|
I too harken back to the days when we coudln't aim bombs very well and just dropped like thousands of the loving things all over the place
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 11:16 |
|
|
Crain posted:I didn't see this here today: A man committed suicide at the US capitol holding a "Tax the 1%" sign. Random Chinese Man Burns Self to Death - Chanted Messages While Doing So
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:17
|
|
|
Stereotype posted:I too harken back to the days when we coudln't aim bombs very well and just dropped like thousands of the loving things all over the place I know right? You could off-target by literal miles and no one gave a poo poo. Man, those were the days.  Yeah, it may be impersonal, but as long as ya'll are going to kill civilian bystanders anyway, I'll take a dozen or fewer murders, over hundreds.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:34
|
|
|
Joementum posted:All war is a crime. Hope this helps. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:39
|
|
|
Joementum posted:All war is a crime. Hope this helps.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:40
|
|
|
Boon posted:Yes. Hope that helps form your opinion on the history of our stand-off death machines. OK, so then I dislike both fairly equally and i'm not freaking out about tech, but still laughing at liberals defending programs they wouldn't have under Bush. Stereotype posted:I too harken back to the days when we coudln't aim bombs very well and just dropped like thousands of the loving things all over the place I dislike the firebombing of civilian populations in Japan and Germany at least as much the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki due to the higher bodycount. But yet I'm leftist and ATOMS, I am so conflicted I cannot fit a stereotype properly. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:43
|
|
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:She has only Mark Kirk announced he'd support her, so she's got 5 republican senators who've pledged their support. And if one of them flips there's still one man who can come to her rescue: 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:45
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:and i'm not freaking out about tech, but still laughing at liberals defending programs they wouldn't have under Bush. Don't conflate equipment with policy. Drones improve the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of the military, so you ideally do less collateral damage for less money to accomplish the same goals. Having drones around does not generate new incentives to strike, we make drones because we have a lot of targets we want to strike already. It is fully possible to have a nuanced position that says we shouldn't be blowing so much poo poo up, but if we're going to, we might as well use drone strikes over other options.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:13
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Don't conflate equipment with policy. Drones improve the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of the military, so you ideally do less collateral damage for less money to accomplish the same goals. Having drones around does not generate new incentives to strike, we make drones because we have a lot of targets we want to strike already. It is fully possible to have a nuanced position that says we shouldn't be blowing so much poo poo up, but if we're going to, we might as well use drone strikes over other options. This, investment in drone technology is good and there are TONS of civilian applications. Military drones exist because there is a demand, not because people are trying to create one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:15
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Don't conflate equipment with policy. Drones improve the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of the military, so you ideally do less collateral damage for less money to accomplish the same goals. Having drones around does not generate new incentives to strike, we make drones because we have a lot of targets we want to strike already. It is fully possible to have a nuanced position that says we shouldn't be blowing so much poo poo up, but if we're going to, we might as well use drone strikes over other options. Pretend I emptyquoted this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:17
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Don't conflate equipment with policy. Drones improve the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of the military, so you ideally do less collateral damage for less money to accomplish the same goals. Having drones around does not generate new incentives to strike, we make drones because we have a lot of targets we want to strike already. It is fully possible to have a nuanced position that says we shouldn't be blowing so much poo poo up, but if we're going to, we might as well use drone strikes over other options. As far as I understand it, the counterargument says that the drone technology creates the appearance of a relatively bloodless solution to military conflicts, and thus changing the public's mental calculus about the consequences of going to war. It's less that the technology itself is the problem so much as it enables a sort of psychological distancing when making decisions, or selling it to the public politically.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:19
|
|
|
Crain posted:I didn't see this here today: A man committed suicide at the US capitol holding a "Tax the 1%" sign. This is hilarious. Let's discuss the world views of James Holmes, Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczysnki, and Anders Breivik for months and years on end, but holy hell we couldn't possibly talk about such a dangerous philosophy as "tax the 1.%" That's just beyond the pale!
