The Anti-vaccination movement!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Anti-vaccination movement!

Sic Semper Goon: Mar 1, 2015; Eu tu?; Switchblade Switcharoo

Funny, I was just arguing about the Australian dole cuts for anti-vaxxers on Facebook, and the response:

Facebook Man posted:

"you don't know me, you're making assumptions about me based on what you believe.
You can keep arguing, you're not getting a medal, you're not winning anything, I don't care, your words as a meaningless to me as you are.
You can believe and act how you want, you are your own man and what you choose to do isn't my issue.
I respect your choice and I'm not trying to alter or influence it.

You've done your research, I've done mine. I make an educated decision to not be vaccinated nor have my kids vaccinated (god forbid I ever have one).
If I post any form of documentation supporting my stand point you'll claim its bullshit.
I don't believe mainstream views are always correct (label me a hipster, hippy, leftwing, lunatic pariah if it helps you sleep at night) and if everyone did I'd probably be a slave, my gay and lesbian friends would be burned at the stake along with every practitioner of alternate medicine and every other non christian would be crucified.

I don't need government assistance, I'll earn my own money thank you.... congratulations on once again missing the point XD"

He's quite right actually, I do consider him an ultra-left fringe lunatic. In any case, it pretty much ended on that vein, with no evidence presented in favour for his case, although to his credit, he refrained from childish name calling.

# ? Apr 12, 2015 09:34

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# ? May 25, 2024 21:52

Centripetal Horse: Nov 22, 2009; Fuck money, get GBS

This could have bought you a half a tank of gas, lmfao -
Love, gromdul

quote:

I make an educated decision

Nope.

Unless "education" can also mean, "read tons of fringe-blog posts from people with no medical credentials, no experience in statistics, and no evidence to back their claims."

# ? Apr 12, 2015 10:19

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Sic Semper Goon posted:

It's a pity her children had to suffer in order to puncture her hubris, but at least she didn't stubbornly refuse to treat them post-infection.

Looks like she'd already given up on anti-vax by that point. And it's not hubris - it's fear. Not fear of the seemingly-random behavior of disease, but fear of humans - of human malice exploiting her and her children for some nefarious ends, or human incompetence endangering her children through some well-meaning but mistaken medical practice (as has happened many times before).

quote:

I’m writing this from quarantine, the irony of which isn’t lost on me. Emotionally I’m a bit raw. Mentally a bit taxed. Physically I’m fine. All seven of my unvaccinated children have whooping cough, and the kicker is that they may have given it to my five month old niece, too young to be fully vaccinated.

We’d had a games night at our house in March, my brother-in-law had a full-blown cold, so when the kids started with a dry cough a few days later I didn’t think much of it. But a week after the symptoms started the kids weren’t improving, in fact they were getting worse. And the cough. No one had a runny nose or sneezing but they all had the same unproductive cough. Between coughing fits they were fine.

Then a few days later at midnight I snapped. My youngest three children were coughing so hard they would gag or vomit. I’d never seen anything like this before. Watching our youngest struggle with this choking cough, bringing up clear, stringy mucus – I had heard of this before somewhere. My mom said I had it when I was a kid. I snapped into ‘something is WRONG’ mode.

I jumped on Google to type in “child cough.” My kids had all but one symptom of pertussis, none of them had the characteristic “whoop.” But they had everything else.

We had vaccinated our first three children on an alternative schedule and our youngest four weren’t vaccinated at all. We stopped because we were scared and didn’t know who to trust. Was the medical community just paid off puppets of a Big Pharma-Government-Media conspiracy? Were these vaccines even necessary in this day and age? Were we unwittingly doing greater harm than help to our beloved children? So much smoke must mean a fire so we defaulted to the ‘do nothing and hope nothing bad happens’ position.

For years relatives tried to persuade us to reconsider through emails and links, but this only irritated us and made us defensive. Secretly, I hoped I would find the proof I needed to hold the course, but deep down I was resigned to only find endless conflicting arguments that never resolved anything. No matter if we vaccinated or not, I thought, it would be nothing more than a coin toss with horrible risks either way.

