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Spiritus Nox posted:I'm dumb and don't get it. Just move past and have a senzu bean.
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Apr 17, 2015 01:57
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Spiritus Nox posted:I'm dumb and don't get it. your loss
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Apr 17, 2015 02:12
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Spiritus Nox posted:I'm dumb and don't get it. Zenkais are often tougher for the alien warlord than they are for the saiyan.
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Apr 17, 2015 02:20
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Xibanya posted:Post Eee, I admit I misread your post. I do look forward to an art post, the technical part of Dragon Ball is overlooked a lot.
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Apr 17, 2015 02:23
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Spiritus Nox posted:I'm dumb and don't get it. Ctrl+Alt+Delete is a dumb webcomic about an eternal manchild. It decided to have an issue about a miscarriage. This issue was so out of left field that it became infamous and spawned numerous clones. Xibanya's comic is one of those clones.
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Apr 17, 2015 02:35
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Apr 17, 2015 02:45
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Oh wow. MeccaPrime posted:Just move past and have a senzu bean. TheKingofSprings posted:your loss Hobo Siege posted:Zenkais are often tougher for the alien warlord than they are for the saiyan. Thank you so much.
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Apr 17, 2015 02:47
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The Bee posted:DBZA Goku works incredible in DBZA, but if I was trying to read DBZ in that voice it probably would fit awkwardly at best. Maybe Krillin too but I'm not sure on that note. I think this is more what I mean when I say I have an issue with their Goku. Abridged Goku feels like a typical "Abridged" Character to me, whereas someone like their Vegeta feels like a genuinely funny take on a canon character. Like, I actually imagine that Vegeta running around in Toriyama's/the English Dub's world.
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Apr 17, 2015 02:55
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MeccaPrime posted:Just move past and have a senzu bean. TheKingofSprings posted:your loss Hobo Siege posted:Zenkais are often tougher for the alien warlord than they are for the saiyan.  Man, why is everyone making fun ofCovok posted:Ctrl+Alt+Delete is a dumb webcomic about an eternal manchild. It decided to have an issue about a miscarriage. This issue was so out of left field that it became infamous and spawned numerous clones. Xibanya's comic is one of those clones. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Well fuckin' done.
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Apr 17, 2015 02:58
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Toriyama Is An Artistic Genius, part 1.1: Poses and Blocking I'm going to be making a series of effort posts about Toriyama's awesome art. I will mainly be focusing on Dragonball's Chapter 30, so feel free to read along. I picked that chapter because most flashbacks to Dragonball in the DBZ anime reference this scene and because it showcases many (but not all) of the techniques I plan to discuss in this series of effortposts. Your effort post itinerary will be as follows (with minor changes as needed): Part 1: Parsing the scene; poses, blocking, balance Part 2: Composition; flow, focus, direction Part 3: The passage of time; rhythm, beats, manga-to-gif Part 4: Communicating the abstract; expression, costume, and storytelling To begin with, I would like all of you to read the following. I want you to read it from start to finish without looking at any other text or referencing the unaltered original. As you read, think about what you're seeing and form ideas about it. Feel free to post any thoughts you have before I follow up with my commentary. I want everyone to just absorb this first without any  As an aside, it seems unbelievable, but coloring in 10 pages literally took about two hours. Anyway, in case you were wondering, I decided to exclude the first few pages of the chapter from this analysis because I don't like them for their story content.      
Xibanya fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 04:00
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That is ridiculously cute as gently caress still and yes, the story of the boys delivering milk is still completely told despite no words
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Apr 17, 2015 04:43
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The characters also possess distinct profiles and clear body language. Even with the details obscured and the dialogue cut out, I (who have only just started this series and not hit this scene yet) never lost track of who was doing what.
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Apr 17, 2015 05:01
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In other words, Toriyama actually understands he's working in a visual medium.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:14
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I also read a similar look at some panels showing one of Goku's fights at the Tenkaichi Budokai that showed off how Toriyama was adding a feeling of motion and time passing both across the page as a whole and through individual panels. That sounds like what you'll be pointing out in parts 2 and 3, so I look forward to your demonstrations there as well. In other words, Toriyama is an amazing mangaka and everyone should read both Dragonball and Dragonball Z, particularly if they have any interest in drawing comics or storyboards.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:22
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Xibanya posted:Toriyama Is An Artistic Genius, part 1.1: Poses and Blocking Can someone remind me what the gently caress happened to the rest of the island Kame house sat on? in this scene and when tambourine comes to gently caress with Yamcha there's like a field and cliffs there but by the time DBZ starts it's just one tiny litlle circular island with the house on it?
