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Funny, I was just arguing about the Australian dole cuts for anti-vaxxers on Facebook, and the response:Facebook Man posted:"you don't know me, you're making assumptions about me based on what you believe. He's quite right actually, I do consider him an ultra-left fringe lunatic. In any case, it pretty much ended on that vein, with no evidence presented in favour for his case, although to his credit, he refrained from childish name calling.
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# ? Apr 12, 2015 09:34 |
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# ? May 26, 2024 04:00 |
quote:I make an educated decision Nope. Unless "education" can also mean, "read tons of fringe-blog posts from people with no medical credentials, no experience in statistics, and no evidence to back their claims."
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# ? Apr 12, 2015 10:19 |
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Sic Semper Goon posted:It's a pity her children had to suffer in order to puncture her hubris, but at least she didn't stubbornly refuse to treat them post-infection. Looks like she'd already given up on anti-vax by that point. And it's not hubris - it's fear. Not fear of the seemingly-random behavior of disease, but fear of humans - of human malice exploiting her and her children for some nefarious ends, or human incompetence endangering her children through some well-meaning but mistaken medical practice (as has happened many times before). quote:I’m writing this from quarantine, the irony of which isn’t lost on me. Emotionally I’m a bit raw. Mentally a bit taxed. Physically I’m fine. All seven of my unvaccinated children have whooping cough, and the kicker is that they may have given it to my five month old niece, too young to be fully vaccinated. Notice a deep underrunning theme there - uncertainty and terror born from being both unable and unqualified to distinguish between real science and fake science, but feeling that the very existence of antivaxxers must indicate that there must be something to the anti-vax position since why would so many people believe something that isn't true (a viewpoint that also surfaces among climate change deniers too). Unable to fully trust medical and scientific sources, and fearful that both vaccinating and not vaccinating could be risky, they tend to lean toward not.
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# ? Apr 12, 2015 15:00 |
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VitalSigns posted:Wow turns out the massive piles of historical evidence that whooping cough really exists, including the testimony of her own mother, weren't made up, loving go figure who could have expected that. That's one of the things that confuses me the most about this- there are still plenty of people that were alive when various vaccines rolled out for the first time. If a lack of scientific understanding, as Main Paineframe pointed out, is one of the aspects leading people to buy into the anti-vax "nobody gets it anymore so it's not a big deal" narrative then one would think that more personal anecdotal evidence from maybe a friend who went to a pox party as a kid or an older relative who saw the polio vaccine roll out would at least do something to affect these people. Main Paineframe posted:Notice a deep underrunning theme there - uncertainty and terror born from being both unable and unqualified to distinguish between real science and fake science, but feeling that the very existence of antivaxxers must indicate that there must be something to the anti-vax position since why would so many people believe something that isn't true (a viewpoint that also surfaces among climate change deniers too). Unable to fully trust medical and scientific sources, and fearful that both vaccinating and not vaccinating could be risky, they tend to lean toward not. I feel like a good 90% of the dumb poo poo that happens in Canada is because of the cultural and political detritus that floats up from the states, like how Harper tries his absolute hardest to be a Republican.
