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Agrajag posted:Free will certainly isn't a thing, nope. His thinking is structured around manipulating societal outcomes and yours is structured around punishment. My view's similar to his and I feel like you'd say this to me, too, and you would just be talking past me.
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Apr 10, 2015 05:35
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AAgrajag posted:Free will certainly isn't a thing, nope. And that's the story? There's good people and bad people? Crime and then maximum punishment? And it ends there? And this helps the society how? You want blood for revenge. Some of us want to reduce future crime. I also bet you claim to be on the goodie side and all these others are on baddie side. But what happens the day you commit bad deeds? Will we hear perhaps "...yeah but see I'm different". Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 05:36
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Agrajag posted:Free will certainly isn't a thing, nope.
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Apr 10, 2015 05:39
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Vahakyla posted:A I don't even know where you are coming from where I am saying I want revenge or blood, but please go ahead and assume away. I am pointing out that it is absurd to excuse the actions of a person in the position of authority especially when his actions would have absolutely cleared him of any wrongdoing if not for the video evidence catching him in the act. Reduce future crime by doing what? Saying poor Slater he is only the product of "gun culture"? He is a grown man that killed a man over a supposed broken tail light and he then adds to that by attempting to cover up his own crime. If that isn't morally and ethically reprehensible to you then clearly we are not going to agree. As for you thinking I am out for blood and revenge, all I have to say is, that you should stop making poo poo up in order to make yourself seem more reasonable. You definitely are excellent at this whole attributing things a person never said to that person in order to make a point. Agrajag fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 05:45
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Gotcha. Bad cops just happen. Can't help it. We just need to mop up afterwards.
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Apr 10, 2015 05:46
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Planting the taser and lying about it shows he is evil. If covering his own rear end was more important than the truth then he is evil.
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Apr 10, 2015 05:48
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Vahakyla posted:Gotcha. Bad cops just happen. Can't help it. We just need to mop up afterwards. Please do continue with your absurd form of argumentation. I'm sure it gets you plenty of highfives. Also, you clearly have no understanding of morality or ethics.
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Apr 10, 2015 05:48
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Agrajag posted:Please do continue with your absurd form of argumentation. I'm sure it gets you plenty of highfives. Please educate me about these morals and ethics that I lack.
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Apr 10, 2015 05:52
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I think you're misinterpreting a subtext of, "blame is a non-factor," for, "he's not to blame."
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Apr 10, 2015 05:52
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Hitler wasn't evil, he just mad some bad decision re: Jews. 
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Apr 10, 2015 05:53
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Some innate "evil" is like a religion, since it assumes somekind of fatalistic possession. "Man dude yo, these things just happen, you know. It's this eeeeviiiil that causes it. Nothing we can do!" Are they born with it? Or does it take control at some point? Is it lack of Jesus? Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 06:03
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Lemming posted:You're literally saying that we both can't determine whether or not a shooting was justified, and also that we should trust the results of the cops' internal investigations.
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Apr 10, 2015 06:04
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To be fair, I think that making police run, in as bad shape as they are in, might actually be putting their lives in danger. Good Shoot.
