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100 Years Ago Just guess what the verdict is from British and French intelligence on the possibility of a gas attack at Ypres. Go on, guess. You'll never guess. It's a good excuse to make a few points about gas. There's heavy fighting at the Battle of Shaiba, any possibility of a breakthrough at the Battle of Woevre is given up, and the Allied Brewery Traders (not the Brewers) takes out an advert using the same font as is used for War Office recruiting-adverts to protest against the recent flood of enthusiasm for temperance.
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Apr 14, 2015 09:31
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EDIT: Fixed now
Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 09:33
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Kanine posted:what are some of your favorite I always liked Rudolfo Hernandez playing chicken with death and winning. To be perfectly clear: Dudes unit was spammed with korean artillery, decided to hang back and shoot the attackers while his friends retreated, his rifle broke, and so he bayonet charged the enemy. Somehow, he killed 6 people with his knife (and fists, as he was disarmed mid-murder-tornado), before going down. In spite of being cut in the face, shot and hit multiple times by shrapnel, he survived the war and died of old age. Also, anything to do with gurkhas  I literally just picked a random Gurkha VC recipient, and this is what it came up with: quote:On 5 March 1945 at Snowdon-East, near Tamandu, Burma (now Myanmar), Gurung and his unit were approaching Snowdon-East. His company became pinned down by an enemy sniper and were suffering casualties. As the sniper was inflicting casualties on the section, Rifleman Bhanbhagta Gurung, being unable to fire from the lying position, stood up fully exposed to the heavy fire and calmly killed the enemy sniper with his rifle, thus saving his section from suffering further casualties. Tias fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 10:37
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HEY GAL posted:So like last year someone asked how old the practice of representing units as squares on a map was, and I said that my dudes do it, and that I had seen sketches made either at the time or shortly beforehand as a memory aid, but that I couldn't find them. I finally found them:
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Apr 14, 2015 10:47
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Tevery Best posted:How do you mean "a battle that didn't end up happening"? Was it that the plan was prepared well in advance and just never ended up getting used, or that the two armies had already met, but one of them decided to bail just before the fight?
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Apr 14, 2015 10:48
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Why? To practice? Given how erratic unit movements and logistics in 30YW seem to be, it doesn't really look like you can rely all that much on a given unit being there when you need it.
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Apr 14, 2015 10:58
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In tawdry military commercialism chat, Australian supermarket chain Woolworths are trying to drum up ANZAC day sales with a 
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Apr 14, 2015 11:35
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Tevery Best posted:Why? To practice? Given how erratic unit movements and logistics in 30YW seem to be, it doesn't really look like you can rely all that much on a given unit being there when you need it. I know their private lives are chaotic but these guys are professional soldiers, and knowing where you need to be when in contact with the enemy is essential, the officers have square root tables carved on their pike shafts so they can get poo poo organised quicker.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:52
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Rabhadh posted:I know their private lives are chaotic but these guys are professional soldiers, and knowing where you need to be when in contact with the enemy is essential, the officers have square root tables carved on their pike shafts so they can get poo poo organised quicker. And even if the specific people you've labeled don't all show (which happened at Luetzen; Pappenheim's people were at Halle at the time since I think it's common to disperse your army when you travel, Pappenheim learned that poo poo was going down at midnight, left Halle by two in the morning, and arrived on the field at twelve noon, just in time to get killed), someone will. The Imperial deployment at Luetzen looked almost identical in form to that sketch, just the individual regiments were different. Edit: Speaking of kings of Sweden who get shot in the head: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-blazing-career-and-mysterious-death-of-the-swedish-meteor-39695356/?no-ist The button story is a little too pat, but it's a good story...and we get a look at another wizard military leader, this time one who's also capable of protecting his army for a while. Now I may be wrong, but don't the wounds look like they were made at close range? Those fractures around the bullet holes look like they were made by expanding gas, if I remember that one forensic pathology class I took forever ago. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 12:30
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HEY GAL posted:Those fractures around the bullet holes look like they were made by expanding gas, if I remember that one forensic pathology class I took forever ago. Expanding gas from what exactly? The gas in the barrel escaping? Cause that would mean the firearm had to be insanely close to his head.
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Apr 14, 2015 12:48
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Expanding gas from what exactly? The gas in the barrel escaping? Cause that would mean the firearm had to be insanely close to his head.
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Apr 14, 2015 12:49
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If you shoot something pointblank, it will leave burn marks and residue of the powder on the thing that you shot?
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Apr 14, 2015 13:04
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JaucheCharly posted:If you shoot something pointblank, it will leave burn marks and residue of the powder on the thing that you shot?