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# ? Apr 12, 2015 15:18 |
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Schnedwob posted:That's one of the things that confuses me the most about this- there are still plenty of people that were alive when various vaccines rolled out for the first time. If a lack of scientific understanding, as Main Paineframe pointed out, is one of the aspects leading people to buy into the anti-vax "nobody gets it anymore so it's not a big deal" narrative then one would think that more personal anecdotal evidence from maybe a friend who went to a pox party as a kid or an older relative who saw the polio vaccine roll out would at least do something to affect these people. To quote directly from John Cook and Stephan Lewdandowsky's Debunking Handbook: quote:A common misconception about myths is the notion that removing its influence is as simple as packing more information into people’s heads. This approach assumes that public misperceptions are due to a lack of knowledge and that the solution is more information - in science communication, it’s known as the “information deficit model”. But that model is wrong: people don’t process information as simply as a hard drive downloading data. Refuting misinformation involves dealing with complex cognitive processes. To successfully impart knowledge, communicators need to understand how people process information, how they modify their existing knowledge and how worldviews affect their ability to think rationally. It’s not just what people think that matters, but how they think. (emphasis mine)
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# ? Apr 12, 2015 15:33 |
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Vermain posted:To quote directly from John Cook and Stephan Lewdandowsky's Debunking Handbook: Intentionally deceiving people about inane information is one thing, I would say the more important problem is that women in particular have been conditioned not to trust the medical community via their experiences with said community. You don't really know what you're up against here until you have a serious medical condition and discover that a doctor has been misleading you or withholding information that you might find critical. For example, I'm infertile (for X years or forever, who knows) and my first cancer doc decided it wasn't important to discuss that this would happen during chemo or sperm banks. You can't really ask a nurse or a doctor if your doctor is good, they will always say yes or give a non-answer (what else is there to say?). So you start looking for secondary sources because your primary sources have lost all credibility with you. And if it so happens that your secondary source is a charlatan or a crank, we're off to the races. I don't think it is any accident that the anti-vax movement seems dominated by women, who still have to fight to be treated equally in society. It's easy for the male-majority Internet community to ridicule these people from the sidelines and characterize them as morons, probably just after they get done doing their part for Gamergate.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 08:29 |
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Schnedwob posted:That's one of the things that confuses me the most about this- there are still plenty of people that were alive when various vaccines rolled out for the first time. If a lack of scientific understanding, as Main Paineframe pointed out, is one of the aspects leading people to buy into the anti-vax "nobody gets it anymore so it's not a big deal" narrative then one would think that more personal anecdotal evidence from maybe a friend who went to a pox party as a kid or an older relative who saw the polio vaccine roll out would at least do something to affect these people. It's not a lack of scientific understanding. They understand the mechanism that vaccines operate on, and often even accept it as truth. Usually, it's a lack of trust of the medical industry (aka Big Medicine) to carry it out properly and safely. For example, one of the most common anti-vaxxer arguments is that vaccines also have some horrible additive that actually causes horrible side effects that current science just hasn't realized yet (a familiar situation to most people older than twenty). Or fearing that drug companies, many of which have monopolies on their particular vaccine due to various federal laws, are carelessly making unsafe vaccines to increase profits. Or claiming that the massive drop in disease was due to some other factor that happened around the same time that the relevant vaccines were introduced, and that the vaccine industry just took credit for something they had nothing to do with. I suspect many anti-vaxxers wouldn't mind vaccinating if they could buy homemade non-GMO certified organic free-range vaccines with no preservatives from their local acupuncturist or homeopath, and in fact there are homeopaths who make "homeopathic vaccines" that they claim are just that and sell them to gullible anti-vaxxers. We live in a country where people are blaming artificial sweeteners for everything from obesity to cancer, and there are still structures standing with asbestos in them. It's well-known that cigarette companies covered up the health risks of smoking for decades, and didn't Coke or Hershey or something knowingly sell tainted baby formula to the third world after it was banned in the US? It's not even slightly surprising that people extend that distrust to the medical industry as well, especially considering that previous medicines have caused similar kinds of problems.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 15:01 |
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:I don't think it is any accident that the anti-vax movement seems dominated by women, who still have to fight to be treated equally in society. It's easy for the male-majority Internet community to ridicule these people from the sidelines and characterize them as morons, probably just after they get done doing their part for Gamergate. Calling out beliefs that happen to be dominated by women is not misogyny - it would be misogynistic to not call them out because they are women. Women are still overhelmingly the primary caretakers of children and it seems women may be more interested in health - certainly media directed at women are spun that way and that might enforce it. It stands to reason then that nutty beliefs in those areas would also be dominated by women simply because they spend more time thinking about it. Similarly media and popular culture idolizes a certain male ideal which in turn makes some beliefs and behavior more appealing to men such as the PUA movement or survivalism. Lying doctors causing anti-vaxx seems far fetched and it would mean that doctors are inexplicably "misleading you or withholding information " more in some communities than in others.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 15:31 |