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Apr 10, 2015 06:11
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Dead Reckoning posted:Jesus gently caress, you are stupid. No, I didn't say either of those things. My contentions were that 1) the raw number of officer involved shootings in a given year is not a useful statistic for making policy because the circumstances of those shootings matter, and 2) simply looking at basic event reporting data, which may be useful for statistical analysis when aggregated, does not tell you whether a particular shooting was justified or unjustified, a determination which must be based on the totality of circumstances. You braindead waste of oxygen. You made other arguments too, but you said or implied both of those things. Dead Reckoning posted:Not really. Statements like "this suspect was only deterred by the display of a firearm" or "they could have safely taken the suspect into custody without shooting him" are by their nature counterfactuals. Even if there was mandatory nationwide reporting of every officer involved shooting, (something I support, btw) it wouldn't get you the information you want, because the question of whether a shooting was justified (as opposed to lawful) is inherently a value judgement. Posters in this thread have stated that they think any shooting in which there was any possibility for the officers to take the suspect in alive, even at great personal risk, is unjustified. The law doesn't necessarily agree. These words are you saying that we can't determine whether any given shooting was justified or not. Your reasoning is that since different people have different values, it's impossible to agree about it, so the determination can't be made (which is stupid; some people think shooting Walter Scott was justified, and we can safely say people like that are worthless). You also implicitly asserted that the only thing we can do with regards to determining whether or not a shooting was justified is trust the cops here: Dead Reckoning posted:I also take serious issue with your characterization of every single officer shooting as a murder. Comparing unlawful killings of police to every single person killed by police in the line of duty including those killed in unambiguously lawful shootings is going to skew the numbers a bit. Again, we run into a data problem. I'm not going to expect you to assume that every single shooting that ends up being deemed justified by internal affairs to be lawful, but if the vast majority of police shootings are of armed, violent suspects and the examples in this thread are the outliers, it deflates a lot of your argument. Again, a data collection problem, but you can't reasonably assume that every officer involved shooting is by default unlawful and unjustified. The police are the only ones with access to that information because they withhold information about some shootings and lie about the information in others and the only information we get about it is what they release, and you're assuming here that most are justified, because the police have said so. You call this a "data problem," which implies that the data is inherently ambiguous, as opposed to something the cops do on purpose. Your made up version of reality would be more convincing if you didn't write a bunch of other words down.
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Apr 10, 2015 06:24
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Vahakyla posted:Some innate "evil" is like a religion, since it assumes somekind of fatalistic possession. Who said it was innate? What is the point of just saying "well he's not a baaaad guy, nobody is"? This guy is a piece of poo poo on the order of Whitey Bulger, because he was a cop. When cops break the law and violate human rights, it is the gravest sort of crime against civilization itself. He was responsible for enforcing the law, and he abused the law to commit murder. This is called "doing evil."
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Apr 10, 2015 06:25
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SedanChair posted:Who said it was innate? What is the point of just saying "well he's not a baaaad guy, nobody is"? I honestly believe it blinds most people in the search for causes.
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Apr 10, 2015 06:31
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If killing someone completely unjustifiably and attempting to cover it up isn't evil than nothing is, call Merriam-Webster we need to have a word deleted. Hail Satan.
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Apr 10, 2015 06:37
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Vahakyla posted:I honestly believe it blinds most people in the search for causes. So what the hell is your point, dude? The cause of what? Police killings? Or the cause of a guy acting like a piece of poo poo? I listed some causes of police killings earlier. Some can be addressed directly with methods that don't require fixing society at large. Stuff like mandatory bodycam usage removes a lot of the temptation to act like a piece of poo poo because it substantially ramps up the likelihood that lovely behavior will be identified and accountability enforced compared to the current situation where the miraculous appearance of a bystander with a phone cam is almost the only event that can cause accountability for a wrongful killing by police. What are your ideas aside from "wondering about the causes" why dude would try to cover his tracks with a planted weapon? That's beyond obvious, because most people in any walk of life are venal pieces of poo poo, and if you put them in a situation where they are unlikely to be held to account for serious misdeeds due to the whole system and society taking their word for it when they are the sole chronicler of an event, then the likelihood of such misdeeds will be substantially greater than if they knew there were other eyes documenting their actions. That's true in any walk of life not just police work, we just happen to have set up this situation with police where they have that benefit of the doubt. You may have very few who are actually looking to kill, but you have a whole lot more people who are otherwise "good" or "ordinary/neutral" who may be a whole lot less careful about when they pull out and use their gun, and when they take other actions that make it more likely that a situation will arise where they will be "forced" to use their gun. What is your argument, aside from poking a stick into things here?
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Apr 10, 2015 06:53
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The perfect play for this tape would have been to make a copy, then go to the police station with your phone saying you videoed an incident/whatever. Let things fall where they may, if the video "disappears" wait till trial, then leak the full video online after everyone has put things down on record.