When the Disneyland measles outbreakhappened my husband and I agreed to take a new look and weigh the evidence on both sides. A friend suggested I write out my questions so we could tackle them one by one. Just getting it out on paper helped so much. I only ended up with a handful of questions. But more potent than my questions were my biases.

I just didn’t trust civic government, the medical community, the pharmaceutical industry, and people in general. By default, I had excluded all research available from any major, reputable organization. Could all the in-house, independent, peer-reviewed clinical trials, research papers and studies across the globe ALL be flawed, corrupt and untrustworthy?

The final shift came when I connected the dots between a small, but real measles outbreak in my personal circles this time last year. But for the grace of God, our family was one step from contracting measles in our mostly under-or-unvaccinated 7 kids. Maybe we could have weathered that storm unscathed in personal quarantine. But in the 4 highly contagious days before any symptoms show we easily could have passed on our infection to my sister’s toddlers or her 34-week-old son in the NICU.

When I connected the dates for everyone involved it chilled me to the bone. I looked again at the science and evidence for community immunity and found myself gripped with a very real sense of personal and social responsibility before God and man. The time had come to make a more fully informed decision than we did 6 years ago. I sat down with our family doctor and we put together a catch-up vaccination schedule for our children.

That schedule that was supposed to start the week after I found myself in the waiting room of the Children’s Hospital of Eastern Ontario (CHEO) with my 10-month-old son, waiting to confirm if he had whooping cough.

I said before that the irony isn’t lost on me that I’m writing this from quarantine. For six years we were frozen in fear from vaccines, and now we are frozen because of the disease. My oldest two are getting better, the youngest four are getting worse and fast. Ottawa Public Health has been so helpful and communicative, trying to get us the help we need while keeping the community safe. We are under quarantine and starting antibiotics. Tonight, the baby started ‘whooping’. I did the right thing going to the hospital when I did. I can only hope this painfully honest sharing will help others.

I am not looking forward to any gloating or shame as this ‘defection’ from the antivaxx camp goes public, but, this isn’t a popularity contest. Right now my family is living the consequences of misinformation and fear. I understand that families in our community may be mad at us for putting their kids at risk. I want them to know that we tried our best to protect our kids when we were afraid of vaccination and we are doing our best now, for everyone’s sake, by getting them up to date. We can’t take it back … but we can learn from this and help others the same way we have been helped.

Vaccination is a serious decision about our personal and public health that can’t be made out of fear, capitulation or following any crowd. No one was more surprised than us to find solid answers that actually laid our fears to rest. I am confident that anyone with questions can find answers. I would only advise them to check your biases, sources and calendar: Time waits for no parent.

Notice a deep underrunning theme there - uncertainty and terror born from being both unable and unqualified to distinguish between real science and fake science, but feeling that the very existence of antivaxxers must indicate that there must be something to the anti-vax position since why would so many people believe something that isn't true (a viewpoint that also surfaces among climate change deniers too). Unable to fully trust medical and scientific sources, and fearful that both vaccinating and not vaccinating could be risky, they tend to lean toward not.

# ? Apr 12, 2015 15:00

Schnedwob: Feb 28, 2014; my legs are okay

VitalSigns posted:

Wow turns out the massive piles of historical evidence that whooping cough really exists, including the testimony of her own mother, weren't made up, loving go figure who could have expected that.

That's one of the things that confuses me the most about this- there are still plenty of people that were alive when various vaccines rolled out for the first time. If a lack of scientific understanding, as Main Paineframe pointed out, is one of the aspects leading people to buy into the anti-vax "nobody gets it anymore so it's not a big deal" narrative then one would think that more personal anecdotal evidence from maybe a friend who went to a pox party as a kid or an older relative who saw the polio vaccine roll out would at least do something to affect these people.

Main Paineframe posted:

Notice a deep underrunning theme there - uncertainty and terror born from being both unable and unqualified to distinguish between real science and fake science, but feeling that the very existence of antivaxxers must indicate that there must be something to the anti-vax position since why would so many people believe something that isn't true (a viewpoint that also surfaces among climate change deniers too). Unable to fully trust medical and scientific sources, and fearful that both vaccinating and not vaccinating could be risky, they tend to lean toward not.

