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Angry Grimace posted:Uh, yeah that's the point. I know the rule. It's just rules lawyering since there's no practical difference and no real game actions had occurred. You're already being cut a bunch of slack at FNM though. If you miss a "may" trigger, it's not rules lawyering if your opponent doesn't let you have it. That's just them trying to win and holding you to the rules of the game, which shouldn't be mocked or discouraged, even at FNM.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:25
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Ciprian Maricon posted:I understand it wasn't relevant at the time and so from your perspective with perfect information it seems immaterial, but from a rules/your opponent perspective drawing a card is an incredibly relevant game action with the potential to make a significant difference. Except in reality its not an incredibly important game action with the potential to make a significant difference. I literally cannot fathom a scenario where what I drew would make any difference whatsoever as to whether I would want to cast Ojutai's Summons for free 5 seconds earlier. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 07:30
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qbert posted:You're already being cut a bunch of slack at FNM though. If you miss a "may" trigger, it's not rules lawyering if your opponent doesn't let you have it. That's just them trying to win and holding you to the rules of the game, which shouldn't be mocked or discouraged, even at FNM. This can't be stressed enough. Just because it isn't competetive rhel doesn't mean it's kitchen table. There is a judge there for a reason. It's s tournament you payed money to be in that has sometimes substantial prizes going out. I mean 6-10 boosters or a PPTQ entry fee is decent change. I'm not saying call a judge for every infraction ever but following the rules of the game is still important. I learned to pay attention to my triggers and keep track of things better because I screwed up at FNMs over the years and people correctly held me to the proper standards of play. If you are used to take backs and just letting things go constantly you never have a consequence to learn from. You play lazy that way. When I had my appendix taken out earlier this year my buddy came up to the hospital to keep me company and play some cards. Even with an anesthesia hangover and on narcotics I played Sidisi whip and didn't miss triggers because it was ingrained into my reptile brain. He told me afterward it was pretty funny because even while I couldn't speak without a slur I knew I had to mill the Nyx weaver every turn it was in play because of the little 4 sided die I use on top of my deck when I have a pre draw trigger to remember.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:34
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I'm honestly not sure what to say if you don't think drawing a card is a relevant action with the potential to change lines of play or outcomes. If you mean specifically your situation, maybe that's true but that remains irrelevant. We cannot write rules that can determine whether something like drawing a card is or is not relevant in a particular set of circumstances so we have to assume it always is or is not and at this point in time, we assume drawing a card is always a significant action. As for the other part, if you believe the player is intentionally cheating he should be DQ'ed from the event, otherwise, that is the correct solution to game rule violation. Either way his cheating/violation doesn't have any impact on the decision about your missed trigger. It sounds like you're just salty.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:35
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Ciprian Maricon posted:I'm honestly not sure what to say if you don't think drawing a card is a relevant action with the potential to change lines of play or outcomes. I would like to hear you describe one that could actually occur in a DTK-DTK-FRF draft. Seriously.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:36
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There's a middle ground here. Pro-Tour Sharks -- if you're playing at FNM, know that you'll be facing people who have never attended an event larger than a pre-release, or maybe just showed up with their sweet mill deck, and might not read about cardboard wizards cards on internet forums. If they don't know exactly how a mechanic works, you have the opportunity to teach them, and help them better understand the game you obviously care a lot about. If you try to squeeze a victory out of a new player based off a rules violation, you're giving bad feels to them, making yourself look petty, and making the game worse on the whole. Unless you have specific reason to believe the new player to be cheating, you should let them slide on infractions that do not drastically change game state, or let them rewind to a game state where the infraction can be fixed. FNM Newcomers -- you're stepping up your game and that's good, but it comes with responsibility. You gotta know how each mechanic in standard works, at least on a basic level. If you miss a trigger due to your not being mindful of it, you should admit your error, and resign to your mistake if your opponent doesn't want to rewind game-state. It will help you to remember next time. Messing up is a great way to get better at Magic, and petitioning for a do-over just robs yourself of a chance to do that.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:39
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What if your opponent is going to be eaten by wild dogs? Rule infraction, even at casual REL. So that's one.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:39
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Angry Grimace posted:I would like to hear you describe one that could actually occur in a DTK-DTK-FRF draft. Seriously. You have only 2 cards in hand both lands. Ojutai's Breath is going to rebound tapping a potentially lethal attacker, your opponent is prepared with Feat of Resistance, the card on top of your library is Contradict. Whether you rebound before or after a draw is incredibly relevant. Seriously, its not hard man. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 07:39
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Angry Grimace posted:I would like to hear you describe one that could actually occur in a DTK-DTK-FRF draft. Seriously. Your opponent controls Illusory Gains attached to a 1/1 token. If you miss the Ojutai's Summons trigger, you prevent them from getting a 2/2 Flyer instead. You then draw Enchantment removal and suddenly decide you don't mind that 2/2 coming into play after all.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:41