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Apr 14, 2015 13:05
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You can make out something like hematomes on mummies without much equipment and powder burns aren't that subtle. If the shooter stood a meter away or so, the whole side of the head where the entry wound is would show burn marks, sprayed all over like black dots. If the gun was set directly to the skull, you'd see the area around the entry would be completely charred, and it leaves a characteristic ring around the wound. You'd have to try very hard not to spot something like that.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:17
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HEY GAL posted:Right, and ever since he died, people have been wondering whether or not it was murder. None of the contemporary eyewitness accounts mention someone walking up to him and pulling the trigger, though. The speculation has always been that "lone gunman" shot him from a greater distance, which probably wouldn't have left powder burns on him.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:28
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Bacarruda posted:None of the contemporary eyewitness accounts mention someone walking up to him and pulling the trigger, though. The speculation has always been that "lone gunman" shot him from a greater distance, which probably wouldn't have left powder burns on him. Seems like a button-bullet would have pretty terrible ballistics.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:23
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HEY GAL posted:So like last year someone asked how old the practice of representing units as squares on a map was, and I said that my dudes do it, and that I had seen sketches made either at the time or shortly beforehand as a memory aid, but that I couldn't find them. I finally found them: This may just be from playing Pike&Shot but why do they like to arrange their units in a checkerboard fashion?
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Apr 14, 2015 14:44
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StashAugustine posted:This may just be from playing Pike&Shot but why do they like to arrange their units in a checkerboard fashion? HEY GAL can confirm, but I think it's due to: 1. Providing space for musketeers to retreat into. 2. Allowing units to rotate in/out of combat when they were exhausted or being pushed back.
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Apr 14, 2015 15:25
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sullat posted:Seems like a button-bullet would have pretty terrible ballistics. Smoothbore barrel don't care. He just wanna shoot.
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Apr 14, 2015 15:37
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Someone at the It's a pity none of his books about the 30YW and the Swedish great power era have been translated. Same thing with his essay collections, there's a ton of interesting stuff in there that hasn't been translated either. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 17:34
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StashAugustine posted:This may just be from playing Pike&Shot but why do they like to arrange their units in a checkerboard fashion? During this era, armies were often led by bishops.
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Apr 14, 2015 18:16
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Nenonen posted:During this era, armies were often led by bishops. 
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Apr 14, 2015 18:26
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I'd bet that they did it, because :Romans:
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Apr 14, 2015 18:26
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I always wonder how these manipular formations could have been effective in practice. The idea of cycling in fresh troops sounds good, but you are banking a lot on your ability to withdraw in an orderly fashion in the middle of a melee.... What if the enemy doesn't cooperate?
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Apr 14, 2015 18:35
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Fangz posted:I always wonder how these manipular formations could have been effective in practice. The idea of cycling in fresh troops sounds good, but you are banking a lot on your ability to withdraw in an orderly fashion in the middle of a melee.... What if the enemy doesn't cooperate? I would imagine they are mobile enough to withdraw so long as they don't end up grappling, and grappling with somebody is pretty dumb to do when your opponent has a lot of friends right next to them.
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Apr 14, 2015 19:44
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Fangz posted:I always wonder how these manipular formations could have been effective in practice. The idea of cycling in fresh troops sounds good, but you are banking a lot on your ability to withdraw in an orderly fashion in the middle of a melee.... What if the enemy doesn't cooperate? Well, lots of different things got tried. These formations didn't often appear out of thin air and what you are seeing are the ones that worked.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:25
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PittTheElder posted:Because people can barely drive in two dimensions as it is. My Dad constantly rants about how his generation thought we'd all be in flying cars by now despite clear practical reasons it will never happen. One time he was in the middle of one of these rants and we passed someone who had flipped their SUV over on its roof on a perfectly clear day with no traffic. And it was on fire. I simply stated "Now imagine that guy flying over your house." Self driving electrics are a far more interesting concept.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:33
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http://www.svt.se/nyheter/vetenskap/mer-krut-i-vasas-kanoner Huh. They apparently made and test fired a copy of one of the guns from the Vasa recently, and apparently it's much more powerful than they previously thought. The cannon ball has a muzzle velocity of about 350 m/s and easily punches through a replica of the Vasa's own side (70 cm of oak wood). Not only that, in one of the ballistic tests the ball punched through the ship side, bounced on the ground a few hundred meters downrange and continued into the forest where it broke a thick pine trunk. Skip to 01:25 or so and see it in slow motion. e: also a video clip in English about halfway down this page: http://www.saabgroup.com/en/About-Saab/Newsroom/Press-releases--News/2014---12/Projekt-Vasakanon-lar-oss-mer-om-sjostrid-pa1600-talet/ TheFluff fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 20:35
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HEY GAL posted:Which is one reason why I'm pretty surprised nobody made a good modern 30yw movie. It didn't involve America and it's not part of American pop history.  (Hell, even John Q. European has barely heard of it)
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Apr 14, 2015 20:39
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I don't think Stash Augustine was talking about the relationship between the dudes in individual battalions, which is where leaving space for musketeers and rotating your dudes is an issue, I think s/he was talking about why the battalions are arranged catty-corner from one another in the Imperial sketch, and that's so they can support one another if they have to. They might also be talking about the different symbols on the Swedish side in the Swedish sketch, where it's a square of circles, then a square of little symbols like musical notes, then another square of circles. I think that refers to the "Swedish Wedge," which is a rectangular formation, six deep, pike in the center and musketeers to either side. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 20:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:Wouldn't a "post-Fall of France Germany that doesn't invade anyone else" be much less susceptible to a British blockade because it now has an entire other country to feed it? To say nothing of how Germany would be able to trade with Russia. My point is not that Britain could successfully blockade Germany in this scenario (if it pretty much rules all of Western Europe that's not going to work out well - note that historically Germany didn't experience WW1-style deprivation on the home front until it had lost the war), but that Germany likewise couldn't prevent Britain from maintaining the Empire. I suspect you'd end up with a Peace of Amiens-style stalemate for the time being.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:52
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Fangz posted:I always wonder how these manipular formations could have been effective in practice. The idea of cycling in fresh troops sounds good, but you are banking a lot on your ability to withdraw in an orderly fashion in the middle of a melee.... What if the enemy doesn't cooperate? I'm kinda curious about the answer myself, but if the reason for the cycling of the troops is to make sure that tired troops get replaced by fresh ones, the answer might be as simple as "the enemy are also tired and not able to effectively stop you from falling back."
