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Ornamented Death posted:I really think you're confusing closure with "the story didn't end how I wanted/expected it to." Abercrombie wrapped most everything up, except, as it happens, the one thing you're saying was wrapped up effectively; you don't actually learn the fate of that character until later (though you can make a pretty good assumption, as you did). Sure, he left himself openings for future books, but not at the expense of the story he was telling. Maybe, but the Bayaz reveal feels like the set up to another story. Ending where it did feels incomplete. I guess it is an ending, but only in a "Ha, gently caress you, no happy ending" kind of way.
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Apr 14, 2015 04:28
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Snowman_McK posted:Maybe, but the Bayaz reveal feels like the set up to another story. Ending where it did feels incomplete. I guess it is an ending, but only in a "Ha, gently caress you, no happy ending" kind of way. Sorta? You were right when you said Bayaz is Gandalf as a sociopath taken to a logical conclusion; that's the ending. The whole point is to illustrate that Bayaz has complete control of the Union, most major events of the trilogy happened by his design, and that fighting him is pointless. Just as forewarning, the next three books are not going to resolve that situation beyond further cementing that it's the status quo. I don't know that it will ever get resolved because overthrowing the evil wizard overlord doesn't really seem like a story Abercrombie would tell, at least not for this setting.
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Apr 14, 2015 04:34
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Ornamented Death posted:Sorta? You were right when you said Bayaz is Gandalf as a sociopath taken to a logical conclusion; that's the ending. The whole point is to illustrate that Bayaz has complete control of the Union, most major events of the trilogy happened by his design, and that fighting him is pointless. You may have a point. In that case, I guess maybe I didn't like what it was, because that's really only a resolution in the most cynical terms. It's a pity, because there was so many things I did like. No made up words, no loving maps, the battles lacked any omniscient characters or sudden, ridiculous changes of fortune (like 10 guys holding off hundreds because the writer wrote themselves into a corner) I guess I just didn't want such a clearly talented author to spend three books on what is often kind of a generic set up with such a good punchline.
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Apr 14, 2015 04:41
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Snowman_McK posted:You may have a point. In that case, I guess maybe I didn't like what it was, because that's really only a resolution in the most cynical terms. It's a pity, because there was so many things I did like. You have to be realistic about these things. e: One of Abercrombie's recurring themes is that people often go right up to the edge of changing themselves for the better and then back away. In the First Law series, you have Ferro, Logen, and Jezal, for starters. That theme is never going to look like it ends. ulmont fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 04:44
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ulmont posted:You have to be realistic about these things. Realistic about what, exactly?
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Apr 14, 2015 04:45
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I don't think you'll get any argument that it's cynical, but I also think that's part of the appeal for a lot of people. Still, I think you should probably go ahead and give the other three books a chance. They're all stand-alone stories, and while they don't do much to progress the situation with Bayaz, they have all the elements you like and are just plain better-written in general.
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Apr 14, 2015 04:46
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Snowman_McK posted:Realistic about what, exactly? "You have to be realistic" is Logen's verbal tic in the series, to the point where at least two other characters (Dogman and Jezal) comment on it (occurs about 10 times per book). Here, my point is (as somewhat more expanded in the edit) that cynical status quo is, for better or worse, what Abercrombie does. It's fantasy noir, in a sense; "the problems of [6] little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world," and they never will. Abercrombie does do it better in his other books though. The reveals in Best Served Cold are loving awesome.