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Okay, okay. Its not like I fought it. It just seems dumb on the very first draft of a large set with several new mechanics.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:43
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edit: didn't mean to pile on
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Apr 14, 2015 07:43
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qbert posted:Your opponent controls Illusory Gains attached to a 1/1 token. If you miss the Ojutai's Summons trigger, you prevent them from getting a 2/2 Flyer instead. I don't think the point would be that I could play the card drawn. Although, yeah I guess the opponent doesn't really know what I drew so I guess its possible I could just flat out cheat. So there's that.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:45
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Angry Grimace posted:I don't think the point would be that I could play the card drawn. What are you talking about? In my scenario intentionally missing the trigger is beneficial to you, but then you see the top card of your library and realize that it's now more beneficial NOT to miss the trigger. The only thing that changed is knowledge of what your draw step would be that turn.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:47
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qbert posted:What are you talking about? In my scenario intentionally missing the trigger is beneficial to you, but then you see the top card of your library and realize that it's now more beneficial NOT to miss the trigger. The only thing that changed is knowledge of what your draw step would be that turn. Because I meant to quote the other guy.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:48
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You have monastery mentor in play and 1 monk token. They are sitting on 1 courser and are at 6 life with a whip in play and a board wipe flipped up with nothing in hand. You have no cards in hand and are not going to be attacking because you don't want them to gain life. You forget your flyer trigger and draw a roast. Suddenly you can win the game is turn if that flyer comes in with 2 prowess triggers and the creatures on board. You say "oh yeah the ojutais summons was supposed to go off. So add token with prowess, add another token. Roast your courser, prowess trigger another token, attack for 7." You weren't planning on attacking until that removes spell came up and you didn't care about the token because it was going to get blown up until you saw that roast. Now you know you can win right now. That's a big game state change. This situation would literally never happen. Just saying.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:49
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Angry Grimace posted:I don't think the point would be that I could play the card drawn. Although, yeah I guess the opponent doesn't really know what I drew so I guess its possible I could just flat out cheat. So there's that. Yeah that's pretty much the point. Drawing is a game action in that sense, so it's a missed trigger. And yeah, don't put cards on top of your library, especially in a format with Courser. Put a dice or a token or something like that. Even a piece of paper with "Rebound" is okay
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Apr 14, 2015 07:49
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Angry Grimace posted:I don't think the point would be that I could play the card drawn. Although, yeah I guess the opponent doesn't really know what I drew so I guess its possible I could just flat out cheat. So there's that. Just the information gained is relevant. "I'm drawing enchantment removal so it doesn't matter if my opponent gets the 2/2 for the time being". If you weren't drawing enchantment removal, upgrading their 1/1 into a 2/2 could be bad for you.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:50
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Errant Gin Monks posted:You have monastery mentor in play and 1 monk token. They are sitting on 1 courser and are at 6 life with a whip in play and a board wipe flipped up with nothing in hand. You have no cards in hand and are not going to be attacking because you don't want them to gain life. You forget your flyer trigger and draw a roast. Suddenly you can win the game is turn if that flyer comes in with 2 prowess triggers and the creatures on board. I guess I just don't take FNM seriously enough to worry about the incredibly slim chance my opponent could have gained some kind of game-breaking advantage. It's not like I complained about it to the guy or argued to get the token.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:52
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Angry Grimace posted:Okay, okay. I sympathize, but we need a basic standard as far as rules enforcement is concerned, and currently our basic standard means you've missed your trigger.
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Apr 14, 2015 08:06
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Rules lawyering is putting technicality above fun and sportsmanship and is dumb awful nerd bullshit. Angry Grimace wasn't trying to rewind a turn and do things over in a smarter way, he was just trying to hit a trigger he absentmindedly skipped. There's no reason to not let him have that trigger other than because it's advantageous to not let him and technically that's how the rules work. Like who cares if it had a big effect on the board state or not? I'd rebound Ojutai's Breath just to rebound it even if I planned to wipe the board that turn or kill their only creature because gently caress it why not. There's no reason anyone would purposely skip a rebound trigger unless they had no viable target, so yeah not letting someone rebound because they drew too fast is dumb rules lawyering bullshit and it's only justified if you're competing for like thousands of dollars in potential cash prizes. If you're not you're just That Guy and nobody likes you. This "sanctity of the rules" nonsense is super asinine. FNM exists for people to have fun. Judges are there so when some guy tries to chain sac Flamewake Phoenix to his Butcher of the Horde you can have someone with authority tell him no, not so you can scream that someone drew a card without announcing their trigger and so gently caress them I MUST WIN AT ALL COSTS. 
