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So, based on this quote:Effectronica posted:Or to generalize, one example of interactions that appropriate are ones that import the concept while altering the meaning, either completely preserving the trappings like in this case, or preserving enough of the trappings to be confused with the original by lay persons, and all this must happen in an environment where the culture being appropriated from is contiguous to and in an inferior position with regards to the appropriating culture in terms of power And what if someone thinks their culture is important to them? I admitted just such a case in your literal quote of me: "If, for some, they want to be passionate about preserving their own culture, then that is fine. They should do that. But the culture will live so long as they live and practice it.". Just because someone is passionate about something, does not mean everyone must immediately also become passionate about that. They have a space to practice that passion, their own actions, and that is respected. Despite your repeated attempts at claiming I have ever supported extermination or imposition, you will not find a quote supporting that. How many more times must I repeat myself? Will you ever substantiate these claims? Will you ever engage in what I actually said, "If a culture can die in the way you describe, without it being imposed by force, then it must have been by choice. I do not care about that" ? I have also never, not even once, done any of the following: called SedanChair white, doubted the authorship of the Lakota Declaration of War or accused the Native Americans or any minority of not finding their culture important to them. What have I said that made you believe that minorities, or indeed anyone else, must have the same values as myself? I have specifically attacked a value I do not share, but something I believe some have, 'authenticity'. And as for tolerance, I have already described how tolerance works and why it was created, in the first post I mentioned it no less. You are saying that it is wrong: you must back that up. I will not try to counter something you have not provided yet - a counter argument. The closest you came was when you said "people did not value it highly enough!/there was opposition!" which shifts the blame from material factors onto the 'evil' nature of 'some' people. It's the most worthless kind of objection you can raise, because such opposition will always exist. Either it overcomes that, or it cannot. If it cannot, why not? Is it missing something? So far, the reasons you've presented have just been elitist: people are too dumb, and were Bad, etc. rudatron fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 08:03
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Effectronica posted:I mean, it's not something that anyone cares about now, unless you're doing something like carving sacred relics or whatever. Like sacred relics or General Tso's chicken or whatever. Can a Chinese-American open a Mongolian BBQ? Or do they get grandfathered in courtesy of the Yuan dynasty? Same question but inverted, re: Mongolian guy opening Chinese take-out place. Effectronica posted:And it also has led to this idea that SedanChair is white, because he doesn't care about what you "know" black people really care about and since he's light-skinned, he's therefore an easy target. So, in other words, you hold some very racist ideas in the name of fighting racism. Not the first time this has happened. still lollin' at this. For those of you playing along at home, sedanchair is a goony white guy who at some point decided that pretending to be a black guy would give his incredibly lovely D&D one-liners more credibility and authenticity. Not sure if it's technically cultural appropriation however, since I don't think shitposting is a specifically African-American cultural heritage. Still, kind of ironic given the subject of the thread. SedanChair posted:This is the narrative I was referring to above. Racists treat black people differently, and assume that all D&D posters must as well. Therefore I have committed fraud by being light. How dare you accuse me, a proud Navajo woman, of racism? But it's no surprise that a misogynist would have a problem with a woman speaking her mind  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 13, 2015 08:32
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The Insect Court posted:For those of you playing along at home, sedanchair is a goony white guy who at some point decided that pretending to be a black guy would give his incredibly lovely D&D one-liners more credibility and authenticity. Not sure if it's technically cultural appropriation however, since I don't think shitposting is a specifically African-American cultural heritage. Still, kind of ironic given the subject of the thread. This is the narrative I was referring to above. Racists treat black people differently, and assume that all D&D posters must as well. Therefore I have committed fraud by being light.
