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Quidam Viator posted:And stick to your guns: don't buy into that argument that things will get worse with Republicans. That's just fearmongering. You're better than that, so work on the community level and make this country a better place! To reiterate my previous question to you: quote:Aren't you making a good argument against accelerationism? We get a conservative Executive and Legislative branch, and then the Executive makes sure the Judiciary conservative too, and then poo poo gets real bad, and then people realize "holy poo poo, poo poo is real bad" ... and then they can't do anything about it by that point because any court challenges will be shot down, or it'll be enshrined by law, or it'll be upheld via Executive Order, and then people will accept it as the way things have always been, and then no change happens because you just handed the keys to the nutters and they've locked the steering wheel in place.
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Apr 14, 2015 10:01
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Oh come on. The only purpose of accelerationism is to be a pointy stick, a stimulus, a goad. That's why it's not called "create-a-new-ideaism". Currently, the nation is heading toward an obvious abyss. If I just shut up and said nothing, sure, a few people like Anime Curator choose not to vote, others deliberately don't vote, or vote independent, and because of the structural advantage, Hillary Clinton wins. This is the only place where you and I disagree. You believe Hillary Clinton winning is good, because she'll be able to spend the next eight years with her veto pen, blocking GOP legislation and filling the Supreme Court with... people the GOP Senate agrees to confirm??? Meanwhile, Americans are able to continue to sit back complacently for almost another decade, split by deliberate polarization to fight with each other over the medical benefits of murdering cops' wives, lament the facility with which the Koch Brothers take over everything from university economics programs to whole states, and the terrible destruction of the environment, warmongering, and destruction of workers rights STILL HAPPENS JUST AT A SLOWER PACE, so that your average American can still be consoled by a media that presents "both sides" of these issues. You consider this a nominal outcome, a victory. You literally have no other plan; you have no coherent strategy for wresting political power out of the hands of the Tea Party and the Kochs, taking back state and local legislatures, or even beginning to address the global issues that we're getting our asses kicked on. I believe that Hillary Clinton winning is a bad thing because it allows you a modicum of comfort. It allows you to be complacent. It allows you to wipe the sweat off your brow, say "Whew! Dodged a bullet!" and go back to being inactive. I believe that your long-term strategy is SO weak, SO hollow, that all these horrible, nation-ending things are actually inevitable. You only have to lose once. So, for me the only functional question is how much irreversible destruction to the planet are we allowing every day that people remain complacent? The answer is a whole loving lot. The sooner you wake the gently caress up to the fact that there are no possible painless outcomes to waking the American people up from their torpor, you'll realize that by advocating acceleration of a THING THAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING, in broad daylight, I hope that the country experiences sufficient shock to just take one step back from the abyss and realize that they are genuinely a threat to their own continued existence. Modern right wing ideology can be pretty well characterized by the metaphor of it being a malignant cancer. It's hypertrophic, starts from the bottom up, and eventually kills the patient by replacing functional structures that served the whole body with tumors that suck up resources only for themselves. The medicines we have to kill cancer are terrible and unpleasant, but if you're going to criticize me for prescribing chemotherapy to a malignant cancer patient, chemotherapy that will make their hair fall out, make them sick and weak, and make them suffer, because the medicine is too horrible, then what you're really saying is that patient should die slowly and in agony from the cancer. I vote for chemo, every time. Let's do something radical and dangerous and take a fighter's chance, because the only other option is a slow death with no possible recovery.
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Apr 14, 2015 10:26
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Looks like Obama wasn't the only Definer of Civilization's Rules touring Panama this week.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:13
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The Gingriches look like a serial-killing couple in all their photoa.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:23
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So Conan's Cuba trip was so good he decided to do Panama next?