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Apr 10, 2015 06:56
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Mavric posted:Hitler wasn't evil, he just mad some bad decision re: Jews. In all seriousness, though, if your concern is manipulating societal outcomes then where does, "evil," or, "blame," enter into it? At the level of target selection. But once you've got the guy then you're already past that point and it's all just cause and effect. This approach can be generalized in two parts: 1. Evidence-based policy to -- 2. -- meet a clearly defined policy-goal. The latter is subjective and can be about anything you wish, but the former is just dry analysis. If you eschew punishment as a goal unto itself then where does evil and blame factor into it? It doesn't. It's a factor elsewhere.
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Apr 10, 2015 07:18
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demonicon posted:This doesn't change at all the fact that the number of guns in the US is a big factor in why the US has the police force it has right now. I know that this doesn't help in any way but in an alternate dimension were the second amendment didn't exist, the US statistics would probably be much closer to those of other developed nations. Saying this over and over does not make it true.
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Apr 10, 2015 07:24
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Dead Reckoning posted:And, as I stated earlier, "number of people killed by police" is not a useful measure of anything. This is retarded.
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Apr 10, 2015 08:40
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blunt for century posted:since cops can't be trusted with body or dash cameras, we should use taxpayer funds for equipping black people with body and dash cameras instead This is the most sensible thing I've read in this thread.
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Apr 10, 2015 08:45
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FRINGE posted:Less than people wish it was. Every study of criminogenic factors comes to the same conclusion. You can create/breed criminality simply by making people poor and then oppressing them relative to the perceived society at large. Hell, every study of human aging shows that when people die they are interchangeable with almost anyone they grew up with. You are your cohort, enjoy your predetermined life. (statistical outliers need not apply).
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Apr 10, 2015 09:05
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On a lighter side, I took this screenshot. Charleston PD public relations officer has been given very clear instructions during morning briefing, it seems.
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Apr 10, 2015 09:37
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Maybe the man shot in the back was a bad man? Maybe the man shooting the other man in the back wasn't a bad man? Just asking questions here
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Apr 10, 2015 10:24
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Zwabu posted:So what the hell is your point, dude? The cause of what? Police killings? Or the cause of a guy acting like a piece of poo poo? My point is partly what you just listed. Removing the chance for temptation to plant the weapon by stricter scrutiny and possible body/head cam, etc etc. I wasn't arguing against these. Slager having a partner with him, or having better training, or having a body cam, or having been disciplined and followed, or perhaps fired or any million reasons could have changed that day and made it so that he never fired his weapon at all, not that day, not any other day. Like I said earlier, I don't think Slager set out in the morning to kill a dude. I don't think many do ever set out to do that, not counting hitmen. It's just a perfect storm of various reasons that allow it to happen, and we can, and do, identify a lot of those reasons. By talking about how "evil" he is, we get a boogeyman who just does evil things and not a real life person who tried to hide behind the badge when he saw a reason and the means to do so. A more evil response would have been cold blooded shooting accompanied with utter disregard for framing the scene or even trying to make the scene more preferable to him, since clearly now he realized he hosed up. Just like you said here: quote:You may have very few who are actually looking to kill, but you have a whole lot more people who are otherwise "good" or "ordinary/neutral" Normal people turn and do lovely things. But there's a legitimate and a major portion of populace who just speak of good people and bad people, like they are different races. Or that we can just mop the blood of a minority from the street afterwards and go "oh well, poo poo happens, he was a bad guy". Everyone's capable of murder and violence, and those people aren't some shadowy figures, but just regulars folks. The reasons are varied as they are many, and I'm curious and interested about finding out all the causes and working to prevent them. I don't give a poo poo about blame afterwards or revenge, they don't really help the larger issue in any way. And like I also said, I afford this for everyone, and not just for him because he is a cop. I'll gladly give the same for Tsarnaev, for example. Sentencing him for bazillion years doesn't do anything good but we got loads of folks salivating at the thought of it. Or maybe the gang members from poverty? Nah, just race to get the harshest penalty and call it quits, leaving poverty untouched. It's just easier to collectively poo poo on a person or a gender or a race than to acknowledge thay the society sucks and tomorrow there might be another perp because the soil for it still remains fertile. I'd imagine we can comb back 96% of people convicted of murder or manslaughter in the US and identify bazillion threads and cues on how the killing would've never happened. There'd be a couple fo those "I just wanted to kill" left, and even then their childhood, parenthood, etc would be suspect in creating them as they are today. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 10:32