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Doctors have done plenty of poo poo to encourage people to not believe them. For a long time bedside manner was seen as unimportant and puffing up the certainty of information seen as protective of the patient. Because of this, plenty of people (especially women) have had awful problems with doctors. Look at fibromyalgia for a good example. A population of mostly women who went to the doctor talking about awful pain and then received no treatment for their "fake" condition. Then a bunch of research into it was done and, SUPRISE, we just didn't know some things about how pain works. So you get all those people who had been going to different doctors across a decade or whatever finally hearing that those assholes who weren't listening to them were wrong. That kind of thing does not encourage trust in the medical establishment.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 16:27 |
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This was on my (lovely) local paper's website. It's just so I had to share it. And of course the reader comments never disappoint, also. http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/04/time_for_vaccination_nazis_to.html
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:03 |
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hmmmmmm https://uraonconsciousgovernance.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/a-call-for-pro-truth-to-replace-pro-vax-v-anti-vax/ looking at his profile, he has to sign everything with Ura P Auckland GAICD, FCPS, B.Bus Managing Director Recoome fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Apr 14, 2015 |
# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:07 |
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also just because you are calling yourself "pro-truth" doesn't make your position a positive one, it's still "anti-vax". Here's a choice quote from the article (bolding mine)quote:Through an old colleague I came to know a number of people in the HPV (Human Papaloma Virus) world. My old colleague is a scientist who took the CEO/Business path and counts as friends many of the HPV opinion leaders in the US. He will not have his daughter immunised for HPV because he believes it is poorly designed because it doesn’t address all the species of HPV. That omission changes the landscape for infection, but does not eradicate the disease and his position is that doing so is irresponsible and creates a false sense of safety in the patient, and in turn a complacency about managing ongoing risks in a disease that needs monitoring. People may disagree with his position, but it is one based on his reading of the complexity of the issue and is an example that it is not black and white, and that not all objectors are ill-informed. I am not going to vaccinate my child and give my child protection from HPV because it doesn't cover all the strains, why even both vaccinating if it doesn't cover all the strains it's so irresponsible to be complacent. The irony of the last comment
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:16 |
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I have a single FB friend who's falling deeper and deeper into this movement. He's been posting nothing but Nazi references since SB277 started getting momentum in California. It would essentially remove the "personal belief" exemption, and anti-vaxxers are going absolutely bonkers over it. Lotta Nazi references, like even more than usual. Here's a random article to show a bit of background: http://www.mercurynews.com/health/ci_27907241/vaccine-exemption-california-sb-277-opponents-vow-pull VVV Ha! That hadn't occurred to me. Capn Jobe fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Apr 14, 2015 |
# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:21 |
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Capn Jobe posted:I have a single FB friend who's falling deeper and deeper into this movement. He's been posting nothing but Nazi references since SB277 started getting momentum in California. Hahaha, it says something about my expectations of the movement that I was suspecting something different when I clicked on "mercurynews.com" as a link.
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 23:26 |
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Every time I read this thread... Anti-Vaxxers are a cancer on society and their arguments never make any sense. Apply their arguments to other aspects of life and it becomes so self-evident, that anyone who does not see it should be culled for being too idiotic. "Why should I wear a seatbealt in my car. It does not save your life 100% of the time and makes us complacant." Yeah, just hold yourself on the dash and see how it goes. "Most drivers in fatal car accidents are sober at the time, therefore it is safer to drive drunk." I like to show them the Re-Think vaccine image I /think/ I posted in this thread a while ago. Dalael fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Apr 15, 2015 |
# ? Apr 15, 2015 04:04 |
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Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraphquote:“I’ve never argued that vaccines don’t work. I just don’t think you need them. There are so many maladies now that used to be rare and now are much more prevalent—things like allergies, ADD, asthma, migraines, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, colitis, more colds. I’m not saying vaccines cause any of them, but the modern immune system might be less robust than it used to be because it doesn’t get its full workout going through a disease like the measles. I’m glad vaccines exist, just like I’m glad antibiotics exist, but we’ve abused the hell out of them. Bugs that no antibiotic works on anymore? I worry about that a lot more.”