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Apr 14, 2015 11:39
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Quidam Viator posted:You consider this a nominal outcome, a victory. You literally have no other plan; you have no coherent strategy for wresting political power out of the hands of the Tea Party and the Kochs, taking back state and local legislatures, or even beginning to address the global issues that we're getting our asses kicked on. Quidam Viator posted:Try to go out to your local Wal-Mart, or church, or gun store, and do that good work of convincing your fellow Americans that we should organize with the poor and listen to each other. It's not difficult at all, it's just that too few people have the courage that you have to "do the work our communities need". It's not that people could ever be opposed to unifying communities, they just need you to point the way for them. I don't see the inherent contradiction in voting for the candidate that will cause a slower decline and attempting to shift the Overton window from the local level on up by organizing behind progressive candidates. Yes, you are correct that voting for Hillary is "bad" if it ends up being all a person does and in fact gets used as an excuse for never doing more, but that's a bad outcome in and of itself, and it's not mutually exclusive with the grassroots initiatives that are discussed in USPol threads as potential drivers of change.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:42
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gradenko_2000 posted:I don't see the inherent contradiction in voting for the candidate that will cause a slower decline and attempting to shift the Overton window from the local level on up by organizing behind progressive candidates. Wow, dude, your sarcasm detector must really be shot. Look at the part you bolded in your quote from me. Look at where I told him to go. I guess there's some nobility to your position, believing that your fellow Americans genuinely care about their fellow man, are persuadable by facts and reason, and that "grassroots initiatives that are discussed in USPol threads" can actually be drivers of change. It's like somehow you've been able to read years of these UsPol threads, and still believe that the Right in this country are reasonable people, persuadable by evidence, and aren't playing a scorched-earth, winner-takes-all, brutal and vicious game with the intent of utterly destroying you. The GOP has understood a way around the political system that made America function. They aren't here to debate or have their minds changed. I sent Anime Curator to "Wal-Mart, churches, and gun stores", and I seriously hope he goes, and tries to talk the people there into being considerate of poor and black people. How much evidence do you need that the Right in this country are overcome with mindless rage and fear, and that their chosen policies are deliberately hateful? How many Walkers and Brownbacks and Scotts do they have to re-elect before you realize they actually are serious about this bullshit? I've answered your question: the purpose of accelerationism is to make the inevitable collapse of this political system happen more quickly by pushing the Republicans to show us exactly what happens when you don't fail conservatism. The hope is that if the terribleness becomes bad enough fast enough, that it will be a sufficient shock for us to do something shocking and the GOP will defeat themselves through their own success. Of course it's not a sure shot; it's just a desperate, last-gasp attempt to unmake the Tea Party so we can refocus our energy on preventing human extinction before it's too late. I believe you are underestimating your political opponents by believing that they are rational actors, concerned with the national welfare, and I am trying to get you to quit that terrible habit. So, I get to ask YOU questions now: How do you uproot and remove completely the current right-wing ideology that is holding half of the nation right now? I'm talking about the 40-50% of the nation that voted twice for George W. Bush, then for McCain, then for Romney? How do you take away the political power that the Kochs have made for themselves by throwing money at everything from local school board races to the Supreme Court? How will you take back any of the gerrymandering and cancellation of protections from the Voting Rights Act that ensure Republican victories in counties and states all over the country? But most importantly, how will you attack the root of the cancer itself: the fear and greed of white, racist, classist, evangelical Americans who will do anything, say anything, kill anyone just to make sure that nobody else rises to their level of privilege? You see, all those terrible outcomes you talked about as evidence against accelerationism are already happening, and you have no strategy to stop it. I've said multiple times that I'll toxx myself the minute one of you comes up with a real answer to this question instead of dodging it by saying "grassroots conversations" will convert the whole Fox News demographic to sanity. While you putter around, the Kochs and corporations are in turbo mode, exploiting and extracting as fast as they can before everything runs out. What makes you think you have any time at all to convince people who have abandoned all reason to be reasonable and think of everyone's welfare?
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Apr 14, 2015 12:10
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Quidam Viator posted:I've answered your question: the purpose of accelerationism is to make the inevitable collapse of this political system happen more quickly by pushing the Republicans to show us exactly what happens when you don't fail conservatism. The hope is that if the terribleness becomes bad enough fast enough, that it will be a sufficient shock for us to do something shocking and the GOP will defeat themselves through their own success. Of course it's not a sure shot; it's just a desperate, last-gasp attempt to unmake the Tea Party so we can refocus our energy on preventing human extinction before it's too late. I believe you are underestimating your political opponents by believing that they are rational actors, concerned with the national welfare, and I am trying to get you to quit that terrible habit. To your question of "do you have a strategy?", I am willing to admit that I have none, as you might have expected. I was trying to clarify if you acknowledged that handing over the reins of power to conservatives, even if it caused people to realize that it's not good, might still not create a drastic change in the political climate because of all the roadblocks built into the system (on top of whatever the conservatives will pile on once they're able to legislate) to prevent drastic change. Yes, I agree that accelerationism will definitely "show us exactly what happens when you don't fail conservatism", but note the operative word, because that does not guarantee change either, unless you're also willing to include change that requires apolitical methods to enact.
