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The Ninth Layer posted:I dunno why everyone thought Gohan would ever be the hero of the show. He's always been a reluctant warrior; it was even a plot point in the Cell Saga that Gohan knew he had a hidden rage but didn't want to let it control him. He's definitely the guy who would rather spend time with his girlfriend over fighting villains or getting stronger. Gohan is just not as motivated a fighter when compared to Goku or Vegeta. He has more raw talent than even Goku does but fighting has never been a priority for him. And not only that, but he's been fighting bad guys since he was 4 or 5. He killed Cell. He's got nothing to prove to anyone. He's earned the right to settle down.
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Apr 16, 2015 10:22
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Gohan just wants to read his books and hang out with Videl and his kid instead of fighting gods of destruction all day. That's way more Goku and Vegetas thing I'm okay with that
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Apr 16, 2015 10:24
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Gohan would be the main hero if we got an entire series on the Great Saiyaman. Which we would if there was any justice in the world. 
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Apr 16, 2015 10:29
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Mraagvpeine posted:Obviously Goku needs to face all the Gods of Destruction in a boss rush and reign supreme as the omnipotent god of fighting. Would own
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Apr 16, 2015 10:30
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Gohan would be the main hero if we got an entire series on the Great Saiyaman. Which we would if there was any justice in the world. I swear to god I read that as the Great Salaryman
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Apr 16, 2015 10:35
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A manga about Gohan trying, and failing, to be an ordinary high school kid would be amazing.
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Apr 16, 2015 10:38
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We got an arc of it and it was pretty great.
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Apr 16, 2015 10:45
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Pureauthor posted:A manga about Gohan trying, and failing, to be an ordinary high school kid would be amazing. No joke, my favorite part of the entire series. And I can't stand Gohan. And it is really no wonder people thought Gohan would be the new hero. The Cell arc literally ends with Goku saying "No, don't use the magical McGuffin to reverse my death as we have plenty of times before, maybe I should stay dead this time, time to pass the torch". In any other story, that would have been a telltale sign that we get a new main protagonist comes the new arc. And we did. Not only is it suddenly 8 years later, Gohan grow up, much like Goku before him. And the story focuses exclusively on him and his new friends for the first couple of chapters. We don't even get to see the rest of the cast for a good while aside from some cameos. And even after we know Goku will come back, we still focus on Gohan and his adventures at the Tournament. After all, he is the reason The Kaioshin and Babidi are there. It only really becomes Goku's story again once Gohan gets his poo poo kicked out of him be Dabra. But yes, at the same time, it's pretty clear why he doesn't work as the main protagonist. He just isn't interested enough in fighting to keep the story going on his own, which is a pretty big obstacle. Every other character is a huge martial artists enthusiast and that is the major driving force of the entire manga. It's actually kind of amazing when you compare Dragonball to contemporary stories, where a huge part of the story is that hero is actually only a reluctant fighter that has be coaxed by villain into fighting, while Son Goku and friends basically jump at any change to punch a giant monster in the face.
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Apr 16, 2015 11:14
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New DB Multiverse.  (Yeah, yeah. We knew it was coming, but this side arc has been really good, so far.)
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Apr 16, 2015 12:52
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Creepy isn't it? It's been a great little side-story so far.
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Apr 16, 2015 12:57
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Stallion Cabana posted:Only this one. He even mentions there are Gods of Destruction in other Universes that are stronger then he is This opens up such a wonderful arc that really was the only real direction DBZ could go.
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Apr 16, 2015 13:43
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Thyrork posted:Creepy isn't it? It's been a great little side-story so far. That line of dialogue was just so perfectly unnerving. Some pretty decent writing to go with the amazing art.
