is in response to a petition to enact a ban on conversion therapy, mind, but it's a nicely written message that references poor Leelah Alcorn and calls for kindness in dealing with LGBTQ+ folk. You'd think this would be a relatively uncontoversial issue, but considering all the states where bans on GCT failed or are being stalled indefinitely... it would seem it still is. 
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Apr 9, 2015 14:37
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greatn posted:Abortions for anyone who wants them at any point in their pregnancy, even if they're in labor, that's what I say. Because someone getting an abortion casually is as big a myth as welfare queens. If someone is trying to get an abortion in the final week it's because they loving NEED it. There's already an exception for medical reasons in most abortion laws.
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Apr 9, 2015 14:51
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computer parts posted:There's already an exception for medical reasons in most abortion laws. Oops, I thought I was in the April politics thread when I posted that earlier. I'll respond in there.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:00
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resurgam40 posted:To get this thread back on track a little, the President is of the opinion that gay conversion therapy is bad and we probably shouldn't be doing it. This is in response to a petition to enact a ban on conversion therapy, mind, but it's a nicely written message that references poor Leelah Alcorn and calls for kindness in dealing with LGBTQ+ folk. Oklahoma's "Freedom to Obtain Conversion Therapy Act," since renamed the "Parental and Family Rights in Counseling Protection Act," made it out of a house committee but hasn't made it to a full house vote yet. The original version was 100% Sally Kern: - included any efforts to "change behaviors or gender expressions or to reduce or eliminate sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward the same sex." - included pastors and youth ministers in the definition of mental health provider. The current version is still bad, but at least: - prohibits aversion therapy - uses a standard (though expansive) definition of mental health provider.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:12
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It's my right as an American to be bled with leeches to cure a cold and drink radium water for vim and vigor, when is Oklahoma going to protect that right.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:18
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No Pants posted:A local Pentecostal megachurch that my brother attends told everyone to vote for repeal and gave them campaign materials. They can get upwards of 9000 people attending on Sundays. I'm of the firm belief that any church that tries to do poo poo like this should lose their church based tax exempt status
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Apr 9, 2015 15:53
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Although it's deplorable for mega churches to encourage their rich waspy congregation to poo poo on other people's rights, churches have been a huge driving force behind minority voting.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:56
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Dr. VooDoo posted:I'm of the firm belief that any church that tries to do poo poo like this should lose their church based tax exempt status I disagree. No church should have tax exempt status anyway.
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Apr 9, 2015 16:12
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greatn posted:I disagree. No church should have tax exempt status anyway. Quoted for truth. They are business's like any other. If they have a charitable wing, that can be used for a tax deduction, but the organization should still be beholden to the same tax laws as any other business of a similar size.
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Apr 9, 2015 16:38
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VitalSigns posted:It's my right as an American to be bled with leeches to cure a cold and drink radium water for vim and vigor, when is Oklahoma going to protect that right. To be fair nobody really has a problem with you loving up your poo poo. Conversion camps are only really sad and tragic when forced, like parents forcing it on their kids to "fix" them. I knew a guy who was forced into one. He's still gay as hell but now has a deep desire to be castrated.
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Apr 9, 2015 17:18
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Mr. Nice! posted:Although it's deplorable for mega churches to encourage their rich waspy congregation to poo poo on other people's rights, churches have been a huge driving force behind minority voting. Not mega churches though. They're too busy building sidewalks and walls with bibles built into them, so that they can never be read. And big butter Jesus of course.
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Apr 9, 2015 17:51
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ponzicar posted:Isn't there a big generational difference for acceptance of gay marriage, while there isn't one for abortion? Which means that the people currently fighting against gay marriage will grow old and die off, and most of their children and grandchildren will be accepting of it. Abortion however, will still be a big issue decades from now. I think it largely comes down to this: if you believe abortion is equivalent to infanticide, the harm caused by it is anything but abstract. For same-sex marriage, even the most ardent opponents can't point to anything but abstract consequences for society as a whole. The entire pivot to "religious freedom" reflects a tacit acknowledgement of this on the part of the anti-gay right - that opposition same-sex marriage can no longer be defended on its own merits.
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Apr 9, 2015 18:13
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Barry Convex posted:The entire pivot to "religious freedom" reflects a tacit acknowledgement of this on the part of the anti-gay right - that opposition same-sex marriage can no longer be defended on its own merits. Exactly - it's code for "legal protection of my irrational actions, regardless of their effect on others."
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Apr 9, 2015 18:28
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Dr. VooDoo posted:I'm of the firm belief that any church that tries to do poo poo like this should lose their church based tax exempt status It'd be easier and more likely to be upheld in court to remove all religious tax exemptions (and we probably should but good loving luck with that).
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Apr 9, 2015 18:58
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And it's a slippery slope to getting rid of tax-exemptions in general.
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Apr 9, 2015 18:59
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Barry Convex posted:The entire pivot to "religious freedom" reflects a tacit acknowledgement of this on the part of the anti-gay right - that opposition same-sex marriage can no longer be defended on its own merits. The really funny thing is how you can look at the writings of people arguing "religious freedom" now and see that 10+ years ago they were just arguing straight up that freedom of association means it's OK to refuse to serve gays. Now they claim that absolutely no one would ever do that and this is all about gay wedding cakes and photographers and nothing else.
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Apr 9, 2015 19:15
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Evil Fluffy posted:It'd be easier and more likely to be upheld in court to remove all religious tax exemptions (and we probably should but good loving luck with that). 501c3s that preach politics do lose their status if the IRS files suit, and it's been repeatedly upheld.
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Apr 9, 2015 19:20
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Series DD Funding posted:501c3s that preach politics do lose their status if the IRS files suit, and it's been repeatedly upheld. Can you cite some? Because the GOP has gone out of their way to legally limit the depth of IRS investigations.
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Apr 9, 2015 19:38
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Series DD Funding posted:501c3s that preach politics do lose their status if the IRS files suit, and it's been repeatedly upheld. They can preach about viewpoints, they can't preach for or against a specific candidate.
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Apr 9, 2015 19:45
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CommieGIR posted:Can you cite some? Because the GOP has gone out of their way to legally limit the depth of IRS investigations. Read starting at page 10: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/branch_ministries.pdf Generally nothing happens for minor violations, but that's not unique for the 501 rules. They're quite strict and revocation proceedings (under any circumstances) are difficult to prosecute.
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Apr 9, 2015 19:54
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