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:23
|
|
|
Neeksy posted:As far as I understand it, the counterargument says that the drone technology creates the appearance of a relatively bloodless solution to military conflicts, and thus changing the public's mental calculus about the consequences of going to war. It's less that the technology itself is the problem so much as it enables a sort of psychological distancing when making decisions, or selling it to the public politically. I'm pretty sure both Iraq wars already created the appearance of relatively bloodless conflict (the first one especially) so not really. Besides, if we didn't have drones those bombing missions would just go to Navy pilots or cruse missiles anyway, only with even more collateral damage since a strike would need to be approved since we would be bombing where targets have been or might be instead of just sticking a drone over an area while it waits for the actual target of that strike to get confirmed.* *What is suppose to happen all the time but doesn't.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:27
|
|
|
Neeksy posted:As far as I understand it, the counterargument says that the drone technology creates the appearance of a relatively bloodless solution to military conflicts, and thus changing the public's mental calculus about the consequences of going to war. It's less that the technology itself is the problem so much as it enables a sort of psychological distancing when making decisions, or selling it to the public politically. This is worthless hand-wringing though. Literally every military advancement from the club onwards makes achieving objectives any or all of less costly, faster, or more reliable. It's missing the forest for the trees (the problem is interventionism/military-industrialism, not a piece of equipment), and is a waste of time and effort to discuss.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:28
|
|
|
A Winner is Jew posted:I'm pretty sure both Iraq wars already created the appearance of relatively bloodless conflict (the first one especially) so not really. Besides, if we didn't have drones those bombing missions would just go to Navy pilots or cruse missiles anyway, only with even more collateral damage since a strike would need to be approved since we would be bombing where targets have been or might be instead of just sticking a drone over an area while it waits for the actual target of that strike to get confirmed.* I agree that even if we didn't have drones, there are more than enough people in power willing to continue greasing the gears of the war machine with the blood of soldiers and citizens no matter how ugly the results look. But as far as I understand it, the people who argue against drones are not always going after them from the "they're bad tech" angle but more about the optics of war in politics.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:32
|
|
|
Neeksy posted:As far as I understand it, the counterargument says that the drone technology creates the appearance of a relatively bloodless solution to military conflicts, and thus changing the public's mental calculus about the consequences of going to war. It's less that the technology itself is the problem so much as it enables a sort of psychological distancing when making decisions, or selling it to the public politically. While that may be what the perception of drone technology may be, it's worth noting that the perception is pretty much dead wrong. Aside from the fact that most drone targets don't exactly have air defense systems and the missions would be relatively low-risk for the pilot in any event, drones still have to land and re-arm at traditional airbases in-theater. While these airbases are typically well-protected, they're still vulnerable to attack and so long as the US is fighting in those areas personnel will continue to be at risk.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:36
|
|
|
fool_of_sound posted:This is worthless hand-wringing though. Literally every military advancement from the club onwards makes achieving objectives any or all of less costly, faster, or more reliable. It's missing the forest for the trees (the problem is interventionism/military-industrialism, not a piece of equipment), and is a waste of time and effort to discuss. Yeah, I myself am more concerned about the general trends of interventionism/military-industrialism in the US, but want to understand the critiques about drones a bit better since I see them come up pretty frequently.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:38
|
|
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:"Man dies in Saigon street in an apparent religious message."  " angle.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:43
|
|
|
SubponticatePoster posted:I was thinking more the "we don't want the job creators' TM to feel bad! Kind of surprising they're not framing it as yet another dumb impulsive emotional illogical hippie just being another one of their melodramatic selves to discredit their viewpoint.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:49
|
|
|
There's only one Cruz missile worth worrying about, anyway.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:05
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:05
|
|
|
Neeksy posted:As far as I understand it, the counterargument says that the drone technology creates the appearance of a relatively bloodless solution to military conflicts, and thus changing the public's mental calculus about the consequences of going to war. It's less that the technology itself is the problem so much as it enables a sort of psychological distancing when making decisions, or selling it to the public politically. When war is "clean" people support war. When war is "dirty", people support it just as much because bah gawd we need revenge for Cousin Bobby. I'm sorry but the argument simply doesn't comport with reality. There was no increase in popularity of military intervention due to cruise missiles or drone strikes, the population of the US is generally bloodthirsty as long as they don't have to get drafted (and these measures don't make it less likely) and the people making the military decisions really don't care if some grunts/junior officers die. Hell look at the Vietnam War: it continued for years after people got generally pissed at it, because the people making military decisions just aren't that vulnerable to public opinion.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:11
|
|
|
The Real War Crime 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:15
|
|
|
The blue is her party, and the red arrow is where she stands in relation to Democratic Party views. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:46
|
|
|
Personally, I'd like to see the US murdering less people abroad regardless of which remote technology they're using.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:57
|
|
|
AndNowMax posted:Mark Kirk announced he'd support her, so she's got 5 republican senators who've pledged their support. And if one of them flips there's still one man who can come to her rescue: Reminder that the GOP hates Holder and they want him gone. She might get in with 50+Biden but it'll be that barest of margins solely to make sure they get rid of holder while being as rear end in a top hat-ish as possible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:03
|
|
|
Karnegal posted:Personally, I'd like to see the US murdering less people abroad regardless of which remote technology they're using. Why? Clearly you've never held an elected office, nor been in a position to influence policy, of at least minimal import. We don't kill people because its easy, we kill people because we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves were we to cease. Americans in positions of policy influence have given up on the belief that its possible to defeat an idea. Well, I tell you what, we killed our way to defeating the ideals of fascism in WW2, and we're certainly not going to defeat the ideals of radical islam by eliminating fewer designsted targets within the containment zones.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:04