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Apr 17, 2015 06:25
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It's a different island, Kame House is always the one patch of land.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:29
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Can someone remind me what the gently caress happened to the rest of the island Kame house sat on? in this scene and when tambourine comes to gently caress with Yamcha there's like a field and cliffs there but by the time DBZ starts it's just one tiny litlle circular island with the house on it? Roshi moved Kame House off the island while training Krillin and Goku.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:29
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Can someone remind me what the gently caress happened to the rest of the island Kame house sat on? in this scene and when tambourine comes to gently caress with Yamcha there's like a field and cliffs there but by the time DBZ starts it's just one tiny litlle circular island with the house on it? This is a different Kame House. Or possibly the same only transported by capsule. e;f,b
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Apr 17, 2015 06:29
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poo poo I should rewatch/read Dragon Ball, I forgot about the training island.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:31
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Join me on my quest, Zen Master. I'm only on episode 5. Speaking of which, SatansBestBuddy posted:This is a different Kame House. Or possibly the same only transported by capsule.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:36
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From what I can remember, Dragon Ball had an old world sort of feel to it despite the modern cities and the technology present. The fighting tournament gives the strongest feeling.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:50
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Bad Seafood posted:Chalk up Capsule Corp as the first instance of "I knew a bit about Dragon Ball going in, but I didn't know that." Glad to see someone finally one-upped George Jetson's briefcase car he never uses. Capsules are a crazy technology in the series that the characters and us the audience take for granted. The advantages offered through that type of miniaturization are almost limitless. Instead of a car hauler moving 10 cars, you can move a thousand on a single freight truck. Instead taking a house, slicing it in half, and putting it on two trucks with some oversized load escorts to move across the country, put it in a capsule and take it along in your pocket. Take a room full of secret documents with you by storing them in a capsule. Or more grisly, buy a capsule car, put the body of someone you killed in the car, seal it in a capsule, and bury the capsule in a box in the wilderness. Capsule tech is also an interesting and fun idea that you could build a whole series around. Make it a rare and forgotten technology that few have access to, have a hero with various weapons that were sealed in capsules on his person, he fights other people who have found the capsules and their respective weapons or magic items, etc. Or have a character invent this technology and explore how it changes the world, or how people try to steal it or seal it away to protect their hold on the economy. Or do a harem or romance story where the protagonist frees a girl from a capsule. For anyone else, coming up with Capsule tech means they've finally thought of an idea to start their fledgling manga career. For Toriyama it's a Tuesday and a neat little wrinkle he throws in to his manga.
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Apr 17, 2015 06:51
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Toriyama Is An Artistic Genius, part 1.2: Clarity Part 1.1: Introduction and Pictures One thing that is immediately noticeable when reading the altered Dragonball pages that I posted above is that what is happening in the sequence of events depicted is very clear. The reason why I blocked in the characters for nearly an entire chapter instead of cherry-picking the most exemplary samples from various chapters is that I wanted to show that Toriyama establishes clarity and then maintains it continuously. Clarity is enormously important in any visual medium, but comics must be particularly clear because they are so abstract. The reader must take in a static unmoving series of drawings and translate them into a sequence of events that moves forward in time. If the page is confusing, the artist risks having the reader skim over the jumble and miss key details or worse, having the reader lose interest and abandon the comic. Clarity is established by the comic's creator through a series of decisions on how they want to tell their story. In Scott McCloud's "Making Comics," he writes that there are five ways to establish clarity in a comic - choice of moment, choice of frame, choice of image, choice of word, and choice of flow. For now, let's look at choice of image, though which the comic creator aims to "clearly and quickly evoke the appearance of characters, objects, environments, and symbols." And clarity is particularly important for someone making a shonen manga because the paper it's printed on is utter poo poo. I happen to have a Shonen Jump that I bought when I was in Japan in October 2013, and the paper is so grainy and awful and it's also some non-white color, so as a result the blacks look gray and the whites look slightly less gray. Weirdly enough it's hard to take a picture that truly shows how loving terrible the print quality is, although maybe it's my iphone doing some sort of post processing automatically or something.  