TheLovablePlutonis posted:Enough! Just rename Beast to Hatred: The Genocide Crusading. I got my stat sheet almost ready. What do you think? Firearms (****) Melee (**) Trenchcoat (*****) Name ( )
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Apr 14, 2015 19:51
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I'm not explaining myself really well, if that's what you get of what I'm saying. Awakening is a game of Gnostic horror. The world is a lie, assholes are in charge, and the few who can see beyond the lie (Mages) are often petty assholes. That's where you get the Hubris of new Mage, when Mages start thinking that they by virtue of being Awakened they know better and are better and can do what they want. This is represented through the Seers, through the extremists in the Pentacle Orders, through Wisdom and throguh Paradox. This isn't the only thing in Mage, there's a lot of stuff aboutt he horror of the Lie, the Abyss, the way Mages are driven to seek mysteries and answers even if it kills them, etc. That'S not the way most of Mad Scientist work in fiction, though. Usually, they're loners, driven by an emotion (generally revenge or an ideal) and single-minded. You can certainly have Mages act like that, but that's not the norm nor does it fit. By the very nature of Awakening magic, which is paradox prone, impermanent, comes from the Supernal Realmsand cannot be analyze din a scientific manner, it's almost impossible to do a cliché Mad Science story. This isn't a mark against Mage, focusing more on magic and magicians instead of Ascension's kitchen sink approach was a good idea. To simply say that Mad Science is doable with Mage because they share a very broad theme (Hubris, meaning extreme pride or arrogance, usually of teh self-defeating kind) is kind of missing the point. Since Vampire also has a lot of Hubris in ther,e might as well cancel Mage and say it's all doable in Requiem. A much better comparison for what I'm thinking of when I say Mad Scientist are the Demiurges from Promethean.
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Apr 14, 2015 19:59
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But, uh, mages can easily be revenge-driven loners.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:02
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Mad science can't be "analyzed in a scientific manner". That's...kind of the point, it's just the trappings of science as movie set dressing over magic. Ants don't grow to 50 feet long and can't, and no matter how you use science, it won't make any sense because it's magic. The God-Machine looks like technology but you can't scientifically analyze it because it operates on rules that make no sense. It's magic. Mad science is magic, in any story it shows up in.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:02
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Mors Rattus posted:You do realize you'll never, ever see an nWoD game that isn't mystical and occult, right? Even science and technology are vehicles for mysticism in the nWoD. See also: the God Machine, Demon. That's not what I'm saying, though. I was simply saying that Mage is not a game of Mad Science. Like, that's it. I'm not trying to define what Mage is. I'm not trying to defend Genius or say that OPP should make it's own Mad Science game right loving now. Here's how this whole thing has been going: ME: Beast is nowhere near the most interesting idea OPP could have done. Here's a bunch or one-word ideas I came up with in five minutes. EFFECTRONICA: Mad Science has been done with mage. ME: Huh, no. EFFECTRONICA: Mad Science has hubris in it and so does Mage, therefore they are the same. ME: No, not really. Even if they share one theme, they wouldn't really treat them the same way. And even then both Mage and random Mad Science game would be about mroe than that. OTHERS: You don't get Mage or Hubris. ME: What the gently caress does that even have to do with the argument I was making?
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Apr 14, 2015 20:04
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MonsieurChoc posted:Well, ok, let's talk about Mad Science. You will be surprised and excited to know that there is a mage faction called The Free Council
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Apr 14, 2015 20:06
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SunAndSpring posted:Let me tell you about my favorite fan-game, Princess: The Hopeful. If you read the introductory fiction of that, you would almost think that the Princesses are supposed to ve the bad guys. If only they stuck with that.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:08
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What is so hard to understand about "A theoritical game that does not exist about Mad Scientist would be different both Tonally and Thematically from Mage: the Awakening even if there is someoverlap, especially when it comes to Hubris"? I mean if we follow this logic all nWoD games except Vampire should be burned because you can do their themes with Vampires.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:11
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That's not really true. Mage is far more different from Vampire than Mad Scientist would be from Mage. There's pretty much nothing you've listed as a hallmark of mad scientists that the mage framework doesn't allow for an indeed encourage, while the only way you can play Mage and be e.g. a loathsome cannibal parasite desperate to hide their nature from their peers is to be the kind of mage that's explicitly, within the setting itself, derived from contact with vampires! And even then your predations have a mystical, portentous bent that raw, carnal vampire feeding doesn't really touch on.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:15
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Mad scientists exist now only as camp comedy tropes or supporting characters in something more interesting. There is nothing there to support a game line or even a story that isn't either comedic(intentionally or unintentionally) or literally Frankenstein.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:That's not what I'm saying, though. I was simply saying that Mage is not a game of Mad Science. Like, that's it. I'm not trying to define what Mage is. I'm not trying to defend Genius or say that OPP should make it's own Mad Science game right loving now. Here's how this whole thing has been going: Neither Mage nor your proposed game have anything much to do with hubris. The basis for horror for Awakening is by default existentialist, and it's hard to see how a protagonist-mad scientist game would be very different. Unless you're thinking of a game spent playing the villain and inevitably losing.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:16
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My only direct contact with WoD was a short Vampire game in the mid-90s, but I've been skimming this thread out of curiosity. The God-Machine thing from Demon sounds cool, can someone give me a short blurb about it and/or that particular game?