I feel like a good 90% of the dumb poo poo that happens in Canada is because of the cultural and political detritus that floats up from the states, like how Harper tries his absolute hardest to be a Republican.

# ? Apr 12, 2015 15:18

Vermain: Sep 5, 2006

Schnedwob posted:

That's one of the things that confuses me the most about this- there are still plenty of people that were alive when various vaccines rolled out for the first time. If a lack of scientific understanding, as Main Paineframe pointed out, is one of the aspects leading people to buy into the anti-vax "nobody gets it anymore so it's not a big deal" narrative then one would think that more personal anecdotal evidence from maybe a friend who went to a pox party as a kid or an older relative who saw the polio vaccine roll out would at least do something to affect these people.

To quote directly from John Cook and Stephan Lewdandowsky's Debunking Handbook:

quote:

A common misconception about myths is the notion that removing its influence is as simple as packing more information into people�s heads. This approach assumes that public misperceptions are due to a lack of knowledge and that the solution is more information - in science communication, it�s known as the �information deficit model�. But that model is wrong: people don�t process information as simply as a hard drive downloading data. Refuting misinformation involves dealing with complex cognitive processes. To successfully impart knowledge, communicators need to understand how people process information, how they modify their existing knowledge and how worldviews affect their ability to think rationally. It�s not just what people think that matters, but how they think.

[�]

Once people receive misinformation, it�s quite difficult to remove its influence. This was demonstrated in a 1994 experiment where people were exposed to misinformation about a fictitious warehouse fire, then given a correction clarifying the parts of the story that were incorrect. Despite remembering and accepting the correction, people still showed a lingering effect, referring to the misinformation when answering questions about the story. Is it possible to completely eliminate the influence of misinformation? The evidence indicates that no matter how vigorously and repeatedly we correct the misinformation, for example by repeating the correction over and over again, the influence remains detectable. The old saying got it right - mud sticks.

There is also an added complication. Not only is misinformation difficult to remove, debunking a myth can actually strengthen it in people�s minds. Several different �backfire effects� have been observed, arising from making myths more familiar, from providing too many arguments, or from providing evidence that threatens one�s worldview.

(emphasis mine)

# ? Apr 12, 2015 15:33

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

Vermain posted:

To quote directly from John Cook and Stephan Lewdandowsky's Debunking Handbook:

(emphasis mine)

Intentionally deceiving people about inane information is one thing, I would say the more important problem is that women in particular have been conditioned not to trust the medical community via their experiences with said community. You don't really know what you're up against here until you have a serious medical condition and discover that a doctor has been misleading you or withholding information that you might find critical.

For example, I'm infertile (for X years or forever, who knows) and my first cancer doc decided it wasn't important to discuss that this would happen during chemo or sperm banks.

You can't really ask a nurse or a doctor if your doctor is good, they will always say yes or give a non-answer (what else is there to say?). So you start looking for secondary sources because your primary sources have lost all credibility with you. And if it so happens that your secondary source is a charlatan or a crank, we're off to the races.

I don't think it is any accident that the anti-vax movement seems dominated by women, who still have to fight to be treated equally in society. It's easy for the male-majority Internet community to ridicule these people from the sidelines and characterize them as morons, probably just after they get done doing their part for Gamergate.

# ? Apr 13, 2015 08:29

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Schnedwob posted:

That's one of the things that confuses me the most about this- there are still plenty of people that were alive when various vaccines rolled out for the first time. If a lack of scientific understanding, as Main Paineframe pointed out, is one of the aspects leading people to buy into the anti-vax "nobody gets it anymore so it's not a big deal" narrative then one would think that more personal anecdotal evidence from maybe a friend who went to a pox party as a kid or an older relative who saw the polio vaccine roll out would at least do something to affect these people.

I feel like a good 90% of the dumb poo poo that happens in Canada is because of the cultural and political detritus that floats up from the states, like how Harper tries his absolute hardest to be a Republican.