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Vahakyla posted:My point is partly what you just listed. Removing the chance for temptation to plant the weapon by stricter scrutiny and possible body/head cam, etc etc. I wasn't arguing against these. Slager having a partner with him, or having better training, or having a body cam, or having been disciplined and followed, or perhaps fired or any million reasons could have changed that day and made it so that he never fired his weapon at all, not that day, not any other day. Like I said earlier, I don't think Slager set out in the morning to kill a dude. I don't think many do ever set out to do that, not counting hitmen. It's just a perfect storm of various reasons that allow it to happen, and we can, and do, identify a lot of those reasons. Shorter version: Unless there both really are evil people and we invent a 'detect evil' wand, the only possible solution we have to crime, especially institutional crime like cops doing terrible poo poo, is to actually look at how poo poo in our society is set up and functions (or spectacularly fails to function) and fix it. To put it another way, you can't complain about the 'police' if you're taking the view that it's just individuals making completely free-will, evil choices, then there's nothing we could possibly do to address the problem with the police in this country. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 12:01
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Vahakyla posted:On a lighter side, I took this screenshot. Charleston PD public relations officer has been given very clear instructions during morning briefing, it seems. Hahaha, that's hilarious
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Apr 10, 2015 12:37
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Vahakyla posted:
Vaha, as usual I disagree with how far you take this stuff, this guy is a piece of poo poo, but I do give you credit for being the only one being consistent. Its somewhat amusing watching people who are normally talking about how criminals are victims of society, how rehabilitation is the only legitimate goal of the prison system, and how the idea of retributive justice is barbaric and bloodthirsty suddenly be calling for the death penalty and throwing the word evil around because the criminal here is a cop.
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Apr 10, 2015 13:16
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Jarmak posted:Vaha, as usual I disagree with how far you take this stuff, this guy is a piece of poo poo, but I do give you credit for being the only one being consistent. Its somewhat amusing watching people who are normally talking about how criminals are victims of society, how rehabilitation is the only legitimate goal of the prison system, and how the idea of retributive justice is barbaric and bloodthirsty suddenly be calling for the death penalty and throwing the word evil around because the criminal here is a cop. What do you mean by 'too far'? That's incredibly vague.
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Apr 10, 2015 13:20
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Obdicut posted:What do you mean by 'too far'? That's incredibly vague. I just mean I'm not agreeing with him
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Apr 10, 2015 13:40
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Jarmak posted:I just mean I'm not agreeing with him What aren't you agreeing with? You also think there's no systemic reasons why police (or other criminals) commit crimes, that it's all up to someone just deciding to be evil--or in your terms deciding to be a piece of poo poo?
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Apr 10, 2015 13:56
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Jarmak posted:Vaha, as usual I disagree with how far you take this stuff, this guy is a piece of poo poo, but I do give you credit for being the only one being consistent. Its somewhat amusing watching people who are normally talking about how criminals are victims of society, how rehabilitation is the only legitimate goal of the prison system, and how the idea of retributive justice is barbaric and bloodthirsty suddenly be calling for the death penalty and throwing the word evil around because the criminal here is a cop. Eh, "consistency" here depends on why you oppose the death penalty. I'm opposed to the death penalty in almost* all cases because I don't think the American justice system is competent enough to administer it reliably -- our court system has too wide a margin for error, as the DNA revelations over the past few years have shown, and too much systematic bias against the poor and the brown. A lot of those concerns drop away here because this guy isn't brown and he was caught on video committing unjustifiable murder; there's no realistic possibility here that new facts are going to come to light down the road somehow proving this guy innocent. On the other hand, if you sincerely don't believe that our justice system should be punitive, but rather solely focus on rehabilitation -- a position that I admit I have some sympathy for -- then yeah, it would be hypocritical to support the death penalty for this dude. -------- * Best example I can think of where the death penalty is at least defensible is that of prisoners who have already been sentenced to life in prison who kill again.