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Apr 14, 2015 12:24
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gradenko_2000 posted:
Well, at least now you have understood me. Yes, I believe that it will take apolitical action to create change at this point. I believe that liberal success from within our current system has been deliberately made impossible. I believe we are at a place where, if we were honest with ourselves, we would acknowledge that we've been playing a game for 200-something years, and that except for a Civil War, the rules have basically worked, but that the GOP and their donors have figured out a way to cheat the game from within the system. No, change is not guaranteed in any situation. In fact, if we just go at our current speed or accelerate, the only certain things are: continued destruction of the Earth, continued gridlock that serves those who like the status quo, and the eventual collapse of the world economy. Deep down, I am a very committed liberal who believes in a unified human global society where the majority of our resources are focused on the welfare of all beings, the use of technology to end scarcity and hierarchy, and deliberate attempts not just to preserve, but restore the environment and the diversity of world ecosystems. This is the end I would like to see. Eleven years ago, when El Pinto Grande was mod of D&D, I wrote a long essay called "Faith, Reason, and the Millennial Party Shift" for this forum. In it, I said that the GOP had figured out how to use faith-based language and approaches to sidestep rationality, and cultivate a base that would vote for Republican politicians and policies no matter how ugly or destructive they were. I have been focused on this issue for a long time. I'm not here, writing in long form so I can just get giggles from trolling you. I have been watching the derationalization of American political discourse for decades now, and I am trying to convince you, to paraphrase Voltaire, to stop spooning medicine into a corpse; stop trying to reason with people who have abandoned all reason. If you've got a better radical tactic than practicing judo, stepping aside, and letting the GOP show themselves as monsters to the whole world, then tell me. It's the best idea I can think of, which I know isn't saying much.
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Apr 14, 2015 12:46
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Accelerationist strategy is weird. It's like, okay you plan to get enough people convinced that Republicans are the antichrist and Hillary is little better to actually start throwing elections...and you want to use that influence to elect, not real leftists...but the Tea Party.
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Apr 14, 2015 12:49
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Accelerationism is the lazy man's leftism: it eschews the hard work of organizing for the vague idea that people will politically act the right way spontaneously given a bad enough stimulus. Of course, people would, in reality, still need organization after the Republicans bring on the apocalypse, so it'd just be an unforced catastrophe because it wouldn't at all lessen the need for the hard work required to get political power.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:09
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Accelerationism is the lazy man's leftism: it eschews the hard work of organizing for the vague idea that people will politically act the right way spontaneously given a bad enough stimulus. Of course, people would, in reality, still need organization after the Republicans bring on the apocalypse, so it'd just be an unforced catastrophe because it wouldn't at all lessen the need for the hard work required to get political power. I deny your premise that it's lazy. Instead, I think you are deceived about the nature of the opponent and their success at making their base immune to organization, reason, and any sort of hard work on your part. They do not want to compromise, they certainly don't intend to change their minds. What are you going to change their minds with, a brick? Or are you still really rolling out this idea that the 40% of America that has voted GOP this past few decades are just reasonable people like us who engage in responsible discussion, and only watch Fox News because it's the only thing on? The only unforced catastrophe is the one we're allowing to happen right now.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:15
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I'm sure educating people and organizing them will be so much easier once they're working their hands to the bone day and night just to feed their families and keep the lights on, while the fascists are telling them everything is the fault of the blacks and the mexicans and the gays, and the Republicans only let themselves get stabbed in the back because they were too weak to do what really needed to be done.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:16
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Quote of the morning, “I can’t believe I missed ‘Game of Thrones’ for this.” ~ a Democrat who was on the Hillary campaign conference call, 9:30pm Sunday.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:27
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VitalSigns posted:I'm sure educating people and organizing them will be so much easier once they're working their hands to the bone day and night just to feed their families and keep the lights on, while the fascists are telling them everything is the fault of the blacks and the mexicans and the gays, and the Republicans only let themselves get stabbed in the back because they were too weak to do what really needed to be done. Because you're doing SUCH a great job of it right now. The fascists are ALREADY telling everyone that everything's the fault of the blacks and the mexicans and the gays. Your reply is one of the major reasons I write as I do; you are deluded into thinking that this stuff isn't already happening. You're already in a terrible, checkmated position if your idea is to organize people democratically into liberal structures. I don't need to accelerate because poo poo is already accelerating; I'm just here to practice this message, to see if I can make sense to a collection of people I've been writing to for over a decade, that your opponents have unbound themselves from the rules of this constitutional game, and it's time to do something drastic and unexpected. Look, you have to make a realistic assessment of your opponents. How is it that they have taken both houses of Congress, 38 governorships, 60% of state legislatures, etc? Has it been through organizing, or reasonable arguments, or concern for the public welfare? How are THEY playing the game? From my position, they are winning by appeals to emotions of fear and hate, by purchasing influence and legislation, and by being in open contempt of the government of the nation, and in creating a base that will cheer all these things on because they have been taught to love the taste of liberal blood. You are NOT winning within this system. You and your ideas are losing.