It's not a lack of scientific understanding. They understand the mechanism that vaccines operate on, and often even accept it as truth. Usually, it's a lack of trust of the medical industry (aka Big Medicine) to carry it out properly and safely. For example, one of the most common anti-vaxxer arguments is that vaccines also have some horrible additive that actually causes horrible side effects that current science just hasn't realized yet (a familiar situation to most people older than twenty). Or fearing that drug companies, many of which have monopolies on their particular vaccine due to various federal laws, are carelessly making unsafe vaccines to increase profits. Or claiming that the massive drop in disease was due to some other factor that happened around the same time that the relevant vaccines were introduced, and that the vaccine industry just took credit for something they had nothing to do with.

I suspect many anti-vaxxers wouldn't mind vaccinating if they could buy homemade non-GMO certified organic free-range vaccines with no preservatives from their local acupuncturist or homeopath, and in fact there are homeopaths who make "homeopathic vaccines" that they claim are just that and sell them to gullible anti-vaxxers. We live in a country where people are blaming artificial sweeteners for everything from obesity to cancer, and there are still structures standing with asbestos in them. It's well-known that cigarette companies covered up the health risks of smoking for decades, and didn't Coke or Hershey or something knowingly sell tainted baby formula to the third world after it was banned in the US? It's not even slightly surprising that people extend that distrust to the medical industry as well, especially considering that previous medicines have caused similar kinds of problems.

# ? Apr 13, 2015 15:01

Bates: Jun 15, 2006

OneThousandMonkeys posted:

I don't think it is any accident that the anti-vax movement seems dominated by women, who still have to fight to be treated equally in society. It's easy for the male-majority Internet community to ridicule these people from the sidelines and characterize them as morons, probably just after they get done doing their part for Gamergate.

Calling out beliefs that happen to be dominated by women is not misogyny - it would be misogynistic to not call them out because they are women. Women are still overhelmingly the primary caretakers of children and it seems women may be more interested in health - certainly media directed at women are spun that way and that might enforce it. It stands to reason then that nutty beliefs in those areas would also be dominated by women simply because they spend more time thinking about it. Similarly media and popular culture idolizes a certain male ideal which in turn makes some beliefs and behavior more appealing to men such as the PUA movement or survivalism. Lying doctors causing anti-vaxx seems far fetched and it would mean that doctors are inexplicably "misleading you or withholding information " more in some communities than in others.

# ? Apr 13, 2015 15:31

Lyesh: Apr 9, 2003

Doctors have done plenty of poo poo to encourage people to not believe them. For a long time bedside manner was seen as unimportant and puffing up the certainty of information seen as protective of the patient. Because of this, plenty of people (especially women) have had awful problems with doctors.

Look at fibromyalgia for a good example. A population of mostly women who went to the doctor talking about awful pain and then received no treatment for their "fake" condition. Then a bunch of research into it was done and, SUPRISE, we just didn't know some things about how pain works. So you get all those people who had been going to different doctors across a decade or whatever finally hearing that those assholes who weren't listening to them were wrong. That kind of thing does not encourage trust in the medical establishment.

# ? Apr 13, 2015 16:27

Xenochrist: Sep 11, 2006

This was on my (lovely) local paper's website. It's just so :allears:

I had to share it.

And of course the reader comments never disappoint, also.

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/04/time_for_vaccination_nazis_to.html

# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:03

Recoome: Nov 9, 2013; Matter of fact, I'm salty now.

hmmmmmm

https://uraonconsciousgovernance.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/a-call-for-pro-truth-to-replace-pro-vax-v-anti-vax/

looking at his profile, he has to sign everything with

Ura P Auckland
GAICD, FCPS, B.Bus
Managing Director

Recoome fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Apr 14, 2015

# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:07

Recoome: Nov 9, 2013; Matter of fact, I'm salty now.

also just because you are calling yourself "pro-truth" doesn't make your position a positive one, it's still "anti-vax". Here's a choice quote from the article (bolding mine)

quote:

Through an old colleague I came to know a number of people in the HPV (Human Papaloma Virus) world. My old colleague is a scientist who took the CEO/Business path and counts as friends many of the HPV opinion leaders in the US. He will not have his daughter immunised for HPV because he believes it is poorly designed because it doesn�t address all the species of HPV. That omission changes the landscape for infection, but does not eradicate the disease and his position is that doing so is irresponsible and creates a false sense of safety in the patient, and in turn a complacency about managing ongoing risks in a disease that needs monitoring. People may disagree with his position, but it is one based on his reading of the complexity of the issue and is an example that it is not black and white, and that not all objectors are ill-informed.