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Apr 10, 2015 13:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Eh, "consistency" here depends on why you oppose the death penalty. I'm opposed to the death penalty in almost* all cases because I don't think the American justice system is competent enough to administer it reliably -- our court system has too wide a margin for error, as the DNA revelations over the past few years have shown, and too much systematic bias against the poor and the brown. Unless you can translate this into legal terms, though, it's useless. "No realistic possibility" isn't something that you can really adjudicate. How do you create an actual framework to administer this and put it into legal terms that won't be abused?
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Apr 10, 2015 14:02
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Obdicut posted:What aren't you agreeing with? You also think there's no systemic reasons why police (or other criminals) commit crimes, that it's all up to someone just deciding to be evil--or in your terms deciding to be a piece of poo poo? Hey look its Obdicut trying to pedantically parse two words of my post into an argument completely tangential to the point I was making, it means "my post criticizing people attacking you should not be taken as an endorsement of your views" nothing more, nothing less. If I had an interest in posting on that subject I would have posted on that subject. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Eh, "consistency" here depends on why you oppose the death penalty. I'm opposed to the death penalty in almost* all cases because I don't think the American justice system is competent enough to administer it reliably -- our court system has too wide a margin for error, as the DNA revelations over the past few years have shown, and too much systematic bias against the poor and the brown. Agreed, but its been my casual observation that even a person exposing what you just will often lead to a thread being derailed with a chorus of people shouting them down about how its wrong because its barbaric and bloodthirsty. Since I share this opinion with you I've experienced it myself. edit: Or more succinctly, your're correct but I don't think that's the case here. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 14:08
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Jarmak posted:Hey look its Obdicut trying to pedantically parse two words of my post into an argument completely tangential to the point I was making, it means "my post criticizing people attacking you should not be taken as an endorsement of your views" nothing more, nothing less. If I had an interest in posting on that subject I would have posted on that subject. What a weird reaction to being asked to clarify your position on police and criminal justice. You can just not reply, you don't have to get all defensive. quote:Agreed, but its been my casual observation that even a person exposing what you just will often lead to a thread being derailed with a chorus of people shouting them down about how its wrong because its barbaric and bloodthirsty. Since I share this opinion with you I've experienced it myself. What's the actual point of executing the person? Please note this isn't 'shouting'.
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Apr 10, 2015 14:14
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I worked law enforcement for several years before quitting. You know what I did when people ran away from me? I let them. So what if they run away? If this wasn't such a horrible situation with the guy being gunned down and all it would be funny. The cop had his freaking car and identification papers. Where is he going to run to? I bet he would have come back to the police station to get his car, and stuff, back.
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Apr 10, 2015 15:54
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spacetoaster posted:I worked law enforcement for several years before quitting. You know what I did when people ran away from me? I let them. So what if they run away? If this wasn't such a horrible situation with the guy being gunned down and all it would be funny. The cop had his freaking car and identification papers. Where is he going to run to? That's why you quit. It's not important for you to dominate and control others.
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Apr 10, 2015 16:29
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Vahakyla posted:And like I also said, I afford this for everyone, and not just for him because he is a cop. I'll gladly give the same for Tsarnaev, for example. Sentencing him for bazillion years doesn't do anything good but we got loads of folks salivating at the thought of it. Or maybe the gang members from poverty? Nah, just race to get the harshest penalty and call it quits, leaving poverty untouched. Sorry, I don't think you can equate a white cop gunning down a black man in a city/region known for pitting races, and different race cops and suspects against each other with all the history there, with someone prepared to set off bombs placed carefully behind kids, maiming and killing dozens, hundreds, thousands, etc. Not the same in my book. And typically I'm very against death penalty verdicts (or LWOP), but in cases of "Weapons of mass destruction" like Boston, or McVeigh for OKC, I don't think I'll shed many tears over those folks. Let them rot. VH4Ever fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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