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:04 |
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I wish my immune system fought off my migraines and ADD better too, Bill.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:09 |
Happy_Misanthrope posted:Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph Why does he have to have so many lovely ideas intertwined with his good ideas
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:10 |
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My son is a pussywillow weakass with no muscles and no dick because I didn't shove him facefirst into pox-ridden cow feces as an infant. - Bill Maher
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:10 |
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GreyPowerVan posted:Why does he have to have so many lovely ideas intertwined with his good ideas Because he's a legitimately really stupid person who coasts on saying objectively true things like 'maybe oppressing the lower class is...hosed UP???' and having smarter people on his show go 'yes Bill very good point'
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:12 |
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph Part of what he says makes a bit of sense tho. quote:Bugs that no antibiotic works on anymore? I worry about that a lot more.” I prefer George Carlin's way of putting it tho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X29lF43mUlo In the end tho, better vaccinate than catch the disease itself.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:15 |
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yes the answer is to expose kids these days to poo poo like chicken pox and measles that way their immune systems will be robust just like my good ol' pops* *please ignore the walking stick pop has used since he was a kid due to polio
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:17 |
Tatum Girlparts posted:Because he's a legitimately really stupid person who coasts on saying objectively true things like 'maybe oppressing the lower class is...hosed UP???' and having smarter people on his show go 'yes Bill very good point' I guess that's right. I don't really watch his show so I only see quotes online which are half good and half moronic. Now that Colbert is gone I just watch the Daily Show and Last Week Tonight.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:18 |
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph I'm not saying vaccines cause asthma, but I am saying that maybe we have asthma because we use vaccines
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:34 |
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I still remember watching that episode where Bill loving Frist schooled him on vaccinations. It was so loving pathetic.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:52 |
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so he's pretty much using a disease version of the "bootstraps" argument. If your immune system didn't cheat the system via vaccines then it would be able to handle pretty much anything you throw at it due to learning how to fight it the hard way amirite? these people are completely blind to what life was like before vaccines for gently caress's sake.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 05:57 |
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph Man, what a retard.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 07:21 |
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I love it when people discover how worthless Bill Maher is.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 09:27 |
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Where to start with Bill Maher? -Driven insane by 9/11, became a neocolonialist Islamophobe who supports racial profiling at airports. In this he has many strange bedfellows, but most of those bedfellows are smarter than him/know what they're talking about. -Libertarian, which if we're being serious is about all you need to know about how much deep thinking he does on any issue -Supports PETA -Pro-Vaccination of course -Is in the Ann Coulter School of Paid to Say Offensive poo poo for Attention -Is generally misidentified by Republicans as far-left because he disagrees and says impolite things about them -Constantly spews idiotic rhetoric and embarrassingly strange metaphors that make you wonder if he is even more stupid than you thought He's of no real value to anyone looking for thoughtful discourse on anything, he's just a noise machine who presents himself as a gadfly, which is nothing new really. Maher's show has given us Paul Begala torching Meghan McCain and the starting point for the Christine O'Donnell witchcraft story. Other than that it's a way for politicians, politically-involved celebrities, and the pundit class to promote themselves and cheerlead.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 10:00 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Looks like she'd already given up on anti-vax by that point. And it's not hubris - it's fear. Not fear of the seemingly-random behavior of disease, but fear of humans - of human malice exploiting her and her children for some nefarious ends, or human incompetence endangering her children through some well-meaning but mistaken medical practice (as has happened many times before). So the horrible loving irony here is that the very thing they were afraid of is why they listened to Wakefield in the first place. Who then proceeded to do exactly what they feared the medical community was trying to do and lied to them to make money and children suffered and died because of it.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 11:27 |