I am not going to vaccinate my child and give my child protection from HPV because it doesn't cover all the strains, why even both vaccinating if it doesn't cover all the strains it's so irresponsible to be complacent.

The irony of the last comment

# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:16

Capn Jobe: Jan 18, 2003; That's right. Here it is. But it's like you always have compared the sword, the making of the sword, with the making of the character. Cuz the stronger, the stronger it will get, right, the stronger the steel will get, with all that, and the same as with the character.; Soiled Meat

I have a single FB friend who's falling deeper and deeper into this movement. He's been posting nothing but Nazi references since SB277 started getting momentum in California.

It would essentially remove the "personal belief" exemption, and anti-vaxxers are going absolutely bonkers over it. Lotta Nazi references, like even more than usual.

Here's a random article to show a bit of background: http://www.mercurynews.com/health/ci_27907241/vaccine-exemption-california-sb-277-opponents-vow-pull

VVV Ha! That hadn't occurred to me.

Capn Jobe fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Apr 14, 2015

# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:21

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Capn Jobe posted:

I have a single FB friend who's falling deeper and deeper into this movement. He's been posting nothing but Nazi references since SB277 started getting momentum in California.

It would essentially remove the "personal belief" exemption, and anti-vaxxers are going absolutely bonkers over it. Lotta Nazi references, like even more than usual.

Here's a random article to show a bit of background: http://www.mercurynews.com/health/ci_27907241/vaccine-exemption-california-sb-277-opponents-vow-pull

Hahaha, it says something about my expectations of the movement that I was suspecting something different when I clicked on "mercurynews.com" as a link.

# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:26

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Every time I read this thread... :negative:

Anti-Vaxxers are a cancer on society and their arguments never make any sense. Apply their arguments to other aspects of life and it becomes so self-evident, that anyone who does not see it should be culled for being too idiotic.

"Why should I wear a seatbealt in my car. It does not save your life 100% of the time and makes us complacant." Yeah, just hold yourself on the dash and see how it goes.

"Most drivers in fatal car accidents are sober at the time, therefore it is safer to drive drunk."

I like to show them the Re-Think vaccine image I /think/ I posted in this thread a while ago.

Dalael fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Apr 15, 2015

# ? Apr 15, 2015 04:04

Happy_Misanthrope: Aug 3, 2007; "I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph

quote:

�I�ve never argued that vaccines don�t work. I just don�t think you need them. There are so many maladies now that used to be rare and now are much more prevalent�things like allergies, ADD, asthma, migraines, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, colitis, more colds. I�m not saying vaccines cause any of them, but the modern immune system might be less robust than it used to be because it doesn�t get its full workout going through a disease like the measles. I�m glad vaccines exist, just like I�m glad antibiotics exist, but we�ve abused the hell out of them. Bugs that no antibiotic works on anymore? I worry about that a lot more.�

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:04

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

I wish my immune system fought off my migraines and ADD better too, Bill.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:09

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph

Why does he have to have so many lovely ideas intertwined with his good ideas

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:10

Schnedwob: Feb 28, 2014; my legs are okay

My son is a pussywillow weakass with no muscles and no dick because I didn't shove him facefirst into pox-ridden cow feces as an infant. - Bill Maher

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:10

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

GreyPowerVan posted:

Why does he have to have so many lovely ideas intertwined with his good ideas

Because he's a legitimately really stupid person who coasts on saying objectively true things like 'maybe oppressing the lower class is...hosed UP???' and having smarter people on his show go 'yes Bill very good point'

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:12

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph

Part of what he says makes a bit of sense tho.

quote:

Bugs that no antibiotic works on anymore? I worry about that a lot more.�

I prefer George Carlin's way of putting it tho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X29lF43mUlo