Look at that poo poo paper. Just look at it. Identity of Forms In Concept and Composition, the author, Fritz Henning, writes quote:Of all the conditions necessary for quick identification, shape is of particular significance. If the shape is not clear it is hard to recognize...Any overlapped and cropped form should not be so mutilated as to suffer loss of identity...This does not mean that every part of a realistic picture must be boiled-out and made specific. Indeed, not. Vagueness and lack of definition can incite appeal. A viewer armed with sufficient visual cues is usually ready to conjure his own recognizable image. What causes trouble are those elements in a picture that are rendered with some definition, but fall short when it comes to purpose and identity because of their placement. The book helpfully provides some pictures, which I captured with my cell phone.  (in other words, you don't have to see the whole thing to know what it is) What's this?  "What is happening overall is not immediately apparent." Surprise, it's oxen pulling a plow.  Action Since we've established that it's important in a comic to be as clear as possible, we know it's good to be so clear that the reader can tell what the object your drawing actually is (oxen and a plow and not an amorphous blob, for example) but it's also important that the reader can also clearly detect the action and if possible the emotion of the characters depicted. Because the characters are less detailed that actual flesh and blood humans, we can't pick up on all the subtleties that we would if we were in the room with a real person or even watching a live action film. At this point it's better to sacrifice realism for clarity, and that means that actions and emotions should be exaggerated -- essentially the author has to "translate" what's "actually happening" into something we can understand. Drawing Dynamic Comics by Andy Smith provides some examples of realistic poses vs. unambiguously clear poses:   It's also important to note the balance of a pose because it can also communicate a character's emotional state. From Concept and Composition:  Examples of unbalance being used deliberately to invoke a mood:  So a character who has a symmetrical or stable pose has a sturdy and stable mental state, while a character striking an asymmetrical or unbalanced pose has an unstable or emotional mental state. I don't have any pretty pictures here for this since this is also rooted in cinema and seems pretty self-evident, but characters' positions relative to each other also tell us a lot about their emotions, inner lives, and relationships. Anyhow, with that out of the way, let's have a look at the altered Dragonball pages again. In the lower right panel (the first one sequentially in which I blacked out the characters) you can see right away exactly who is who. Goku and Krillin are totally distinct in part thanks to their wildly different hairstyles. Also notice that Roshi's sunglasses here add extra distinction to his outline. They and his brow ridge distinguish the top of his head from that of the also-bald Krillin. He also carries a staff - I filled in any object the characters were holding because the objects also form part of their form. The staff Roshi holds serves a number of purposes here. Most obviously it gives him a more distinct shape, but less obviously it gives him something to do with his hands, allowing him to have poses other than just sticking his arms out or keeping his arms at his side or any other number of boring poses. I also want to draw your attention here:  In the top left panel, we see Roshi assume a stance where he faces us (the point of view of Goku and Krillin) head on with his feet directly under his shoulders. This is in contrast to the pose he's had so far, which has been to lean forward. His head-on pose is stable and symmetrical, indicating he feels a strong conviction. Now let's look at the bottom panel. Goku and Krillin have similar poses, but they're subtly different. Goku is more upright and symmetrical, while Krillin has a bit of a lean going on. Well surprise surprise,  They go get milk from a bull. Is he selling his wife's breast milk or something? Ew. Anyway, this new throwaway character has absolutely got a distinct silhouette even though when we first see him he's holding crates of milk. Also notice the use of foreground/background to put us in the shoes of characters with whom we must identify. In the 2nd panel, we know right away that Krillin is thinking about Goku because Krillin's head is dead-center and Goku is tiny, ie, behind him by some distance. In the bottom left panel of what I marked as page 3, we now have Goku and Krillin both in the foreground looking at Roshi talking with the bull. It gives us the impression that we're distantly overhearing a grown-up conversation that we're not quite party to. I plan to discuss the composition of these panels in more detail in a later entry, but you can see these things just from the silhouettes.  Here's another example of balance vs. inbalance. Roshi and Goku are standing straight up, while Krillin is running at them full tilt, obviously in a more emotional state. (His mouth is also hilarious.)  Ahahahahahaha.  Check out Krillin - he's so shocked that his pose is once again thrown into unbalance - his arms fly out while his head tucks in. In the next panel Goku stands up straight while Krillin leans in to shout. Wanna point out that Roshi is always distinct from the random monk throwaway character because Roshi has a staff. Also notice Roshi's poise while crossing the ravine and the quicksand compared with his charges. OK, so that's the rundown on how Toriyama communicates clarity through identity of forms and poses. Coming up in part two: directing the eye, composition and flow.
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Apr 17, 2015 07:02
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NowonSA posted:Capsules are a crazy technology in the series that the characters and us the audience take for granted. The advantages offered through that type of miniaturization are almost limitless. Instead of a car hauler moving 10 cars, you can move a thousand on a single freight truck. Instead taking a house, slicing it in half, and putting it on two trucks with some oversized load escorts to move across the country, put it in a capsule and take it along in your pocket. Take a room full of secret documents with you by storing them in a capsule. Or more grisly, buy a capsule car, put the body of someone you killed in the car, seal it in a capsule, and bury the capsule in a box in the wilderness.