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Apr 16, 2015 13:58
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e X posted:No joke, my favorite part of the entire series. And I can't stand Gohan. The Buu saga never really turned into Goku's story. It was all pretty much ensemble. Gohan was the main character until Buu got resurrected, then it focused on Vegeta, then it focused on Goten/Trunks/Piccolo (Goku only stayed around to teach them), then Gohan again, then Goku + Vegeta, then Satan saved the world. Goku barely did anything in it besides making the genki dama and pushing it at Buu, and that part focused more on the world saving themselves via Mr. Satan. I guess people focus on "who got the last hit" more than what's going on when they say the series shifted over to Goku as the hero, but it really didn't until Battle of the Gods (Yo! Goku was also ensemble) , and now it seems to have shifted to Goku/Vegeta in Revival of F. Of course, the Toei movies and additions give a different impression, since they're always all about Goku.
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Apr 16, 2015 14:25
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Darko posted:The Buu saga never really turned into Goku's story. It was all pretty much ensemble. Gohan was the main character until Buu got resurrected, then it focused on Vegeta, then it focused on Goten/Trunks/Piccolo (Goku only stayed around to teach them), then Gohan again, then Goku + Vegeta, then Satan saved the world. Goku barely did anything in it besides making the genki dama and pushing it at Buu, and that part focused more on the world saving themselves via Mr. Satan. Fair enough, my point was mostly about Gohan actually being the main character, at least for a awhile.
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Apr 16, 2015 14:40
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e X posted:Fair enough, my point was mostly about Gohan actually being the main character, at least for a awhile. Yeah, I just kind of used your post as a launching point for my own soapbox.
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Apr 16, 2015 14:47
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Much like how the Androids had Dr Gero saying KILL GOKU on an infinite loop, Gohan had Chi-Chi saying FIGHTER BAD, SCHOLAR GOOD.
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Apr 16, 2015 14:50
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Darko posted:Yeah, I just kind of used your post as a launching point for my own soapbox. That's a really poor argument though. If we follow your logic then none of Dragonball Z is about Goku. The first arc is him and Piccolo, then he dies is and is out of comission until he comes back and fights Vegeta and doesn't even finish the fight. Then he's out of commission again while Namek adventures happen, comes in, beats the last Ginyus, is out of commission again until he shows up to fight Frieza. Then he's gone again until he comes back and sort-of fights an Android until he's out of commission yet again then he comes back and trains to fight Cell and fails and Gohan takes over. Then he's dead. Until he comes back for Buu. Either it's entirely an ensemble cast (where none of the cast except Gohan ever really succeeds) or it's about Goku the whole way through. Shonen shows focus on other characters for a time. That doesn't mean that the main character isn't still the main character.
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Apr 16, 2015 14:53
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ImpAtom posted:That's a really poor argument though. Most of Dragon Ball Z doesn't have Goku as a main character. He's the "hero" of the Saiyan/Freeza sagas because much of the attention is on him showing up and saving the day. However, android/Cell/Buu become pretty much completely ensemble, with "hero" status being assigned to whoever is around at the time. There isn't really a point in either where the focus is on waiting for Goku to show up and do something post Freeza until BoG. There's a really large main protagonist shift that gradually happens in the Z era and really takes hold in the android saga, where the focus is on everyone doing stuff as opposed to Goku doing stuff. It's basically like the time Toriyama spent in the Freeza saga having Krillen/Gohan/Vegeta running around and Goku out of the picture made him more interested in freely following everyone else around than just Goku (compare to any point of pre-Z Dragon Ball). By the end, Goku is barely doing anything.
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Apr 16, 2015 15:03
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Onmi posted:I swear to god I read that as the Great Salaryman I AM AN ALLY TO BUSINESS! I WILL NOT TOLERATE LAZINESS! GREAT SALARYMAN! "Sir, can you please stop posing on my desk?"
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Apr 16, 2015 15:18
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ImpAtom posted:That's a really poor argument though. I think Darko has a pretty good case, and you actually bring up a good point with the Saiyan and Namek arc, when you compare that to Cell and Buu. Up to the Freeza arc, its really just Goku who defeats any major villains, with the other basically just playing for time, even when Goku is out of commission, waiting till he gets back. That chances with the Androids. Not only does he never encounters most of them, he actually loses the two fights he is. that is a pretty big break for Dragonball, since, before that, Goku was the focal point of every single fight.