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Apr 13, 2015 08:33
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Cultural Appropriation is a real policy in Lesotho. It's like a tariff. I don't think they have an easy time of enforcement. as an expat I'm struck by the American naval-contemplation aspect of this conversation. you don't get the opportunity for this sort of conversation without dominating two oceans Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 11:33
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Arglebargle III posted:Cultural Appropriation is a real policy in Lesotho. It's like a tariff. I don't think they have an easy time of enforcement. This thread explodes with activity during the American daytime and then slows down for 8-10 hours at a time. It's almost as if the rest of the world doesn't give a poo poo 
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Apr 13, 2015 12:37
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blowfish posted:ok now we might as well post the picture ~~~ Wow. That said, is it appropriation if a black man from Africa immigrates to the US and starts dressing in Hip Hop styles and speaking African American Vernacular English?
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Apr 13, 2015 13:10
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I identify as a proud black man on the internet.
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Armyman25 posted:Wow. That said, is it appropriation if a black man from Africa immigrates to the US and starts dressing in Hip Hop styles and speaking African American Vernacular English? No, and to suggest this could be the case is either deliberately pretending ignorance or the developmental disability I made reference to earlier.
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Apr 13, 2015 13:37
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It's just so centered in the American experience, you know? The idea of Chinese or Puerto-Rican or Irish identity being threatened by whatever college girls are wearing to parties could only ever make sense in the context of immigrant communities.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:14
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Arglebargle III posted:It's just so centered in the American experience, you know? The idea of Chinese or Puerto-Rican or Irish identity being threatened by whatever college girls are wearing to parties could only ever make sense in the context of immigrant communities. Clearly then the solution is to ban immigration.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:15
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I have tried to read many of ellectronica's posts in this thread. I mean I have started reading them, but then recoiled and not finished. There are only so many words I will read in my whole life. Anyway, true story, I was once the unwitting victim of cultural appropriation. See, at the time, I didn't even know it existed, since I had not yet been trained in identity politics. What happened was, I found myself living abroad, in the people's republic of China. I wasn't aware at the time, but all these Chinese people I saw were appropriating my people's culture. Chinese owned restaurants were competing against KFC and other American traditional restaurants. Chinese people were eschewing their own traditional dress in favor of the costumes of my people. Chinese women carried handbags which imitated those made by the finest craftsmen and designers in the west. Even Chinese men carried these purses! I thought nothing of it at the time, falling back on that old discredited canard of "imitation is the highest form of flattery," that the cultural imperialist capitalist hegemony uses to justify its crimes against humanity. But now I know, I too am a victim. In a way, all of my people are.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:16
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hakimashou posted:I have tried to read many of ellectronica's posts in this thread. I mean I have started reading them, but then recoiled and not finished. There are only so many words I will read in my whole life. What is it about the concept of cultural appropriation that makes people act so weird about it?
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Apr 13, 2015 14:26
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Effectronica posted:But the real issue here is that you, and the majority of people arguing against CA, have this incredibly loving racist idea, which boils down to this: if you believe something is unimportant, obviously minorities, saintly figures that they be, also agree that it isn't important. Therefore, the Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality must have been written by white people, because, you, tsa, and a bunch of other people figure that since you don't consider culture important, Native Americans must not consider culture important. The Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality is like 900 words long you must have whinged for at least 2000 words just in the last couple of pages i mean sure you can find japanese-americans out there complaining about kimonos on hipsters if you look, but 99% of the Internet tantrums about ca are coming from people who are white as poo poo, so 'lol ca is something only white ppl care about' seems basically accurate Let us English posted:This thread explodes with activity during the American daytime and then slows down for 8-10 hours at a time. It's almost as if the rest of the world doesn't give a poo poo yeah i should have said: "Americans who are white as poo poo"
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Apr 13, 2015 14:33
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SedanChair posted:A lot of this discussion has been about who makes money and who stays poor. But true to form, you can't see it, or at least are pretending not to see it. Lol, Indians don't need jobs handcrafting artisan canoes.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:34
