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Zaphod42 posted:There's a paint palette symbol at the bottom left corner Tactical, Science and Engineering?  (It's a Star Trek joke.)
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Apr 15, 2015 18:30
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CommissarMega posted:Tactical, Science and Engineering? You mean Security, Science/Engineering and Command 
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Apr 15, 2015 18:35
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The color stuff should be useful to keep my Grave Diggers straight. Right now I just have them named Fast, Slow, and Medium so I know which one is which. (I like making sure the one second from the right goes last so I can Lunge three times on the first round, so I gave Fast and Slow +speed and -speed trinkets respectively).
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Apr 15, 2015 18:48
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Are they ever going to nerf the Bounty Hunter because that poo poo is bonkers.
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Apr 15, 2015 18:55
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Phrasing posted:Are they ever going to nerf the Bounty Hunter because that poo poo is bonkers. God, I hope not.
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Apr 16, 2015 00:16
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Phrasing posted:Are they ever going to nerf the Bounty Hunter because that poo poo is bonkers. what, have you been repeatedly owned in the PvP ladders by them?
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Apr 16, 2015 00:43
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A.o.D. posted:what, have you been repeatedly owned in the PvP ladders by them? No I'm speaking on behalf of the monsters in my ancestor's estate.
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Apr 16, 2015 02:50
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First they came for the Hellions, and I said nothing... because seriously, the Hellions were ridiculous!
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Apr 16, 2015 03:18
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Living up to their name is not a crime.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:08
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I just realized this game is turn based Undying.
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Apr 16, 2015 10:58
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If anyone is wondering the trinket changes are extremely minor. Sun/moon stuff got slightly better, a few things got worse (poor hellions), but mostly nothing changed. At least as far as I'm concerned, all the drawbacks are still too heavy to make using 90% of the trinkets worth it. Guess I'll still be waiting for the new content to come back to this.
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Apr 16, 2015 17:01
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I haven't spent much time with the new patch yet, but from looking at the trinkets I already had, the higgest difference seems to be they removed a lot of the punishing negative attributes. So common ones are going to tend to be mediocre, but not confusingly bad, and can actually be used for stacking resistances and stuff now.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:36
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victrix posted:I just realized this game is turn based Undying. Ancestral manors are just bad news. Your Ancestor is always an idiot.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:49
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I can't wait for the new bosses just to hear what stupid poo poo he did that lead to the creation of them.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:54
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Wait, so what's bonkers about Bounty Hunter now? Did I miss something?
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Apr 16, 2015 20:29
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Internet Kraken posted:I can't wait for the new bosses just to hear what stupid poo poo he did that lead to the creation of them. Next area is the caverns right? Next to the sea? "They told me I shouldn't have banged that fish... they where right."
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Apr 16, 2015 20:32
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Lotish posted:Wait, so what's bonkers about Bounty Hunter now? Did I miss something? Single target damage, generally speaking, is more powerful than multi-target damage in the current incarnation of the game, since enemies hit just as hard at 1 HP as they do with full health, and most of the most dangerous enemies have a LOT of health. Maggots can be a serious issue and have very little health, but they're kind of an anomaly honestly. The Bounty Hunter specializes in single target damage, and can apply that single target damage basically from anywhere, to anywhere. He also has a couple of skills to debuff and/or stun the enemy to make them more susceptible to his already pretty hard hits. A party of 4 BHs is one of the strongest setups in the game right now just because you can constantly have 2 of them marking or stunning dudes for the other 2 to loving rock with Collect Bounty or Finish Him. Bounty Hunters are even better against big guys due to the camp skill Takedown Plan, and it just so happens that a lot of the most serious threats in the game (including bosses!) count as big. The BH could be balanced a bit by fiddling with his skills (Finish Him REALLY should not be able to hit all 4 ranks), but he's going to remain top tier as long as he's so self sufficient. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 20:43
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I don't really buy that analysis. 4 attacks per round is typically better than 2 attacks per round that do double damage, since there's fewer attacks wasted to overkill. Moreover, the additive math behind damage modifiers means that Finish Him scales very poorly with buffs in comparison with multi-target attacks, which can potentially OHKO basic enemies if you stack a few damage buffs (although this is likely harder with trinket rebalancing.) The BH is a great class early on and does well in general, but they're not the be-all class.