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Apr 16, 2015 15:31
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Darko posted:Most of Dragon Ball Z doesn't have Goku as a main character. He's the "hero" of the Saiyan/Freeza sagas because much of the attention is on him showing up and saving the day. However, android/Cell/Buu become pretty much completely ensemble, with "hero" status being assigned to whoever is around at the time. There isn't really a point in either where the focus is on waiting for Goku to show up and do something post Freeza until BoG. There's a really large main protagonist shift that gradually happens in the Z era and really takes hold in the android saga, where the focus is on everyone doing stuff as opposed to Goku doing stuff. It's basically like the time Toriyama spent in the Freeza saga having Krillen/Gohan/Vegeta running around and Goku out of the picture made him more interested in freely following everyone else around than just Goku (compare to any point of pre-Z Dragon Ball). By the end, Goku is barely doing anything. The thing is that you're mixing screentime with main character. Many shows in the same genre do the same thing and focus on the ensemble casts before the main character comes in to clean up. They are still considered the main character and it is not considered an ensemble cast. It's just a concete of the genre. Part of the fondness they have for tournament arcs is that it allows them to follow this format without quite as expected an outcome. Goku is absolutely the main character. He's just the main character of a shonen action series. (and one of the defining ones so a lot of other shows take the "main character is absent/out of comission/whatever, the lower-tier dudes fight for a bit, main character returns for the climactic fight" style that DBZ did.)
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Apr 16, 2015 15:37
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ImpAtom posted:The thing is that you're mixing screentime with main character. Many shows in the same genre do the same thing and focus on the ensemble casts before the main character comes in to clean up. They are still considered the main character and it is not considered an ensemble cast. It's just a concete of the genre. Part of the fondness they have for tournament arcs is that it allows them to follow this format without quite as expected an outcome. I'm not talking about screen time though - I'm talking specifically about focus. Even when Goku was offscreen early on, everyone was talking about him or waiting on him. This stopped happening. Up until the android arc, Goku was absolutely the focus, although it was still gradually becoming less and less. After that, the series subverted its own genre by making the focus, not Goku, and then, to cement it, when you thought Goku would come in and beat Cell, it specifically said, "nope, it's Gohan that's really the star right now." This continued in the Buu arc. It's a lot more apparent in the manga than the anime, though. The anime refocused on Goku by giving him his own arcs in heaven, having him fight people he had no business fighting, and switching the focus on him fighting Kid Buu as opposed to "SSJ3 sucks" as it was in the manga. I'd argue that little changed in the anime, at the end, s compared to the manga.
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Apr 16, 2015 15:59
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how wasthe focus in the manga that "ssj3 sucks"
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Apr 16, 2015 16:24
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tbp posted:how wasthe focus in the manga that "ssj3 sucks" It was useless, didn't work right to the point of screwing the user over every time, and never accomplished anything good.
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Apr 16, 2015 16:33
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tbp posted:how wasthe focus in the manga that "ssj3 sucks" I think the anime made Goku's solo fights with Buu much longer.
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Apr 16, 2015 16:48
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is this thread just cyclical
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Apr 16, 2015 16:49
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SSJ3 was used 5 times in the arc. 1st time it bought like a minute of time and drained Goku so severely it actually cut his time(???) on earth. 2nd time it legitimately accomplished something by breaking Piccolo and Gotenks out of the RoSaT. Drained too quickly to be of use in combat. 3rd time it ended up being Fusion fodder for Buu, who started handing Gohan his own rear end. 4th time it was pointless desperation move because Gohan failed to catch an earring. Notably, Goku didn't actually fight with it, and both combatants knew it wasn't going to help one bit. 5th time it fought more or less evenly with Kid Buu for a while and then Goku's attempt to 'charge' it just blew most of his energy and achieved jack squat.