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rudatron posted:So, based on this quote: The point with confusion was to avoid idiotic edge cases where people say that because the name has been changed slightly or the costume isn't exact, it's therefore substantially different and not really appropriative. I also outlined how the process works, in that the altered practice, by virtue of being contiguous with the old practice, is thus something that people within the culture must either adopt when dealing with people outside the culture, or reject the other culture as much as possible. Or in cases where the new practice is limited in adoption, attempt to redefine like with the Lakota and plastic shamanism. Maybe you could respond to that? Now, if you think that the loss of diversity and the narrowing of the human mind is OK, an acceptable loss, then I have to say that you're an idiot and an rear end in a top hat. I'm not saying you have ever supported such things, just that your framework offers no way to defend against them because those require defining the other cultures- that they will not adopt the idea that this culture is bad and must be destroyed, or that this idea must be spread to everyone by any means necessary, just as defending against cultural piracy requires that the other cultures agree to adopt ideas wholesale or obviously differentiated. What's interesting would be if we took this idea and applied it to discrimination more generally. We would be, ah-ha, in almost the same situation where we are now- with people unwilling to admit any sort of discrimination possible besides direct Jim Crow laws, and with great hand-wringing about demanding people not be racist or sexist in their actions. On the other hand, dude, you may say that consciously, but pretty much all of your arguments rest on the proposition that this is something only people outside the cultures in question care about. Not so overtly as the other motherfuckers, but it's still on that continuum. If you're going to argue that material factors are the only reason anything happens, I'm just not going to put up with that sort of comically vulgar Marxism. So be warned. The issue there, though, is that you think tolerance was enacted to solve everything, rather than being heavily associated with the rise of gay rights and disability rights and the prominence of subcultures, and the goal being to demand such people be allowed to exist. In which case it has been somewhat successful, but you can see how it doesn't apply to sexism and only applies marginally to racism in that case, right? Granted, you could be arguing as to why it failed to produce an America completely willing to allow homosexuals to exist, in theory, or might in the future, but that's something that would require a major re-evaluation of your argument and you might want to provide some "material factors" too. There's also the issue that if you took a look at the civil rights movement in 1959 or 1952, you'd have to conclude that its strategies were failures, and then you'd be concocting reasons why peaceful protest and civil disobedience and boycotts etc are all completely useless. Of course, now you're going to say that I said that this was definitely the case, which I don't. I'm pointing out why your reasoning is trash you're concocting to argue for some nightmare philosophy which can be explained to one person in ten thousand and be adopted whole-heartedly by no one. The Insect Court posted:Like sacred relics or General Tso's chicken or whatever. They can do it if they prove that they murdered you over a course of three days. Also, you're literally assuming someone can't be black because they have the wrong opinions. Someone should really kill you for being a huge racist. Alas, FEMA concentration camps remain a distant dream.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:34
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Clipperton posted:The Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality is like 900 words long Have you seriously never wondered why you think people must be white in order to hold certain opinions? I mean, granted, you're calling it a "tantrum", so you clearly think that only whites could be childish or stupid enough to believe in such a thing. I guess someone should inform the American Nazi Party we have a motherfucking race traitor on our hands here.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:38
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Miltank posted:Lol, Indians don't need jobs handcrafting artisan canoes. Unemployment among Native Americans is pretty high. Any particular reason you say that, arbiter of what Indians need?
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Apr 13, 2015 14:41
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SedanChair posted:Unemployment among Native Americans is pretty high. Any particular reason you say that, arbiter of what Indians need? They need meaningful employment in large numbers.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:52
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Miltank posted:They need meaningful employment in large numbers. Why don't Native Americans decide for themselves what they need?
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Apr 13, 2015 14:52
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Effectronica posted:Why don't Native Americans decide for themselves what they need?
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Apr 13, 2015 14:53
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Miltank posted:Which ones? All of them. Every single person, free to decide what they need and living in a society where they are able to meet those needs.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:56
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Miltank posted:They need meaningful employment in large numbers. So fix everything at once and ignore specific cases. What a nice way to consign yourself to placid inaction. I mean if Native Americans had greater control over the marketing of their cultural heritage, that might actually make a dent in poverty, but it's not enough all by itself, and it's not white father handing out factory jobs, so let me twiddle my thumbs. Let me twiddle my thumbs forever.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:58
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Effectronica posted:All of them. Every single person, free to decide what they need and living in a society where they are able to meet those needs. If you think that is a rebuttal then I don't know what to say.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:58
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Native americans actually do care about CA guys. Just because they have other problems doesn't stop them caring about it. Read the link i posted late page for a minor example.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:00
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SedanChair posted:Unemployment among Native Americans is pretty high. Any particular reason you say that, arbiter of what Indians need? Says the non native American telling people what native Americans need.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:00
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Miltank posted:If you think that is a rebuttal then I don't know what to say. Well, of course you don't, since you believe that you know for sure what Native Americans need. Jarmak posted:Says the non native American telling people what native Americans need. Hmm, can you point to that happening?