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Apr 14, 2015 08:33
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Rules lawyering is putting technicality above fun and sportsmanship and is dumb awful nerd bullshit. Angry Grimace wasn't trying to rewind a turn and do things over in a smarter way, he was just trying to hit a trigger he absentmindedly skipped. There's no reason to not let him have that trigger other than because it's advantageous to not let him and technically that's how the rules work. Like who cares if it had a big effect on the board state or not? I'd rebound Ojutai's Breath just to rebound it even if I planned to wipe the board that turn or kill their only creature because gently caress it why not. There's no reason anyone would purposely skip a rebound trigger unless they had no viable target, so yeah not letting someone rebound because they drew too fast is dumb rules lawyering bullshit and it's only justified if you're competing for like thousands of dollars in potential cash prizes. If you're not you're just That Guy and nobody likes you. This "sanctity of the rules" nonsense is super asinine. FNM exists for people to have fun. Judges are there so when some guy tries to chain sac Flamewake Phoenix to his Butcher of the Horde you can have someone with authority tell him no, not so you can scream that someone drew a card without announcing their trigger and so gently caress them I MUST WIN AT ALL COSTS. If a player is using the rules to angle shoot then they're at best a jerk and at worst are deliberately failing to maintain the game state, which is cheating. This is incredibly rare
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Apr 14, 2015 08:45
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Angry Grimace posted:I guess I just don't take FNM seriously enough to worry about the incredibly slim chance my opponent could have gained some kind of game-breaking advantage. I known and normally I so led let some nog like that slide and say it's cool. But if you miss enough triggers I'm going to get fed up sooner or later. I used to miss them all the time and people saying "No start paying attention" really made me pay attention and work out a system to prevent it. I used to miss dark confidant triggers constantly and got enough warnings and ribbings from my friends that I don't miss them anymore because it frustrated me to screw it up. If everyone let everything slide all the time play would just be too sloppy and people would never learn enough to go up the competetive scale effectively. I guess playing doomsday for 6 months also helped. That deck was such a headache to plan out and keep track of it helped immensely with my playing.
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Apr 14, 2015 09:21
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There is nothing wrong with playing FNM by the rules of the game and not encouraging sloppy play through takebacks on misplays. If you want to play magic with takebacks understand that that is a house rule and not one that should be encouraged at FNM. Honestly the best way to play things out is hold people to their misplays and if they miss triggers remind the. About it after the game so they learn. I can guarantee they are going to learn more from the punt than from getting to takeback their misplay.
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Apr 14, 2015 09:36
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Sigma-X posted:There is nothing wrong with playing FNM by the rules of the game and not encouraging sloppy play through takebacks on misplays. Missed triggers are the only misplay you can choose to not tell your opponent about. Anything else, you're cheating
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Apr 14, 2015 09:52
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Can we rewind this thread to before Errant Gin Monks' post at 5:06 and counter his post before it resolves? Jesus loving Christ, you bastards have been arguing about this poo poo for literally 12 hours. I can't figure out where the gently caress it went, but one of my copies of Thoughtseize disappeared from my deckbox in the last week and a half. I had to order a copy off amazon and pay the expedited fee in the hopes that it would get here in time for Friday. I don't think it was stolen on purpose, because I do keep my deck with me at all times, but it's possible it might have been dropped accidentally, but it's annoying as poo poo. Anil Dikshit fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 11:12
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mfcrocker posted:Missed triggers are the only misplay you can choose to not tell your opponent about. Anything else, you're cheating I think he means misplay in the lay sense, not actual game rules violations, but I could be wrong. Judge!?!
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Apr 14, 2015 11:12
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Playing a sanctioned sealed event but casual and I was playing a guy who seemed to be quite nervous. I attacked and he declared blockers, then played a spell (can't remember which one). I said "you sure you want to do that, it makes no difference to the outcome cos they'll still trade anyway and you'll have wasted a spell?" so he took it back. Moral of the crappy story, I throw away games because I hate to see horrible misplays.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:40
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kizudarake posted:Can we rewind this thread to before Errant Gin Monks' post at 5:06 and counter his post before it resolves? Jesus loving Christ, you bastards have been arguing about this poo poo for literally 12 hours.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:21
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Lancelot posted:I'm sorry that you don't like discussion of magic rules in the magic thread? I've actually found this discussion pretty interesting, which may or may not have anything to do with mcmagic being probated. Hour one and two were ok, but when it turned out that hours 4-12 were straight up "tryhard!" "Scrub!", I got sick of it.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:35
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Someone make a deck whose main win condition is making your opponent gently caress up rules and board dtate
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Apr 14, 2015 13:53
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pointsofdata posted:Someone make a deck whose main win condition is making your opponent gently caress up rules and board dtate So pretty much any deck that plays Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in legacy?