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Bill Maher is human garbage. End of line.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 12:44 |
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 13:32 |
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Gorilla Salad posted:So the horrible loving irony here is that the very thing they were afraid of is why they listened to Wakefield in the first place. Who then proceeded to do exactly what they feared the medical community was trying to do and lied to them to make money and children suffered and died because of it. Pretty much, yeah. Exploiting the fears people already had for semi-legit reasons (there's been plenty of medications that were recalled after years on the market because of previously-unnoticed side effects) is one of the most effective types of scam, right up there with exploiting people's greed.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 15:15 |
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph For instance - vaccines are literally a "workout for your immune system". Your immune system becomes more "robust" and effective when vaccinated, because it has fought and conquered a type of virus. You can picture it as a barbarian warrior with an extra skull on his belt, if that makes you feel better - the vaccine is a free level up, if that's the terminology that makes sense to you.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 15:24 |
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Xander77 posted:You know, a little "common anti-vax bullshit argument - simple and easy to understand refutation" might be useful. Maybe put it in the OP or something. Avoid the workout metaphor- for someone already exposed to antivax rhetoric, that translates to "exhausts the immune system". It's actually one of the tactics used in the delaying line of arguments.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 15:38 |
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Discendo Vox posted:Avoid the workout metaphor- for someone already exposed to antivax rhetoric, that translates to "exhausts the immune system". It's actually one of the tactics used in the delaying line of arguments. How about it gives it a profile of the virus. Insider spy information for your body to know what it's fighting. The invaders look like so and act like so.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 15:54 |
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Maher goes for record of cramming the most logical fallacies into one paragraph It's not totally ridiculous, considering how much fearmongering the media engages in over antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which are a legit concern but have absolutely blown up in the media since some idiot jackass invented the word "superbug". It looks like he's conflating that with vaccines, since if X thing that used to fight diseases actually creates stronger less-curable diseases that we're more vulnerable to, maybe Y thing does too! If you don't really know the details and don't really care to know them, it sounds pretty reasonable to a layman's common sense to conflate the two, especially in the wake of other recent media scaremongerings that could potentially have bypassed vaccination, like bird flu and swine flu and H1N1. On top of that, the natural-things industry loving loves to use a similar story - that artificial things weaken us and that if we go back to all-natural stuff it will strengthen our body and improve our health in all ways - as their selling point, so most people with money to spare or a Whole Foods within driving range have been exposed to that line of thinking often enough to be inclined to agree with it. It's dumb, but in more of a "he doesn't really know the details of how these things work" sense rather than the "oh my god how could anyone possibly be this stupid" sense. And you're doing yourself a disservice if you just default to the latter without seriously examining what might have led him to think the way he does, because a lot of other people have been subjected to those same influences. Hell, look at the hardcore paleo diet types, who literally eat raw, slightly-rotted meat because they think cavemen probably ate it and therefore it's more natural and healthier.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 16:15 |
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Rigged Death Trap posted:How about it gives it a profile of the virus. I'm not sure that will be effective (they'll divert onto the safety/lies rationale), but it doesn't directly map onto a counterpoint, so it's safer. There's an effortpost somewhere in me about how to approach persuasion in this context, but I'm currently swamped- it'll be a couple weeks.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 16:29 |
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Sadly, it seems the only effective argument to an anti-vaxxer is "ma'am, the tests came back, your kid has fuckin polio"
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 16:45 |
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# ? May 26, 2024 04:00 |
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VitalSigns posted:Sadly, it seems the only effective argument to an anti-vaxxer is "ma'am, the tests came back, your kid has fuckin polio" Guess the best way to stop the anti-vaxx movement is to put polio in the water with all the deadly flouride.
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# ? Apr 15, 2015 16:53 |