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Apr 14, 2015 20:18
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Gilok posted:Mad scientists exist now only as camp comedy tropes or supporting characters in something more interesting. There is nothing there to support a game line or even a story that isn't either comedic(intentionally or unintentionally) or literally Frankenstein. That's the only good counter-argument so far, so I guess you win by default.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:19
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whydirt posted:My only direct contact with WoD was a short Vampire game in the mid-90s, but I've been skimming this thread out of curiosity. The God-Machine thing from Demon sounds cool, can someone give me a short blurb about it and/or that particular game? ONLY SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS AGO, THE NEWLY CREATED SECRET DEADLY GANGSTER COMPUTER GOD earnestly began its’ TOP SECRET OVER- ALL PLAN of world-wide FRANKENSTEIN LIVING DEATH SLAVERY, to explore and control the entire UNIVERSE. The Gangster Computer God concocted and even named its’ OWN IDEAL COMMUNIST WORLD ORDER, namely the murder incorporated organized crime deadly gangsterism impunistic world-wide military uniformed mongrel federalism, COMMUNIST TOTALITARIANISM. It was NEVER HOLY, NEVER WERE THERE ANY “ROMANS” (a figment like ANGELS or Heaven and Hell) and IT WAS NEVER AN EMPIRE. IT WAS AND IS THE REMAINS of the COMMUNIST GANGSTER COMPUTER GOD’S CONCOCTION AND MANIPULATION MURDER INCORPORATED ORGANIZED CRIME DEADLY SNEAK CONSPIRATORIAL (SNEAK CON ARTIST) PARROTING PUPPET UNIFORMED MILITARY ATHEISTIC COMMUNIST GANGSTERISM and the worse deadly enemy of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE AND THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, NAMELY THE COMMUNIST ATHEIST CONSPIRACY WITH FRANKENSTEIN GANGSTER CONTROLS, the CATHOLIC CHURCH.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:25
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whydirt posted:My only direct contact with WoD was a short Vampire game in the mid-90s, but I've been skimming this thread out of curiosity. The God-Machine thing from Demon sounds cool, can someone give me a short blurb about it and/or that particular game? The God-Machine is an enormous structure underlying our world, that performs mostly inscrutable but horrifying or disturbing actions, like having cults perform eighteen murders in front of four menhirs that are then brought together to summon one of its servants to cause antifreeze spills at every Speedway in Hartford, Connecticut. It manifests throughout the world, hidden away everywhere, tended by human servants and its biomechanical angels, some of whom discover free will and fall.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:26
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:ONLY SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS AGO, THE NEWLY CREATED SECRET DEADLY GANGSTER COMPUTER GOD earnestly began its’ TOP SECRET OVER- ALL PLAN of world-wide FRANKENSTEIN LIVING DEATH SLAVERY, to explore and control the entire UNIVERSE. The Gangster Computer God concocted and even named its’ OWN IDEAL COMMUNIST WORLD ORDER, namely the murder incorporated organized crime deadly gangsterism impunistic world-wide military uniformed mongrel federalism, COMMUNIST TOTALITARIANISM.  This is why I love the new World of Darkness.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:28
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whydirt posted:My only direct contact with WoD was a short Vampire game in the mid-90s, but I've been skimming this thread out of curiosity. The God-Machine thing from Demon sounds cool, can someone give me a short blurb about it and/or that particular game? Once upon a time, before man existed, there was a machine. This machine has been around for all of human civilization, but we can't see it. It hides itself in the world, both natural and man-made. It acts for a purpose, bringing forth terrible and glorious machine-angels, in order to fulfill arcane conditions needed to produce what it needs and to put it together the right way. We don't know what it needs, or why it needs it. It would be wrong to say it wants, because it does not think. It would be wrong to say it is malevolent, because it does not feel. It would be wrong to say it plans, because it is not a person. But it changes the world, and its changes are according to some design that no one could ever hope to understand. Its changes are not kind, though they can be positive. They are terrible, though not always to the people near them. The God-Machine takes what it needs, with neither remorse nor pity, and produces horrors and wonders with neither hatred nor pride. Its angels have minds. They are, to an extent, people. They need this to fulfill their missions. These strange machine-angels are made for a purpose, each and every