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:29
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Joementum posted:Quote of the morning, “I can’t believe I missed ‘Game of Thrones’ for this.” ~ a Democrat who was on the Hillary campaign conference call, 9:30pm Sunday. That's my entire feeling towards Hillary's campaign, as well. Like jesus loving christ people, Sunday evenings are the one time for down-time quit being out of touch with the needs of America's campaign human infrastructure.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:33
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Quidam Viator posted:Well, at least now you have understood me. Yes, I believe that it will take apolitical action to create change at this point. I believe that liberal success from within our current system has been deliberately made impossible. I believe we are at a place where, if we were honest with ourselves, we would acknowledge that we've been playing a game for 200-something years, and that except for a Civil War, the rules have basically worked, but that the GOP and their donors have figured out a way to cheat the game from within the system. While I understand where you're coming from, I'm afraid I can't agree with sacrificing the health and welfare of everyone that will be directly affected by a (supposedly short-term) conservative victory, plus the health and welfare of everyone that will suffer from what I believe you're saying would be a resultant revolution. Even if the alternative is the destruction of humanity over an even longer term (and even if, as I said, I cannot offer an alternative strategy). Thank you though for answering frankly. Quidam Viator posted:Or are you still really rolling out this idea that the 40% of America that has voted GOP this past few decades are just reasonable people like us who engage in responsible discussion, and only watch Fox News because it's the only thing on? To take another tack on this: as far as I understand it, it's not that 40% of America is "irrationally conservative", just 40% of people that vote. Do we have any studies or numbers to indicate that we wouldn't necessarily need to teach people liberal/socialist values, and instead we just need to empower them enough that they can get to the polls?
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Apr 14, 2015 13:33
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Anime Curator posted:I just really dont buy into this argument that things will get worse with republicans and we should vote for hillary. why are people so afraid to do the work our communities need? like organizing locally? organizing with the poor? listening and learning from peoples stories? doing more community empowerment? how are these things more difficult than dealing with the repercussions of being further recognized and included into a liberal state Many of us are doing as much as we can of those things, and voting for Hilary in the mean time because the effects of doing that haven't given the left wing of the dems sufficient clout to pull things their direction yet.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:33
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Quidam Viator posted:Because you're doing SUCH a great job of it right now. The fascists are ALREADY telling everyone that everything's the fault of the blacks and the mexicans and the gays. Your reply is one of the major reasons I write as I do; you are deluded into thinking that this stuff isn't already happening. You're already in a terrible, checkmated position if your idea is to organize people democratically into liberal structures. I don't need to accelerate because poo poo is already accelerating; I'm just here to practice this message, to see if I can make sense to a collection of people I've been writing to for over a decade, that your opponents have unbound themselves from the rules of this constitutional game, and it's time to do something drastic and unexpected. It certainly is organizing: they're getting petiole to the polls.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:35
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Markup on the Iran agreement bill in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee will be at 2:15 today. Senator Corker says they have a bipartisan agreement on moving the bill.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:40
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Joementum posted:Markup on the Iran agreement bill in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee will be at 2:15 today. Senator Corker says they have a bipartisan agreement on moving the bill. Can't wait to see how they muck it up.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:42
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People actually read all those insane words QV posts? Iv not been able to make it through a single one of his posts because they are so densely written.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:46
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Venom Snake posted:People actually read all those insane words QV posts? Iv not been able to make it through a single one of his posts because they are so densely written. Here is a good summary: "I'm cool with the potential deaths of billions in WWIII because things are not going my way."