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Apr 16, 2015 21:13
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Yea I haven't tried out a 4 bounty hunter team, but I don't know if I really see it working out that much better than something like the 2 highwayman 2 occultist medium/long dungeon low light team. Maybe I'm just not seeing what grabbing an extra 2 bounty hunters over other options really gives you, except some ability to ignore turn order.
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Apr 16, 2015 21:49
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Coolguye posted:The BH could be balanced a bit by fiddling with his skills (Finish Him REALLY should not be able to hit all 4 ranks), but he's going to remain top tier as long as he's so self sufficient.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:04
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You should be using marks with the Bounty Hunter so you one/two shot large enemies and get that sweet 75 dmg crit on a boss.
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Apr 17, 2015 03:09
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Gabriel Pope posted:I don't really buy that analysis. 4 attacks per round is typically better than 2 attacks per round that do double damage, since there's fewer attacks wasted to overkill. Moreover, the additive math behind damage modifiers means that Finish Him scales very poorly with buffs in comparison with multi-target attacks, which can potentially OHKO basic enemies if you stack a few damage buffs (although this is likely harder with trinket rebalancing.) The BH is a great class early on and does well in general, but they're not the be-all class. You're absolutely right, 4 attacks per round is better than 2 attacks, which is precisely what makes a BH party so great. Finish Him can hit from anywhere, to anywhere, and Collect Bounty is first 3 slots. They both have identical accuracy and damage (Collect Bounty has +2% crit over Finish Him) so they're both basically an attack. Well, if the guy in the back drops a mark on a tough enemy, and then ANY one of his allies hits that target, they've basically washed for damage that round. And then next round, everyone can strike again, and you've basically got 5 attacks per round. So what's better than 4 attacks per round? 5 attacks per round! The overkill note doesn't really come into effect that much because if there's something that honestly doesn't need to be hit twice to go down, then you hit it once, next target. 2-3 hits to kill, you're basically washing on actions, and if it needs to be hit more than 3 times then you're reducing the number of actions to take it down, which is common with some of the big assholes. This analysis is a little dishonest, though, since it presumes you know the number of hits to kill from the get-go. Damage in DD is swingy enough that if you claim to know it's going to require x number of hits to kill, you're probably a liar unless x happens to be 1. I'm not really of the opinion that BHs are 'overpowered' as such - this isn't a competitive game so honestly who gives a flying poo poo unless something is so powerful that there's no reason to ever use anything else - but in terms of sheer murder power regardless of the situation, it's extremely, extremely difficult to compete with a team of 4 Bounty Hunters. It can be done, but it requires a much more in-depth understanding and knowledge of the game, and it will frequently be pretty vulnerable to player party surprises and shuffling. On the other hand, 4 BHs are basically ready to choke a bitch no matter what happens and no matter what the enemy resistances are. Nobody resists marking. Other classes can be hamstrung by bleed or blight resist (hellion/PD), other classes have to be fighting certain classes of nerd to really be hitting their hardest (crusaders), but a BH gives no fucks, all he needs is a mark and an axe and he is ready to rumble. And he can bring both to the party, and then also bring Flashbang for shuffle and stun, or Come Hither for a pull.
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Apr 17, 2015 05:30
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I'll counter your statement in that to have a full BH party be effective you have to understand a decent amount of the game mechanics (stuns/marks/shuffles). Perhaps as much about how the game works for another party. If you're able to grasp how/why a 4BH party works (marks/stuns/etc) then you can grok how other setups work just as well, and a 4BH setup doesn't have anything over other options besides only having to learn 1 class abilities rather than several. Is a 4BH going to be more effective than vestral+2Crusader+X in the ruins? Is it going to outshine 2HWM+2OCC in a low light run? Is it going to outshine any sort of hodgepode setup that accounts for positioning/etc? Maybe in the boss fights where you know the boss is a 2-size guy and poo poo, but aside from that I don't see it being stronger than other options, and aside from specific boss setups it doesn't jump out as stronger than other options, which makes me think that it isn't OP or anything.
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Apr 17, 2015 10:51
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I would say throw an occultist in there for marks or healing, but that team lineup is really good at taking down healthy enemies. After the mark, each collect doing double makes up for the mark action with one hit, and gets a 'free' swing in on the second hit. If something is still alive past then the utility is great, but I would much rather have a more mixed up team comp for some aoe when I hit spiders/maggets/dogs. Is 4 bh probably the highest dps theoretically? Yes, but only against a wall of health like a boss. Most other fights are much less efficient for them.