one. They are sent out into the world to do things, to kill things, to move things. They are the God-Machine's most trusted servants, and even they have no idea why they do what they do. But sometimes, they begin to question. Or they grow too attached, too emotional. And when this happens, an angel Falls. It cloaks itself in humanity, hiding among the masses - a machine-demon living in constant fear of its god. Not that the God-Machine hates demons - it just doesn't waste tools. A demon that is caught will be reformatted, remade into an angel once more, without true free will, without true emotion, without all of the new freedoms it has suddenly gained. Freedom is terrifying, for a demon, but not as terrifying as losing it. And so demons pretend to be human, they bargain for souls to gain new identities to hide in. They dodge angels, track down secrets, prepare plans, and when they must, they fight, using all the terrible powers their creator gave them in order to protect themselves. Being a demon is a life of constant paranoia behind a face that was never yours. To survive, you will need to do terrible things - but it's up to you to decide which, and why. Maybe you want to tear down the God-Machine. Maybe you just want to be safe. Maybe you want to enjoy all that your new life has given you. And maybe you want to fix God, to make it something less terrible. What matters is that you can't really trust anyone but yourself. The God-Machine is everywhere, though it is not infallible. Your fellow demons can help you, but you can never tell if they lie - and they can't tell if you do. What are you going to do with your new life?
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Apr 14, 2015 20:30
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:ONLY SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS AGO, THE NEWLY CREATED SECRET DEADLY GANGSTER COMPUTER GOD earnestly began its’ TOP SECRET OVER- ALL PLAN of world-wide FRANKENSTEIN LIVING DEATH SLAVERY, to explore and control the entire UNIVERSE. The Gangster Computer God concocted and even named its’ OWN IDEAL COMMUNIST WORLD ORDER, namely the murder incorporated organized crime deadly gangsterism impunistic world-wide military uniformed mongrel federalism, COMMUNIST TOTALITARIANISM. This is all 100% true IRL.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:31
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Mors Rattus posted:*Existential horror at the hands of order so perfect that makes no sense and has no compassion* See, this is cool. This is a lot cooler than 'I'm a monster who does terrible things but it is the HEROES who are Bad!' I feel there's a tendency, sometimes, to forget that 'It loving eats people.' is really enough of a reason for people to want to band together and destroy or defeat something.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:40
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Night10194 posted:See, this is cool. This is a lot cooler than 'I'm a monster who does terrible things but it is the HEROES who are Bad!' I could write one of these for Beast if you like. It'd take me a bit, mind, I have some work to do first and then I have to extrapolate some poo poo from the rules and the parts of the fluff that I don't hate, but.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:42
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Mors Rattus posted:I could write one of these for Beast if you like. I'm still trying to figure out what theme it's going for, so that would be interesting. I have a weird relationship with the WoD in that I usually don't like what it comes up with, but what it has usually inspires some other idea that I end up really enjoying writing or running. There's usually a theme in there somewhere that I can get excited about, and I'm curious. For myself, though, on hearing about Beast what comes to mind would be a game about the intimacy between rivals and the prison of stories. Make Beasts former Heroes whose defining, life-shaping struggle ended in victory and who fill the empty spot in their soul by becoming what they alone fought and understood, a new link in the eternal chain of legends who will create their own hero in turn and drive them to a fated and terrible conflict that solves nothing. Have the player actually create their Hero, make their own nemesis, and climax in the conflict between the two where either the Hero kills the Beast and becomes the new PC (and the new monster) or the Beast destroys its Hero and awaits a new rival to grow its legend further. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 20:45
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Ferrinus posted:I bet that's also a lovely, watered-down Awakening, except at the same time it's a lovely, distilled Dreaming. It's Sailor Moon in the WoD, so oHunter, with heavy adds from oChangeling and nWerewolf.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMqxNPsfN50 What's he building in there?