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Apr 14, 2015 04:51
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Ornamented Death posted:I don't think you'll get any argument that it's cynical, but I also think that's part of the appeal for a lot of people. I don't think we will ever see what you say in the spoiler happen. Abercrombie uses the epic part of epic fantasy as the backdrop to tell the stories of individual characters, and has said as much on his blog or on twitter. Don't expect anything but small movement, and perhaps some further insight into, Bayaz and Khalul's conflict, what lead up to it, and where it might go.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:34
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Well, at least we're on the same page about it being cynical. The guy in the book shop kept trying to insist it was realistic or honest. You can't really say that about a series where extremes of evil exist but not the extremes of good, which is the same problem I have with A Song of Ice and Fire. Like I said, I enjoyed it a lot and it's really easy to play armchair editor with a completed book. It's as much a symptom of really engaging with them as anything else. If I hadn't been engaged, I wouldn't care about the couple of bits that didn't work for me. Xenix posted:I don't think we will ever see what you say in the spoiler happen. Abercrombie uses the epic part of epic fantasy as the backdrop to tell the stories of individual characters, and has said as much on his blog or on twitter. Don't expect anything but small movement, and perhaps some further insight into, Bayaz and Khalul's conflict, what lead up to it, and where it might go. It wouldn't be out of place for Bayaz to make some basic mistake and then be killed for it. There's precedent in the series. Bethod, who's established as a really clever military tactician, is defeated the same way every other fantasy villain is defeated. By committing his entire force to a major assault against a tiny group of enemies for personal reasons, meaning every single one of his thousands of troops is facing the wrong way. when the real army shows up. The Gurkish fall for almost the exact same trick. I probably will end up reading the other three, but that (non) ending left me without much enthusiasm.
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Apr 14, 2015 09:17
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There's still another trilogy in the works, so Bayaz meeting his end is still well within the realm of possibility.
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Apr 14, 2015 18:44
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If Bayaz dies, I hope it's something utterly stupid. He chokes on a chicken bone while eating his victory dinner or something.
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Apr 14, 2015 19:07
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Grand Prize Winner posted:If Bayaz dies, I hope it's something utterly stupid. He chokes on a chicken bone while eating his victory dinner or something.
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Apr 14, 2015 19:58
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um Grom-Gil-Gorm rules and he'll never fall ok
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Apr 16, 2015 06:17
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Mars4523 posted:Some random horse gets spooked and kicks him in the head. (This is actually my ideal death for Grom-Gil-Gorm in Abercrombie's Shattered Sea series. No man shall kill him, after all.) I want him to pull a Whirrun, myself.
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Apr 16, 2015 06:57
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Snowman_McK posted:Maybe, but the Bayaz reveal feels like the set up to another story. Ending where it did feels incomplete. I guess it is an ending, but only in a "Ha, gently caress you, no happy ending" kind of way. I sort of feel like you're upset that Abercrombie writes like Abercrombie. The things that you don't like about these books are my favourite aspects of his writing, and if there's another trilogy where the evil wizard dies so we can have a happy ending I will feel like I've been cheated and all the previous books have been cheapened.
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Apr 16, 2015 22:06
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I found the conclusion of Last Argument of Kings incredibly satisfying. The first two books set up a lot of dominoes and they all come crashing down by the end. Also, although it was pretty cynical I didn’t find it bleak and depressing. It just sort of seemed like the message was that the people in charge of the world (who in this world are Bayaz and the other magi) are assholes and you can’t really do much about that since they can blow you up if they want to. That seems like a pretty realistic outlook to me. I also like the Glen Cook-style notion that if wizards actually existed they would automatically be in charge of the world because how can you stop a guy who can live forever and blow you up with a thought? Blastedhellscape fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 05:23
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Honestly, my favorite bit of that was that the only character with a "happy" ending was Glokta. Who needs to come back, goddamnit.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:58
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Glokta is Abercrombie's best character. I know he's just tall, crippled Tyrion but gently caress me he's just the perfect mixture of horrifying honesty and black humour. God I love The First Law. I did feel somewhat unsatisfied on my first read through, but I think it's just how things are. I mean, we aren't exactly overthrowing evil irl so why should he write the kind of nostalgic comforting fantasy that portrays this? Bad vs Worse, not Good vs Bad; and all that. The second time round I far better grasped his objective and themes, so I enjoyed the ending much more. E: Also I just finished Richard Morgan's "Land Fit For Heroes" trilogy and would recommend it without reservation. The first book is a little generic but it really, really improves as it goes along and The Dark Defiles is absolutely superb.
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Apr 17, 2015 10:35
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Evfedu posted:Glokta is Abercrombie's best character. I know he's just tall, crippled Tyrion but gently caress me he's just the perfect mixture of horrifying honesty and black humour. God I love The First Law. I don't really equate him to Tyrion at all. There's some vague similarity in that they are pariahs but I feel the circumstances of their disabilities and general outlooks on life are pretty far apart. I like him, too, not just as a character but also personally, despite him being pretty evil.