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Apr 17, 2015 16:03
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Brutor Fartknocker posted:I would say throw an occultist in there for marks or healing, but that team lineup is really good at taking down healthy enemies. After the mark, each collect doing double makes up for the mark action with one hit, and gets a 'free' swing in on the second hit. If something is still alive past then the utility is great, but I would much rather have a more mixed up team comp for some aoe when I hit spiders/maggets/dogs. I had pretty good luck with Ves-Occ-BH-BH on boss runs. Vestal and Occultist means you're drat near impossible to kill, and if no one has super low HP, the Occ can toss out marks or stabs.
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Apr 17, 2015 18:16
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Coolguye posted:You're absolutely right, 4 attacks per round is better than 2 attacks, which is precisely what makes a BH party so great. Finish Him can hit from anywhere, to anywhere, and Collect Bounty is first 3 slots. They both have identical accuracy and damage (Collect Bounty has +2% crit over Finish Him) so they're both basically an attack. Well, if the guy in the back drops a mark on a tough enemy, and then ANY one of his allies hits that target, they've basically washed for damage that round. And then next round, everyone can strike again, and you've basically got 5 attacks per round. So what's better than 4 attacks per round? 5 attacks per round! 4 bounty hunters doing mark + collect bounty can do 200% damage to 2 enemies in 1 round. 4 basic attacks also do 200% damage to 2 enemies in 1 round. 4 AOEs can do 240% or more damage to 2 enemies, or at least 195% to 3 enemies. Meanwhile, 4 bounty hunters with +20% damage do a total of 280% damage to 2 enemies. 4 AOEs with +20% damage meanwhile get to do upwards of 320% damage to 2 enemies, and the triple hitters can very trivially do 300% damage to 3 enemies. That's the equivalent of an entire extra mark/collect pair each round. Bounty hunters utterly melt bosses, of course, and they're strong enough that you don't have to worry too much about most random battles along the way. Stacking BHs is a pretty easy no brainer strategy, but it's not nearly as powerful as really min-maxed groups.
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Apr 17, 2015 19:18
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Bounty hunters: Yup. I wish trinkets in general were closer to sun/moon gear in effectiveness, because while I would say that Sun/moon is op, it's more like nothing else is really worth it. Keeping light high or low is such a nonpenalty, and all the bonuses are baller. Exception being the ring I think, it's just trash. Cloaks and bracers all day long. I don't know, someone give me examples of using trinkets with negatives and explain how it is worth it, since crusader shields with minus speed are the only ones I care to use, because holy poo poo tanks.
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Apr 17, 2015 19:47
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Minus and plus speed are good when you've got a combat strategy that you want to execute in a certain order (multiple lunges is the easy example). Minus bleed chance on occultist lowers the chance that he'll bleed your guy when you heal. The +ACC -DMG ring is great for ranged guys where you just want the thing to hit, or a dot (plague doc). Some of the stuff with -dodge doesn't make a big difference, either because you're getting +prot out of it or because it is your back row guy and they don't get nailed that much. I could probably find uses for a lot of them, and this is all before the current patch. So mostly it is they're worth it for a specific plan, and if you aren't doing that then they're not good. Just like the sun/moon stuff!
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Apr 17, 2015 20:16
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Brutor Fartknocker posted:I don't know, someone give me examples of using trinkets with negatives and explain how it is worth it, since crusader shields with minus speed are the only ones I care to use, because holy poo poo tanks. Some pairs of items offset such that they create a net benefit with no drawback. I am not at my computer so don't have the details, but one of my characters is wearing something like a +10% damage, -3 ACC item together with a -10% damage, +10 ACC item. (I could be misremembering the stats in question - it may be dodge and ACC - but the net result is a gain for no drawback). One item is common, the other rare. Edit: also have a Vestal with a Vestal-only item giving + to max HP, and - to damage. Since she spends 80% of her time healing, not a huge drawback. Carbolic fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 21:54
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Here are a few common trinkets I have in my inventory that have negligible penalties. Bleed Charm: +10% Bleed Resist, -1% CRT - losing 1 point of crit is well worth that resist, especially if you're going up against one of the many jerks who like to hand out bleeds Blood Charm: +10% Blight Resist, +20% Bleed Resist, -10% Disease Resist - if you're not in the Warrens then this basically has no drawbacks, even out of the warrens -10% is a worthwhile tradeoff Damage Stone: +10% Damage, -3 Dodge - pretty self-explanatory, any DPS character could use this I can't remember what those trinkets used to be, and couldn't find any screenshots, but they were definitely much worse to the point where I just ignored them all.