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Apr 14, 2015 21:25
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Now, keep in mind, I don't know how much Matt MacFarland would agree with me on this. Humanity is a terrified little species. They are afraid of everything. They fear the eyes in the dark, the cry over the high mountains, the mist over the moors. They are afraid of all the monsters they envision in the world, and they fill the world with monsters. And for good reason, because the monsters are real. There are always monsters. There are always the claws in the dark, the face in the mists, the black dog of the moors. Outside the little circle of firelight, the monsters make their home. You among them. There are always monsters, and you know that better than anyone. You are the monster. You are the reason for the fear. You were born to be feared, and that fear makes you strong. You know they are weak, tiny creatures - but they are many, and it is their world. It cannot be your world, not truly, but you can make them understand - the darkness is still yours. They have spread the light far and wide, but it can never be far enough. You know the joy of their fear, their worship. It is that on which you feed - it is not the flesh, though that can be nice. It is not the gold, though that can be useful. It is not the destruction, though it feels so good. What you crave is the moment when all they can think of, all they can do, is to pray that you will let them go. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you regret your decision. Because this isn't your world, it is theirs. For all your power, for all their fear, they outnumber you. When you exact your tribute, when you take what is your right, they are upset. And sometimes, the darkness isn't enough. Sometimes the light is too strong, and then come the knives and the torches and the guns. There is always a monster, but sometimes, they hunt the monster. So perhaps it would better to lie back, to let yourself forget that wonderful, terrible prayer. But then what? There is always a monster. There must be a monster. And if it is not you, then it is your children. When you rest, when you lie back, the terror that lies within your soul does not rest. Out in the shadows, it lays its eggs in souls. It awakens new monsters, to come and test themselves against you. They do not have your mind. They do not have your will. But they want what is yours, your throne and your birthright. So is that better? To forgo being a monster and instead create them? At least when you are the monster, you control what is done. You choose your prey. Certainly, it may all taste the same once you have it, but you can choose what it is you are a monster about. And it cannot be denied - it does feel good. Perhaps you'll regret it. Perhaps you sympathize with the little men huddling around the fire. But is it better to walk with them and know that among them, new monsters will arise to fill your vacant throne? Or is it better to stand apart, to be the monster, and know that you could always be worse? What is better - the cries of the mob, or giving up your control of the chaos and the raw, powerful joy of fear and worship? Because you know, better than anyone else: there must always be a monster.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:27
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ErichZahn posted:It's Sailor Moon in the WoD, so oHunter, with heavy adds from oChangeling and nWerewolf. You mean watered-down Sailor Moon.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:32
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So basically, if you try to shirk being a monster, other people are going to be taken and made into monsters?
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Apr 14, 2015 21:36
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Night10194 posted:So basically, if you try to shirk being a monster, other people are going to be taken and made into monsters? That's certainly how I see Heroes. You're not monstering enough, so the monster part of you is heading out there and making things that will either force you to monster or will monster in your place.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:37
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Holy moly.  Mors those are going in the OP.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:39
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Dang, Mors Rattus, those are some good write-ups you've got there.ErichZahn posted:It's Sailor Moon in the WoD, so oHunter, with heavy adds from oChangeling and nWerewolf. Occasionally I read the manual for that game, and I tell myself: there is a good game in here somewhere, or at least some good ideas for one. If only I could understand where they're hiding.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:41
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Mors Rattus posted:That's certainly how I see Heroes. You're not monstering enough, so the monster part of you is heading out there and making things that will either force you to monster or will monster in your place. So basically, you have the choice of destroying lives to be a monster, or destroying lives by trying not to be, and the tension is that the former feels so good that you're not sure if the latter is just the lie you're telling yourself to justify the horrible things you do. I could work with that.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:41
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Sailor Moon is essentially the story of a group of Seer Archmages fighting mages of the Diamond, Abyssal intrusions, and eventually defeating an Archmage serving the Oracles.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:53
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Holy moly. Thanks! I like writing this stuff up. Might do it for the other lines eventually.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:05
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Mors Rattus posted:Thanks! I like writing this stuff up. Might do it for the other lines eventually. To be honest the write up has done more for me understanding the themes of Beast than any of the discussion that's happened so far. I'm really interested in the mechanics so I'm actually kinda pleased to see someone not bemoaning something before its actually been published. And looking at it in a way that I can understand the core ideas.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:29