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Apr 17, 2015 10:37
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It was the stair and porridge monologues. There's a part of a Doctor House in him as well and there's something magnetic about that kind of brutal, destructive honesty.
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Apr 17, 2015 10:40
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ulmont posted:You have to be realistic about these things. I read it more as that people can change themselves but cannot escape their own pasts as the inertia of everything they've done keeps pulling them in the same direction despite their own efforts to change course. Change is possible, but when it comes to a life of violence, its is only doable by the total abandonment and destruction of the person you were, which was what got Logen the few years of peace between the events of TFL and Red Country. "Blood gets you nothing but more blood. It follows me now, always, like my shadow, and like my shadow I can never be free of it." Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 14:27
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Grand Prize Winner posted:If Bayaz dies, I hope it's something utterly stupid. He chokes on a chicken bone while eating his victory dinner or something. For full irony I hope Yoru Sulfur kills him and takes his place.
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Apr 17, 2015 15:56
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I'll be interested in seeing what comes of Ferro. She's now much closer to the Other Side- and I could see her having a half-demon child, or something.
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Apr 19, 2015 02:23
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Just wanted to give my two cents on The Shattered Sea series. If you;re avoiding them because of the YA designation, don't. But for slightly more predictable story arcs and a little less cursing it's the Same Abercrombie you've grown to expect. I'd say that Half a Prince was the worse of the two but that's mainly because it was so much shorter so it felt like chunk Yarvi's character arc suffered for it. Particularly I felt like more time should have been spent on the shipwrecked group traveling home to make Yarvi's growth into a man and bond with those characters seem less sudden. Probably not as philosophically engaging as his First Law books but what they lack in sophistication the Half a X books more than make up for in worthwhile characters and general fun.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:03
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About halfway into reading The Heroes, I also decided to start up running after years. Then I realized that I am empathizing with Gorst. There's at least two or three scenes where he runs in the morning. He better live to the end of this book.
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May 4, 2015 10:53
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Just wanted to give my two cents on The Shattered Sea series. If you;re avoiding them because of the YA designation, don't. But for slightly more predictable story arcs and a little less cursing it's the Same Abercrombie you've grown to expect. I'd say that Half a Prince was the worse of the two but that's mainly because it was so much shorter so it felt like chunk Yarvi's character arc suffered for it. Particularly I felt like more time should have been spent on the shipwrecked group traveling home to make Yarvi's growth into a man and bond with those characters seem less sudden. Probably not as philosophically engaging as his First Law books but what they lack in sophistication the Half a X books more than make up for in worthwhile characters and general fun. The YA vibe is really kind of annoying. If you like teenage crushes and angsty teen povs you won't mind. The first book was pretty good but I'm having trouble finishing the second I don't really care about the two teen characters maybe if they died off it would be more enjoyable.
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May 5, 2015 01:13
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The Gardenator posted:About halfway into reading The Heroes, I also decided to start up running after years. Then I realized that I am empathizing with Gorst. There's at least two or three scenes where he runs in the morning. He better live to the end of this book. He totally makes it and becomes a loving hero to the union. He even gets offered a job by some of the northmen.
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May 5, 2015 06:14
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The Gardenator posted:About halfway into reading The Heroes, I also decided to start up running after years. Then I realized that I am empathizing with Gorst. There's at least two or three scenes where he runs in the morning. He better live to the end of this book. Nothing is goonier than empathizing with Gorst. He's my favorite part of the book, excepting Tunny obviously.
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May 5, 2015 10:06
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Otto Von Jizzmark posted:The YA vibe is really kind of annoying. If you like teenage crushes and angsty teen povs you won't mind. The first book was pretty good but I'm having trouble finishing the second I don't really care about the two teen characters maybe if they died off it would be more enjoyable. The third book is apparently going to have three POV characters (the Princess of Thorvenland, Koll the woodcarver, and some new assassin dude), which hopefully won't be too much for a relatively short book.
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May 5, 2015 18:07
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I'm going to be driving about 26 hours for a move in the next week or so and I figured I'd need some more audio books (I've got like 8 or 9 credits backed up on my Audible account). I've read the First law trilogy, Best Served Cold, and The Heroes. What should my next stop be?