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Apr 14, 2015 13:56
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kizudarake posted:Hour one and two were ok, but when it turned out that hours 4-12 were straight up "tryhard!" "Scrub!", I got sick of it. Personally the whole discussion has legitimately made me feel a lot better about the MTG community, especially the original reaction 
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Apr 14, 2015 13:56
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pointsofdata posted:Someone make a deck whose main win condition is making your opponent gently caress up rules and board dtate It's called Green White Devotion
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Apr 14, 2015 14:03
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Most of the time at FNM I just let the little mistakes slide (god knows I make enough of them), and encourage others to play to learn when called (but will side to the rules if in any doubt), but I was against one of the other L1's on week 2 of 3x Khans draft. He casts Trumpet Blast and then declares attackers, you're damned right I don't let him re-order the plays. Firstly, he's a judge, secondly, it's a reprint, so it's not like he's unaware of the card. Thirdly, I get a little tired of his poo poo anyway, so winning a game I didn't deserve to made up for the times I get screwed against him and he gets a smug look. I'm a bad person.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:10
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Rules lawyering is putting technicality above fun and sportsmanship and is dumb awful nerd bullshit. Angry Grimace wasn't trying to rewind a turn and do things over in a smarter way, he was just trying to hit a trigger he absentmindedly skipped. There's no reason to not let him have that trigger other than because it's advantageous to not let him and technically that's how the rules work. Like who cares if it had a big effect on the board state or not? I'd rebound Ojutai's Breath just to rebound it even if I planned to wipe the board that turn or kill their only creature because gently caress it why not. There's no reason anyone would purposely skip a rebound trigger unless they had no viable target, so yeah not letting someone rebound because they drew too fast is dumb rules lawyering bullshit and it's only justified if you're competing for like thousands of dollars in potential cash prizes. If you're not you're just That Guy and nobody likes you. This "sanctity of the rules" nonsense is super asinine. FNM exists for people to have fun. Judges are there so when some guy tries to chain sac Flamewake Phoenix to his Butcher of the Horde you can have someone with authority tell him no, not so you can scream that someone drew a card without announcing their trigger and so gently caress them I MUST WIN AT ALL COSTS. LOL yeah this is why this is all funny to me even though I could've been a judge for the past 2 years and keep getting urged to by my community. Even at worlds, x-wing doesn't have this problem and people allowed takebacks of an obviously incorrect maneuver direction that would take a ship off the board. Worlds! And people are this petty and anal about cardboard wizards at an FNM level. I'd actually like to visit these places you guys talk about that have substantial FNM rewards. I've been to a lot of places and the most you'd get is 15-20bux of store credit with a perfect record. Yeah sure piss in your own pool and make little timmy not come back. I've stated before that I've allowed people to correct obvious misplays at GPs and still day 2 them - or top 8 PTQs or whatever. I'd much rather win cleanly than cuz hurf durf some guy forgot some trigger. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 14:25
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pointsofdata posted:Someone make a deck whose main win condition is making your opponent gently caress up rules and board dtate You should play Judge Tower.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:27
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Chill la Chill posted:LOL yeah this is why this is all funny to me even though I could've been a judge for the past 2 years and keep getting urged to by my community. Even at worlds, x-wing doesn't have this problem and people allowed takebacks of an obviously incorrect maneuver direction that would take a ship off the board. Worlds! And people are this petty and anal about cardboard wizards at an FNM level. I'd actually like to visit these places you guys talk about that have substantial FNM rewards. I've been to a lot of places and the most you'd get is 15-20bux of store credit with a perfect record. Yeah sure piss in your own pool and make little timmy not come back. I want to play X-Wing Regionals and I need a 100 point build. WHAT DO I NEED TO BUY TO WIN
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Apr 14, 2015 14:36
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Ramos posted:You should play Judge Tower. Judge Stack: not even once.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:40
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kizudarake posted:Hour one and two were ok, but when it turned out that hours 4-12 were straight up "tryhard!" "Scrub!", I got sick of it.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:45
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Ramos posted:You should play Judge Tower. That looks like a hell of a lot of fun. I need to find a group of people who play that.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:48
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