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Apr 16, 2015 17:05
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mycot posted:I think the anime made Goku's solo fights with Buu much longer. Yeah, that was the point really. The anime: - Gave Goku that whole afterworld tournament arc that put more focus on him (as opposed to the manga which just focused on Gohan early on, until he heard his dad was showing up) - Had Goku actually fight Fat Buu for a bit as SSJ3 instead of two hits and a kamehameha/mimic kamehameha and then fly away - Had Goku fighting Super Buu for a bit, which he had no business doing - Had episodes of Goku/Vegeta inside Buu fighting clones of everyone - Had Goku fighting Kid Buu for a lot longer (along with multiple "it's the strongest Buu" statements that hyped that fight up more) It gave him a lot more involvement in the whole thing than the manga, and is also the source of the old "Goku is stronger than Gohan" arguments on the Internet.
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Apr 16, 2015 17:13
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Darko posted:Yeah, that was the point really. As a side note, I really loved the Other World Tournament arc. I mean it was probably stupid, but it had a bunch of random combatants with weird as poo poo powers fighting each other and I like that.
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Apr 16, 2015 17:53
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Yorkshire Tea posted:As a side note, I really loved the Other World Tournament arc. I mean it was probably stupid, but it had a bunch of random combatants with weird as poo poo powers fighting each other and I like that. Me too. Its a filler that's in the correct spirit for DBZ. Plus Not-Piccolo is a nice side character. Fusion Reborn's great for this reason too.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:12
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So after having a conversation with a friend during which I realized I know way too much about Dragon Ball for someone who has never watched it, I've decided to do that now. First five episodes were pretty okay. Probably gonna be awhile before I hit Z.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:41
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Bad Seafood posted:So after having a conversation with a friend during which I realized I know way too much about Dragon Ball for someone who has never watched it, I've decided to do that now. I think I would have hated this franchise if I ever had to watch it in a format that isn't DBZAbridged. The manga is the only way to go.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:48
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I figure if it becomes a slog I can always quit. Considering how influential it is though, I felt compelled to check it out on its own terms; Dragon Ball according to Dragon Ball rather than the fans.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:52
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Rodyle posted:is this thread just cyclical Just like the arcs!
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Apr 16, 2015 18:53
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Thyrork posted:Me too. Its a filler that's in the correct spirit for DBZ. Plus Not-Piccolo is a nice side character. Fusion Reborn's great for this reason too. Pikkon is like the only filler character other than Broly to show up more than once, and he's invariably loving great
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Apr 16, 2015 18:57
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Bad Seafood posted:I figure if it becomes a slog I can always quit. Considering how influential it is though, I felt compelled to check it out on its own terms; Dragon Ball according to Dragon Ball rather than the fans. Which is why the manga is probably the more time efficient way to go. Compare 153 DB, 291 DBZ episodes (444 episodes total) to 42 Manga Volumes (519 total chapters). Granted you might be able to cut some filler out of DB and DBZ to cut down on the total episodes, but that's still a lot of episodes to watch.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:58
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LORD OF BUTT posted:Pikkon is like the only filler character other than Broly to show up more than once, and he's invariably loving great I hope Pikkon shows up Xenoverse 2, especially in his over the top Heroes design.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:00
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LORD OF BUTT posted:Pikkon is like the only filler character other than Broly to show up more than once, and he's invariably loving great Don't forget Olibu. He lost to Pikkon in the Otherworld tournament in a close match, then came back to get his rear end beat by Yamcha.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:02
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Rudoku posted:Don't forget Olibu. He lost to Pikkon in the Otherworld tournament in a close match, then came back to get his rear end beat by Yamcha. Holy poo poo, Yamcha is wining a fight. It's filler, but, still, it's unprecedented.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:08
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Cozz posted:Which is why the manga is probably the more time efficient way to go. Compare 153 DB, 291 DBZ episodes (444 episodes total) to 42 Manga Volumes (519 total chapters). Granted you might be able to cut some filler out of DB and DBZ to cut down on the total episodes, but that's still a lot of episodes to watch.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:32
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