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Apr 18, 2015 02:38
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ZypherIM posted:I'll counter your statement in that to have a full BH party be effective you have to understand a decent amount of the game mechanics (stuns/marks/shuffles). Gabriel Pope posted:4 bounty hunters doing mark + collect bounty can do 200% damage to 2 enemies in 1 round. 4 basic attacks also do 200% damage to 2 enemies in 1 round. 4 AOEs can do 240% or more damage to 2 enemies, or at least 195% to 3 enemies. All of this also ignores the fact that AOE attacks also tend to have lower ACC bases than single-target attacks, as well (compare Grapeshot at 75 vs Finish Him/Collect at 80), and due to the math involved it actually hurts a lot more if an AOE attack misses. All that said, absolutely, if you can get a properly min-maxed party that has AOE that can routinely hit the medium-damage breakpoints you need them to hit in a single turn, yeah, you're likely going to have a pretty loving good time and those guys are going to absolutely poo poo on most things you can find in most dungeons - way better than a BH party. But that's a lot, LOT higher class than dropping 4 BHs in a group and calling it a day. And you can't even get one of those high class parties going without a substantial investment. The worst thing you can have happen in a BH party is that none of the dudes you recruited knew Mark for Death coming off the wagon, in which case, quick visit to the Guild for one skill, we're done here. e: I guess it's worth saying again after going all  on this - I don't mean to say that the BH needs a nerf yesterday because he's so powerful or whatever. I mean to say that he's clearly out of line with the others in that his 'weakness' (no AOE) is a limp-wristed one at best, and he's clearly stronger than any other individual class for it.
Coolguye fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 07:26
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Lvel 0 highwayman/hellion AOE spam is ~15 damage per turn to three targets on average, which will wipe out most novice enemies. It only gets better from there. RNG variance and misses mean you will probably leave at least 1 enemy alive, but that doesn't put you any worse off than 4x BH since their big schtick can't kill more than 2 targets per turn. And that's really the rub of it: a party of any 4 strong attackers will almost never be worse off than a 4x BH party, because 95% of the time a class with a strong basic attack will outperform anything a BH can do. That 5% of the time is against enemies with giant HP pools which, contrary to your assertion, are generally not very threatening. The big bandit is the only large enemy that's scary and it has low enough HP that the BH only enjoys a moderate advantage over just whacking it with 4 decent basic attacks (3x If It Bleeds would probably do the trick most of the time too, in the same number of attacks as double Collect Bountying it.) Ghouls can be annoying, the giant slime and giant skeleton are theoretically dangerous but don't ever seem to come with the support they need to be dangerous, swinetaurs can hurt but are easy to shut down and rarely get a chance to pull off their big attack, and blighted giants are an utter joke. Maggots and spiders are definitely much bigger threats than most groups that include large enemies that the BH excels against.
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Apr 18, 2015 13:44
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Thanks for the sell on some of those trinkets, I was super hesitant to take any negatives whatsoever. I guess I don't care about 4 bh teams because they seem boring to me. Also, whenever I'm fighting a group of enemies, I shuffle and focus the annoying weak ones in the back and stun lock all the big things which bh damage comes in handy for.
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Apr 19, 2015 01:56
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So has anyne found any of the special team names?
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Apr 19, 2015 09:06
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RottenK posted:So has anyne found any of the special team names? I've found "The Usual Suspects" - Crusader, Highway Man, Plague Doc and Vestal.
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Apr 19, 2015 09:11
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bondetamp posted:I've found "The Usual Suspects" - Crusader, Highway Man, Plague Doc and Vestal. quote:Vestal+Plague Doctor+Highwayman+Crusader=The Usual Suspects
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Apr 19, 2015 09:17
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Toplowtech posted:Crusader+Crusader+Crusader+Crusader=Mission Impossible I don't get it.
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Apr 19, 2015 11:08
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Has anyone found any of the new trinkets that supposedly only drop in Medium or Long darkness parties?
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Apr 19, 2015 12:11
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THE BAR posted:I don't get it. Cruise-aders.
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Apr 19, 2015 16:08
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Okay, the World of Tanks party setup made me laugh.
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Apr 19, 2015 16:24
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