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Apr 14, 2015 20:55
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You're not going to be able to get through the gaps in a checkered formation without having to fight past the gauntlets between the units leaving the gap. You're also going to have to deal with units further back making their way up to plug the hole/relieve the forward formations. It would be very easy to end up isolated and behind a solid line of the enemy. So sure, it's possible to get through, but it's probably not smart unless you have overwhelming numbers.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:04
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Jamwad Hilder posted:You're not going to be able to get through the gaps in a checkered formation without having to fight past the gauntlets between the units leaving the gap. You're also going to have to deal with units further back making their way up to plug the hole/relieve the forward formations. It would be very easy to end up isolated and behind a solid line of the enemy. So sure, it's possible to get through, but it's probably not smart unless you have overwhelming numbers.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:09
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Fangz posted:Sure, but we're talking the Romans here. They are always outnumbered. Right, but they're also professional soldiers and they're not ever fighting while in a checkered formation for significant periods of time. Maybe there's some overlap when the first line retreats through the second, but anyone who's dumb enough to chase Romans through the gaps is going to get killed pretty quickly if they haven't already been killed by the skirmishers between the two lines.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:16
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The manipular legions weren't professional soldiers. When Marius reformed the legions to make them a professional army everyone got their equipment issued by the state and with the basis of the manipular system dissolved the tactics went as well.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:20
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They still used the three line formation after the Marian reforms, what they phased out was the divisions based on age/social class/equipment since (as you mentioned) everything else was standardized.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:29
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TheFluff posted:http://www.svt.se/nyheter/vetenskap/mer-krut-i-vasas-kanoner quote:For two weeks was shot over 50 shots with Vasa Cannon. They tested how far cannon firing and the accuracy and impact it has. The goal was a three by five meters large ship side in oak specially made in the Vasa Museum carpentry, Vasa as a model. Although there are historical accounts of battles, but Fred Hocker and the squad was still not certain that the cannon ball would go through. The first shot was a success. 10-kg ball made easy holes in the 45 centimeter thick side. But there was a small burst of Splinters were on the inside than what Fred Hocker expected. quote:In the early 1600s, Sweden was at war with many of its neighbors to the south. It was about controlling the trade of the Baltic Sea and to stop the Catholic expansion in the 30-year war. King Gustavus Adolphus did mighty battleship and the Vasa would instill fear and respect in the war against Poland. But why then had the Vasa so powerful cannons? The Vasa was in a transition in how waged war at sea. The tactic earlier was that each ship chose their own goals and shot until they could board the and take over the ship. Later on, the Marines go over to the line tactics in which the vessels more coordinated lay down the sides of the enemy and pushed together until the enemy surrendered. It required more guns. Vasa was in between. Gustavus Adolphus wanted many guns, but the ship design was old-fashioned high-acts for boarding, and the tactic was lame. I don't see the article mentioning at what range the tests were fired. Also, no mention of this 
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Apr 14, 2015 21:47
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SeanBeansShako posted:Smoothbore barrel don't care. He just wanna shoot. Edit: Literal wizard-kings. The early modern period is so rad
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Apr 14, 2015 22:36
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HEY GAL posted:Not to mention that if you believe actual bullets won't kill your target, the lovely ballistics are outweighed by the fact that you have to find something that will work. And unlike what the people who killed Wallenstein did, you can't just dip the thing in holy water because you're a Lutheran. I love everything about the wizard-kings idea and early modern ideas of magic.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:58
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