In the end tho, better vaccinate than catch the disease itself.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:15

Recoome: Nov 9, 2013; Matter of fact, I'm salty now.

yes the answer is to expose kids these days to poo poo like chicken pox and measles that way their immune systems will be robust just like my good ol' pops*

*please ignore the walking stick pop has used since he was a kid due to polio

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:17

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

Tatum Girlparts posted:

Because he's a legitimately really stupid person who coasts on saying objectively true things like 'maybe oppressing the lower class is...hosed UP???' and having smarter people on his show go 'yes Bill very good point'

I guess that's right. I don't really watch his show so I only see quotes online which are half good and half moronic. Now that Colbert is gone I just watch the Daily Show and Last Week Tonight.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:18

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph

I'm not saying vaccines cause asthma, but I am saying that maybe we have asthma because we use vaccines :psypop:

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:34

Solkanar512: Dec 28, 2006; by the sex ghost

I still remember watching that episode where Bill loving Frist schooled him on vaccinations. It was so loving pathetic.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:52

Scrotum Modem: Sep 12, 2014

so he's pretty much using a disease version of the "bootstraps" argument. If your immune system didn't cheat the system via vaccines then it would be able to handle pretty much anything you throw at it due to learning how to fight it the hard way amirite?

these people are completely blind to what life was like before vaccines for gently caress's sake.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:57

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph

Man, what a retard.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 07:21

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

I love it when people discover how worthless Bill Maher is.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 09:27

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

Where to start with Bill Maher?

-Driven insane by 9/11, became a neocolonialist Islamophobe who supports racial profiling at airports. In this he has many strange bedfellows, but most of those bedfellows are smarter than him/know what they're talking about.
-Libertarian, which if we're being serious is about all you need to know about how much deep thinking he does on any issue
-Supports PETA
-Pro-Vaccination of course
-Is in the Ann Coulter School of Paid to Say Offensive poo poo for Attention
-Is generally misidentified by Republicans as far-left because he disagrees and says impolite things about them
-Constantly spews idiotic rhetoric and embarrassingly strange metaphors that make you wonder if he is even more stupid than you thought

He's of no real value to anyone looking for thoughtful discourse on anything, he's just a noise machine who presents himself as a gadfly, which is nothing new really.

Maher's show has given us Paul Begala torching Meghan McCain and the starting point for the Christine O'Donnell witchcraft story. Other than that it's a way for politicians, politically-involved celebrities, and the pundit class to promote themselves and cheerlead.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 10:00

Megillah Gorilla: Sep 22, 2003; If only all of life's problems could be solved by smoking a professor of ancient evil texts.; Bread Liar

Main Paineframe posted:

Looks like she'd already given up on anti-vax by that point. And it's not hubris - it's fear. Not fear of the seemingly-random behavior of disease, but fear of humans - of human malice exploiting her and her children for some nefarious ends, or human incompetence endangering her children through some well-meaning but mistaken medical practice (as has happened many times before).

Notice a deep underrunning theme there - uncertainty and terror born from being both unable and unqualified to distinguish between real science and fake science, but feeling that the very existence of antivaxxers must indicate that there must be something to the anti-vax position since why would so many people believe something that isn't true (a viewpoint that also surfaces among climate change deniers too). Unable to fully trust medical and scientific sources, and fearful that both vaccinating and not vaccinating could be risky, they tend to lean toward not.

So the horrible loving irony here is that the very thing they were afraid of is why they listened to Wakefield in the first place. Who then proceeded to do exactly what they feared the medical community was trying to do and lied to them to make money and children suffered and died because of it.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 11:27

inkblot: Feb 22, 2003; by Nyc_Tattoo

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Maher

Bill Maher is human garbage. End of line.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 12:44

Echo Chamber: Oct 16, 2008; best username/post combo

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph

Link is broken. Is there a link I can still share on Facebook?

# ? Apr 15, 2015 13:32

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Gorilla Salad posted:

So the horrible loving irony here is that the very thing they were afraid of is why they listened to Wakefield in the first place. Who then proceeded to do exactly what they feared the medical community was trying to do and lied to them to make money and children suffered and died because of it.