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May 10, 2015 21:02
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Karnegal posted:I'm going to be driving about 26 hours for a move in the next week or so and I figured I'd need some more audio books (I've got like 8 or 9 credits backed up on my Audible account). I've read the First law trilogy, Best Served Cold, and The Heroes. What should my next stop be?
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May 10, 2015 21:05
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My girlfriend and I decided to try reading books together as a sort of couple book club. For this time around I suggested we find some absolute trash fantasy and see how it went. After a couple of suggestions and wandering around the bookstore, I pointed to this, said that I'd heard that it wasn't trash, but might be worth a try. She decided from the blurb that it perfect met her idea of what trash fantasy meant. I wonder if either of us really know what we're getting into. We're both familiar with ASoIaF/GoT, although she's read more of the books than I have. On the flipside, I've read the Prince of Nothing trilogy, but gave up on it halfway through the second trilogy after deciding I really wasn't getting out of it anything I really cared about - it was going through a lot of misery porn and poo poo to get through just to get good parts like Cil-Aujas, aka Super-Moria. I wonder how I'll find this. So far (barely a fifth of the way in) it seems like those books but with a little bit more of a sense of humour. Logen and Glokta are interesting enough but Jezal's chapter made him seem a bit insufferable to the point I was wondering if he was the Designated Dead Hero Walking. Girlfriend isn't particularly impressed with Ardee, but that might change if she gets a point of view - or, for that matter, a good personality view of literally any other woman.
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May 18, 2015 05:41
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bewilderment posted:My girlfriend and I decided to try reading books together as a sort of couple book club. For this time around I suggested we find some absolute trash fantasy and see how it went. After a couple of suggestions and wandering around the bookstore, I pointed to this, said that I'd heard that it wasn't trash, but might be worth a try. She decided from the blurb that it perfect met her idea of what trash fantasy meant. I wonder if either of us really know what we're getting into. Yeah don't hold your breath on good female POVs, you need to get to Best Served Cold for that.
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May 20, 2015 03:49
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It takes a long time for there to be a particularly good woman. Ardee gets better I guess but yeah... I'd argue that Red Country is the first woman that isn't fairly bad. Still my favorite fantasy series, but Abercrombie took some time to be able to write women. Jezal gets better, though.
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May 20, 2015 07:45
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SavTargaryen posted:It takes a long time for there to be a particularly good woman. Ardee gets better I guess but yeah... I'd argue that Red Country is the first woman that isn't fairly bad. Still my favorite fantasy series, but Abercrombie took some time to be able to write women. Jezal gets better, though. What's wrong with Finree?
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May 20, 2015 10:12
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I actually kind of liked Ferro the Grumpy Demon-Lady, but apparently I’m the only person who did. A lot of the passages from her perspective were hilarious, and in a way she was the only consistently good judge of character in the series. Definitely the least three dimensional of the PoV characters, but I didn’t think she was terrible. Although Jezal actually grows a lot I really enjoyed his early chapters in The Blade Itself. He was such a complete and oblivious dick that it managed to work somehow and be entertaining from the start.
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May 21, 2015 06:22
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I feel like i'm the only one that really liked Jezal. he was obviously a spoiled brat early in the series but was entertaining enough to be interesting, even if I didn't like him. By the end of the series, I saw how he really tried to change to be a better person but was kinda stomped down, so I sympathized with him quite a bit. Most of the comments in this thread seem to amount to "Jezal was a terrible character and never got better", to which I disagree with both points!
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May 21, 2015 06:50
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SavTargaryen posted:It takes a long time for there to be a particularly good woman. Ardee gets better I guess but yeah... I'd argue that Red Country is the first woman that isn't fairly bad. Still my favorite fantasy series, but Abercrombie took some time to be able to write women. Jezal gets better, though.
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May 22, 2015 05:03
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I was tired and literally forgot both of those characters existed. Finree and Monza both own and I'm a little baffled that I just straight up forgot about two major characters in books that I've read more than once. What the hell, brain. Disregard my opinions I am obviously a crazy person.
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May 23, 2015 00:21
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What's wrong with Vitari?
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