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Apr 13, 2015 15:01
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SedanChair posted:So fix everything at once and ignore specific cases. What a nice way to consign yourself to placid inaction. One guy making artisanal canoes MIGHT earn himself a ticket of the rez. Sorry that you are more concerned with symbolic victories than other people's wellbeing.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:01
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Yes, one guy, one canoe. That's literally all we're talking about. Miltank posted:If you think that is a rebuttal then I don't know what to say. How could we ever know what you know or do not know? The likes of you will always conceal their true thoughts, except for in "safe spaces."
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Apr 13, 2015 15:02
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Effectronica posted:Well, of course you don't, since you believe that you know for sure what Native Americans need. Whereas you know what they want and need.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:03
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Miltank posted:One guy making artisanal canoes MIGHT earn himself a ticket of the rez. Sorry that you are more concerned with symbolic victories than other people's wellbeing. Why are you assuming everyone wants to leave the reservations?
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Apr 13, 2015 15:03
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SedanChair posted:Yes, one guy, one canoe. That's literally all we're talking about. Yes. One white man hypothetically taking an entirely hypothetical job away from an entirely hypothetical native.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:05
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Over and over and over again. Miltank posted:Whereas you know what they want and need. Now who said that? We're just asking questions. I swear, defenders of privilege are better at projection then anybody else.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:06
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Is reservation life part of Indian culture and heritage? Because the ones I know mostly refer to them as prison camps.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:06
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Miltank posted:Whereas you know what they want and need. Did I ever say that? Miltank posted:Have you been to Pine Ridge? That doesn't answer the question. Why are you assuming that everyone wants to leave the reservations?
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Apr 13, 2015 15:06
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Effectronica posted:Did I ever say that? He can't see you not saying it. Folks like this will always be coming from the perspective of controlling all of society and deciding for every minority. Arguments for minority self-determination simply cannot be perceived.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:13
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Don't appropriate the language of spy thrillers.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:14
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Effectronica posted:That doesn't answer the question. Why are you assuming that everyone wants to leave the reservations? Effectronica posted:Did I ever say that? You arguing on their behalf same as me.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:21
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Miltank wearing a cowboy hat: "you can't leave, this is what you get for having such a filthy, debased condition" Miltank with literally nothing changed except for no cowboy hat: " oh my god what a filthy and debased condition! We have to destroy and eradicate the culture of this place at once, and scatter its inhabitants to the four winds" e: Miltank posted:I don't assume everyone wants to leave the rez. Nor would assume that all blacks want to leave the ghetto Because that's where "all blacks" live.
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Apr 13, 2015 15:22
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SedanChair posted:Miltank wearing a cowboy hat: "you can't leave, this is what you get for having such a filthy, debased condition" What in the fucck are you going on about? E: you are so full of poo poo
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Apr 13, 2015 15:24
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Miltank posted:I don't assume everyone wants to leave the rez. Nor would assume that all blacks want to leave the ghetto or anybody in particular would want to leave a place stricken by unbearable poverty and social disfunction. Not all reservations are as much of a hellhole as some I would imagine. There is no such thing as a genius locus. Places cannot have inherent poverty or dysfunction, and abandoning them because of that is idiotic. Am I?
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Apr 13, 2015 15:52
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Effectronica posted:There is no such thing as a genius locus. Places cannot have inherent poverty or dysfunction, and abandoning them because of that is idiotic.
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Apr 13, 2015 16:03
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