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Apr 14, 2015 13:53
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didn't qv say to probate him if he ever seriousposted in here again?
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Apr 14, 2015 13:53
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TheQat posted:didn't qv say to probate him if he ever seriousposted in here again? No, I left last time when someone asked me to, out of courtesy. I did formally post a toxx if anyone can convince me of a better way to undo the total dominance of the American Right in a better way than accelerationism, but nobody's taken me up on that one. Would you like me to leave again?
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Apr 14, 2015 13:57
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But the outcome of getting banned or not personally affects you, so ethically you need to recuse yourself from judging whether good enough arguments have been presented to convince you. I'm willing to accept the responsibility of judging so let it devolve upon me.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:02
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Apr 14, 2015 14:04
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Billo looks high as gently caress.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:07
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VitalSigns posted:I'm sure educating people and organizing them will be so much easier once they're working their hands to the bone day and night just to feed their families and keep the lights on, while the fascists are telling them everything is the fault of the blacks and the mexicans and the gays, and the Republicans only let themselves get stabbed in the back because they were too weak to do what really needed to be done. I don't know about you but I do my best planning when I'm rotting in a ditch somewhere on account of being unable to afford health insurance.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:08
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Welp, wrap it up, I guess. We had a good run, guys. Seven million years is nothing to sneeze at.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:08
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Quidam Viator posted:No, I left last time when someone asked me to, out of courtesy. I did formally post a toxx if anyone can convince me of a better way to undo the total dominance of the American Right in a better way than accelerationism, but nobody's taken me up on that one. Give money to Democrats, QV. I bet you lack the courage to, you don't even belong to a pater familias. Come on QV, grow some balls and become a stakeholder in the Democratic processes of this nation.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:10
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Oh please we have an escape plan. "White man season!" "Minority season!" "White man season!" "Minority season!" "White man season!" "White man season!" "MINORITY SEASON FIRE!"
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Apr 14, 2015 14:11
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It's weird that Bill O'Reilly and I share the same fantasies about a Hillary Presidency 
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Apr 14, 2015 14:12
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My Imaginary GF posted:Give money to Democrats, QV. I bet you lack the courage to, you don't even belong to a pater familias. Come on QV, grow some balls and become a stakeholder in the Democratic processes of this nation. Oh come now, back when I had money, I contributed a few hundred dollars to the 2008 Obama campaign. I knocked doors, ran meetings, phonebanked, distributed yard signs. Was real excited to do more OFA events after he was elected, but WELP... No, it looks like you're the only worthless cipher here, you copypasta-posting douchecanoe.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:14
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Says a white guy. On the most watched cable news network. In primetime.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:14
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Quidam Viator posted:Oh come now, back when I had money, I contributed a few hundred dollars to the 2008 Obama campaign. I knocked doors, ran meetings, phonebanked, distributed yard signs. Was real excited to do more OFA events after he was elected, but WELP... There is no reason to be upset.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:49
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Quidam Viator posted:I did formally post a toxx if anyone can convince me of a better way to undo the total dominance of the American Right in a better way than accelerationism, With dogs, and the knife.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:52
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Due to what?! 
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Apr 14, 2015 14:56
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Quidam Viator posted:douchecanoe. This seems wildy impractical, the concave surface where you sit would just encourage liquids to spray every witch way, diluting the entire effect of the concentrated stream of cleanliness. I mean, its not like you're going to pack little people into your douche, why would you make this design change? Or to the opposite, why would you make an entire canoe out of a douche, nothing about the design is even the slightest bit seaworthy, we have plenty of reliable seaworthy designs already. Maybe like.. a douche pontoon? But Canoe? Seriously now, this is just horrible planning.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:57
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theshim posted:Due to what?! Mars Squid.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:57
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