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Apr 17, 2015 07:09
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As an aside, I want to point out that the poses in this: communicate virtually nothing. Notice the lack of instability in the body language of B^U, even in the 2nd to last panel when he's getting the lowdown from the doctor - he's ramrod straight! In fact his back is still totally straight up and down when he sees his girlfriendu in the hospital bed or whatever. He just hover hands her while he's there. Oh yeah and dig that tangent line in the 2nd panel with the pointing finger. But that's like shooting fish in a barrel. I also want to show a different example of a comic with some unclear storytelling. Now I don't keep crap comics in my home, but I thought I'd try to find an example of something I thought was inferior to Toriyama's work that wasn't something obviously bad like Rob Liefeld or Greg Land or something. Well, I found this in Sandman (which is critically acclaimed to boot!):  Where are these characters in relation to each other? How long is this actually taking to transpire?  What's the deal with the top three panels there? I guess we're supposed to be ramping up the emotional intensity by zooming in on the lead's face, but his expression doesn't match. Also, once again, where are these characters in relation to each other? We have to go back a ways to even see what the baddie actually looks like outside of these zoomed in fragments. Also what is even happening action-wise in the last three panels? Now don't get me wrong, Sandman is a good comic, but it's cluttered as all get out and the artists made some decisions that I think were suboptimal.
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Apr 17, 2015 07:22
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NowonSA posted:For anyone else, coming up with Capsule tech means they've finally thought of an idea to start their fledgling manga career. For Toriyama it's a Tuesday and a neat little wrinkle he throws in to his manga. Another good example would be the pterodactyl who's sort of the first bad guy of the series. Comes out of nowhere, kidnaps Bulma, says a few words, then takes to the skies. At no point is the existence or credibility of a presumably extinct predator capable of human speech ever questioned by Goku or Bulma, so consequently I don't question it either. Another author might feel the need to address to the viewer the existence of such things, but Dragon Ball just lets the concept speak for itself. Talking dinosaurs exist and neither of our protagonists are in any way surprised or startled by this beyond the fact that it wants to eat them. Takeshi Koike is someone else who does this a lot and I love him for it, like how Little Deyzuna in Redline gets super strength when he cries just because that's how it works; no elaboration.
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Apr 17, 2015 07:43
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Covok posted:Holy poo poo, Yamcha is wining a fight. It's filler, but, still, it's unprecedented. This was always a favorite little bit of filler, because going by its logic, it means Yamcha magically became stronger than Cell despite having canonically stopped training as a fighter after the Cell Games, on the basis of 1) In filler, villains are causing trouble in hell, Goku and Pikkon go down and Pikkon trashes Cell (in Perfect form, maybe even Super Perfect form) in like six attacks. 2) Further filler has Pikkon fight Olibu (the blonde) in a tournament. Obliu loses, but it's even for a bit, at least. 3) And then that bit of filler where Yamcha effortlessly beats Obliu and another guy. Ergo, by the logic of filler, Yamcha is now stronger than Cell.
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Apr 17, 2015 09:20
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Filler always makes thing dumb. Tien, Chaozu and Yamcha manage to beat the Ginyu Force after being on the King Kai's planet for less than a week (they arrive there when Goku's en route to Namek). I think Tien even uses the multi form technique, which makes it even more stupid.
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Apr 17, 2015 11:28
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mmkay posted:Filler always makes thing dumb. Tien, Chaozu and Yamcha manage to beat the Ginyu Force after being on the King Kai's planet for less than a week (they arrive there when Goku's en route to Namek). I think Tien even uses the multi form technique, which makes it even more
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Apr 17, 2015 12:05
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That break down of TFS's History of Trunks, huh. Masenko-ha!
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Apr 17, 2015 12:06
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Oon5KjNSM
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Apr 17, 2015 21:39
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Man, Gohan needs more protein in his diet.
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Apr 17, 2015 21:45
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The art and animation look very very good.
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Apr 17, 2015 21:45
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Did Mai say that Trunks was her boyfriend?
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Apr 17, 2015 21:51
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Apr 17, 2015 22:06
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im so glad to see what they can do with modern animation lol
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Apr 17, 2015 22:11
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Raxivace posted:Did Mai say that Trunks was her boyfriend? Yes. Yes she did.
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Apr 17, 2015 22:18
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Some Numbers posted:Yes. Yes she did. Isn't she like 40?
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Apr 17, 2015 22:27
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Covok posted:Isn't she like 40? But she was deaged! This is a horrible plot line that doesn't really need to exist, and only exists to shoe horn a lame call back in.
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Apr 17, 2015 22:29
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Some Numbers posted:Yes. Yes she did. Oh dear
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Apr 17, 2015 22:30
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