Pretty much, yeah. Exploiting the fears people already had for semi-legit reasons (there's been plenty of medications that were recalled after years on the market because of previously-unnoticed side effects) is one of the most effective types of scam, right up there with exploiting people's greed.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 15:15

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph

You know, a little "common anti-vax bullshit argument - simple and easy to understand refutation" might be useful. Maybe put it in the OP or something.

For instance - vaccines are literally a "workout for your immune system". Your immune system becomes more "robust" and effective when vaccinated, because it has fought and conquered a type of virus. You can picture it as a barbarian warrior with an extra skull on his belt, if that makes you feel better - the vaccine is a free level up, if that's the terminology that makes sense to you.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 15:24

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Xander77 posted:

You know, a little "common anti-vax bullshit argument - simple and easy to understand refutation" might be useful. Maybe put it in the OP or something.

For instance - vaccines are literally a "workout for your immune system". Your immune system becomes more "robust" and effective when vaccinated, because it has fought and conquered a type of virus. You can picture it as a barbarian warrior with an extra skull on his belt, if that makes you feel better - the vaccine is a free level up, if that's the terminology that makes sense to you.

Avoid the workout metaphor- for someone already exposed to antivax rhetoric, that translates to "exhausts the immune system". It's actually one of the tactics used in the delaying line of arguments.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 15:38

Rigged Death Trap: Feb 13, 2012; BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Discendo Vox posted:

Avoid the workout metaphor- for someone already exposed to antivax rhetoric, that translates to "exhausts the immune system". It's actually one of the tactics used in the delaying line of arguments.

How about it gives it a profile of the virus.
Insider spy information for your body to know what it's fighting.

The invaders look like so and act like so.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 15:54

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph

It's not totally ridiculous, considering how much fearmongering the media engages in over antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which are a legit concern but have absolutely blown up in the media since some idiot jackass invented the word "superbug". It looks like he's conflating that with vaccines, since if X thing that used to fight diseases actually creates stronger less-curable diseases that we're more vulnerable to, maybe Y thing does too! If you don't really know the details and don't really care to know them, it sounds pretty reasonable to a layman's common sense to conflate the two, especially in the wake of other recent media scaremongerings that could potentially have bypassed vaccination, like bird flu and swine flu and H1N1. On top of that, the natural-things industry loving loves to use a similar story - that artificial things weaken us and that if we go back to all-natural stuff it will strengthen our body and improve our health in all ways - as their selling point, so most people with money to spare or a Whole Foods within driving range have been exposed to that line of thinking often enough to be inclined to agree with it.

It's dumb, but in more of a "he doesn't really know the details of how these things work" sense rather than the "oh my god how could anyone possibly be this stupid" sense. And you're doing yourself a disservice if you just default to the latter without seriously examining what might have led him to think the way he does, because a lot of other people have been subjected to those same influences. Hell, look at the hardcore paleo diet types, who literally eat raw, slightly-rotted meat because they think cavemen probably ate it and therefore it's more natural and healthier.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 16:15

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Rigged Death Trap posted:

How about it gives it a profile of the virus.
Insider spy information for your body to know what it's fighting.

The invaders look like so and act like so.

I'm not sure that will be effective (they'll divert onto the safety/lies rationale), but it doesn't directly map onto a counterpoint, so it's safer. There's an effortpost somewhere in me about how to approach persuasion in this context, but I'm currently swamped- it'll be a couple weeks.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 16:29

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Sadly, it seems the only effective argument to an anti-vaxxer is "ma'am, the tests came back, your kid has fuckin polio"

# ? Apr 15, 2015 16:45

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# ? May 25, 2024 21:52

Neo Rasa: Mar 8, 2007; Everyone should play DUKE games.

VitalSigns posted:

Sadly, it seems the only effective argument to an anti-vaxxer is "ma'am, the tests came back, your kid has fuckin polio"

Guess the best way to stop the anti-vaxx movement is to put polio in the water with all the deadly flouride.

# ? Apr 15, 2015 16:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Anti-vaccination movement!

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