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Why? Clearly you've never held an elected office, nor been in a position to influence policy, of at least minimal import. We don't kill people because its easy, we kill people because we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves were we to cease. So what you're saying is when all you have is a drone, everything looks like a terrorist training camp? Cause unfortunately for the hawks this time around, religious extremists don't have something as fragile as a nation-state to kick over to prove their ideology false. If they did, the "Hurr hurr glass the middle east" solution might hold water. In fact, kicking over nation-states only seems to make the problem worse. Citation: Iraq
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:13
|
|
|
Is this some kind of reverse Konami code that causes you to lose all 4 lives?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:18
|
|
|
Warmachine posted:So what you're saying is when all you have is a drone, everything looks like a terrorist training camp? Cause unfortunately for the hawks this time around, religious extremists don't have something as fragile as a nation-state to kick over to prove their ideology false. If they did, the "Hurr hurr glass the middle east" solution might hold water. When the consequences of missing one terrorist training camp are a modern pearl harbour and 8 trillion in response spending over 20 years, you tend to err on the side of individual responsibility. Namely, since you cannot reasonably expect adequate reparations and compensation for stateless actions, individuals have the responsibility to unambiguously organize against local terrorist training camps in a manner which is politically expedient to both the Democratic and Republican Congressional delegations before we have to enact policies which will take adequate action on individual's behalf. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Apr 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:20
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:When the consequences of missing one terrorist training camp are a modern pearl harbour and 8 trillion in response spending over 20 years, you tend to err on the side of individual responsibility. Namely, since you cannot reasonably expect adequate reparations and compensation for stateless actions, individuals have the responsibility to unambiguously organize against local terrorist training camps in a manner which is politically expedient to both the Democratic and Republican Congressional delegations before we have to enact policies which will take adequate action on individual's behalf. "9/11 happened because we missed a terrorist training camp" Gee whiz, I wonder why the terrorist training camps were set-up in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:33
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:"9/11 happened because we missed a terrorist training camp" Because we missed the window of pre-MAD opportunity to take down the entire terrorist training camp then known as the Soviet Union. And yeah, 9/11 was the result of missing a terrorist training camp. Specifically, the one in Florida which trained the hijackers. Had we been less fearful of politically incorrect profiling of KSA nationals learning to fly jetliners in America, we could have avoided that whole Afghan excursion and focused on the true rogue state of the world, Iran.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:36
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Because we missed the window of pre-MAD opportunity to take down the entire terrorist training camp then known as the Soviet Union. Can you please stop? There's an actual discussion that could be had here and all you're doing is making it impossible to have it in the first place with your absurd escalations in rhetoric.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:38
|
|
|
Good Citizen posted:Is this some kind of reverse Konami code that causes you to lose all 4 lives? 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 07:52
|
|
|
Somebody found MIGF's central computer and stuck in the Curtis Lemay tape.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:08
|
|
|
I just really dont buy into this argument that things will get worse with republicans and we should vote for hillary. why are people so afraid to do the work our communities need? like organizing locally? organizing with the poor? listening and learning from peoples stories? doing more community empowerment? how are these things more difficult than dealing with the repercussions of being further recognized and included into a liberal state
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:11
|
|
|
Anime Curator posted:I just really dont buy into this argument that things will get worse with republicans and we should vote for hillary. why are people so afraid to do the work our communities need? like organizing locally? organizing with the poor? listening and learning from peoples stories? doing more community empowerment? how are these things more difficult than dealing with the repercussions of being further recognized and included into a liberal state People aren't afraid of doing those things. People are poor and don't have a hell of a lot of free time and may not be sufficiently educated or empowered. Yes, Hillary/the DNC might not be the best choice (for whatever definition of 'choice' you may have taking into consideration the formalization of the two-party system), but there's a difference between the candidate whose positions you are in favor of the most, and the candidate who can actually win, and just because people suggest the latter stance does not mean that the long-term approach of "vote Socialists for dog-catcher/city councilor so the country can start its slow lurch into progressivism" isn't or shouldn't also be done.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:41
|
|
|
Anime Curator posted:I just really dont buy into this argument that things will get worse with republicans and we should vote for hillary. why are people so afraid to do the work our communities need? like organizing locally? organizing with the poor? listening and learning from peoples stories? doing more community empowerment? how are these things more difficult than dealing with the repercussions of being further recognized and included into a liberal state If you don't buy into the argument, then follow your heart. Don't vote for her. Try to go out to your local Wal-Mart, or church, or gun store, and do that good work of convincing your fellow Americans that we should organize with the poor and listen to each other. It's not difficult at all, it's just that too few people have the courage that you have to "do the work our communities need". It's not that people could ever be opposed to unifying communities, they just need you to point the way for them. And stick to your guns: don't buy into that argument that things will get worse with Republicans. That's just fearmongering. You're better than that, so work on the community level and make this country a better place!
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:53
|
|
|
Quidam Viator posted:
If it is just fear mongering then why do you advocate voting Republican so the entire thing burns down? 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 11:16 |
|
|
Pohl posted:If it is just fear mongering then why do you advocate voting Republican so the entire thing burns down? SSSSHHHHHHHHH. I only need like 10 million more of him. You're going to ruin it if you start making him think that the country will collapse if he doesn't go out and vote for Hillary!
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:59
|
|