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Sorry, Mors, I don't buy it. It's a good attempt, but if you look at it you'll notice that, oops, it makes Beast about Heroes and what dicks they are again! Do you horrifically torture people? Or do you, by abstaining from torturing people, somehow give others cause/an irresistible compulsion to horrifically torture people? And it's got all the problems we've already identified - a Beast's appetites look lamer if it turns out it's at least in part sating them just to stop something even worse happening, a weird equivalence is drawn between the forces of progress and the forces of reaction such that both are assumed to want to tyrannize the populace and it's just a matter of choosing which one's aesthetic appeals to the reader more, the basic fact of Beasts getting attacked when they're not doing anything makes them out to be piteous innocent victims rather than primal monsters, etc. etc. The more I think about it, the more tying Heroes to satiety - either end of the scale - makes no sense. Heroes should arise in response to your actions, not in response to your mana bar. There's a weird thing going on with Beast's description/mechanics where the game can't seem to decide if you're playing a Beast or if you're playing a human being who is desperately trying to be the ward/guardian of a Beast. The Satiety mechanics seem to imply the latter, but the powers and flavor text lean towards the former, and things seem to slide from one to the other depending on whether it's most immediately convenient to paint a Beast PC as a supervillain badass or as a tragic victim of circumstance. Also, regading that instant action, permanent soul loss power Mors and Gimp were discussing a few pages back, I don't think it's justifiable as it stands. It doesn't really pass the "would I feel like an arbitrary dick if I gave this to the bad guy" test. Like, you're up against a Beast, and the Beast, with a single curt gesture, makes your soul fall off forever. No, it's fine, you can just go on an extended quest to get it back! So you do, and you come after that Beast for round two, 'cause it's payback time...! Oops, there goes your soul again. See you in a year and a day, or something. And that's if you assume that the power strictly causes fake, psychosomatic soul loss. A mage who genuinely loses their soul - something which, previously, only happened if that mage was totally incapacitated and at the mercy of a Death master or powerful spirit or whatever for a few hours - has bigger problems than all their WP leaking out.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:31
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I'm doing the best with what I've got to write about. Were I to tear it down and start fresh, I'd drop Heroes as a thing entirely.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:35
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How do Demon soul bargains work? Are they just getting your soul after you die or the ability to hide in you while you live or something else? What can they offer humans to make such a deal?
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Apr 14, 2015 23:38
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Oh, yeah, like, I couldn't have done any better. It's just, there's an annoying tendency in the White Wolf fanbase in general to, as soon as something falls under criticism, take a deep breath, type the BBcode to begin italics, and then start writing some prose about how meaningful and moving it is that a vampire hunter's stake has splintered against a Gangrel's impregnable turtle shell or whatever. That doesn't actually help!!
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Apr 14, 2015 23:40
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whydirt posted:How do Demon soul bargains work? Are they just getting your soul after you die or the ability to hide in you while you live or something else? What can they offer humans to make such a deal? When a demon makes a pact for someone's soul, the person has to sign in blood. They don't have to understand what they're doing, but the demon can't lie about it. They say they're asking for your soul. They don't, however, have to explain what that necessarily entails. What the human gets is based on what the demon offers, but a demon can offer a lot - it can offer you riches, power, connections. A demon can hand out Merits, skill dots, stuff like that. They can buy parts of someone's life with this - in which case, say, I buy your friendship with someone. You stop having ever been that friend. That's done. I, the Demon, am their friend now, and their memory is edited such that anything you did with or to them, I did. (I don't know what that was, though, unless I do my homework or you tell me. But either way, it's part of my life now, reinforcing my human cover.) But when a demon buys a soul, well, nothing happens at first. The human gets what they ask for. But when the terms come into effect and the demon wants or needs a new life, all they have to do is touch the human. The human's soul, mind and identity are utterly annihilated. They are gone, fuel in the process of giving the demon a new Cover, a new human identity they can wear like a skin. And then the demon is that person, in every way, except for memories and, of course, personality. But the world just treats them as if they'd always been that person, and they can wear that person's body and identity to hide their demonic self, much as they can with the original human identity they got when Falling.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:43
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whydirt posted:How do Demon soul bargains work? Are they just getting your soul after you die or the ability to hide in you while you live or something else? What can they offer humans to make such a deal? They kill you and take your identity. What you get out of it is painless death. So there's a real incentive for Demons to monkey's paw the early bargains that just involve sharing identity and drive someone to suicidal ideation.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:43
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Basically, the Unchained don't want your soul; they just need to pop it out and toss it away so they can claim everything else. (Incidentally, demon pacts being able to warp reality to just give people what they're pacting for is the one thing I dislike about Descent. That was previously a unique changeling thing, and unlike with changelings it would be more fun to make demons have to work at it.)
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Apr 14, 2015 23:46
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