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Wasn't the "Mwahaha we are so evil we want to kill all the jews and drink their spinal fluid bwahaha" clause of the hamas charter phased out a while ago or am I just misremembering things? Either way it comes up all the time as a justification for all the sinister poo poo the state does to palestinians. What happened to "actions, not words"?
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Apr 13, 2015 06:22
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   manul
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Apr 13, 2015 12:50
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Avshalom posted:
I approve this post.
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Apr 13, 2015 13:36
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murphyslaw posted:Wasn't the "Mwahaha we are so evil we want to kill all the jews and drink their spinal fluid bwahaha" clause of the hamas charter phased out a while ago or am I just misremembering things? hamas leadership has claimed that the charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons". later hamas documents and statements have clearly contradicted the charter in many places including its position on israel. if youre pro-palestine this means hamas has abandoned the positions stated in the charter long ago and are clearly paragons of peace and harmony now, but kept the charter around because ?????. if you're pro-israel, this means that the charter is still true and therefore everything they say that contradicts it is a dastardly lie meant to lure israel into a false sense of security, but luckily the stupid muslims are torpedoing their own lies by keeping around documentation of their real intentions because ?????. the real answer is probably somewhere in the middle - hamas has both violent factions and pragmatic factions, and while the pragmatic factions currently dominate policy overall and base their foreign policy around reality rather than fantasy, they need to keep some non-flowery rhetoric around to keep the violent factions in line. the charter, as a historical document the violent faction had an obvious hand in creating and which already exists, is a particularly convenient since it doesnt dictate current policy and they dont have to write anything new.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:27
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Hamas still has to run a functioning government in Gaza, after all. They have to worry about elections just as much as Bibi in the Knesset.
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Apr 13, 2015 16:39
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Main Paineframe posted:hamas leadership has claimed that the charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons". later hamas documents and statements have clearly contradicted the charter in many places including its position on israel. To simplify: the charter itself doesn't affect their actions in any real way, what they're going to do is going to be dictated by internal politics and the external situation. However, changing the charter would essentially tick off an internal political battle between the wings of the party: it would be a proxy battle for who is in charge. There is no reason for them to start such an internal fight without a reason: they won't get anything if they change the charter. Presumably if an actual peace deal was offered that included changing the charter they'd be willing, because the peace deal itself would be ticking off that exact same battle so you can just change the charter at the same time, and peace would have a visible benefit for going through that battle.
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Apr 13, 2015 16:54
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Job Truniht posted:Hamas still has to run a functioning government in Gaza, after all. They have to worry about elections just as much as Bibi in the Knesset. No they don't. Main Paineframe posted:
Just as a quibble, the division isn't between violent and pragmatic factions (because all HAMAS factions are violent) but between factions who want to destroy Israel and those who are willing to settle for an Independent Palestine.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:46
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Like the settlements weren't bad enough already : http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/04/13/israel-settlement-agriculture-harms-palestinian-children-0 Time for a boycott ?
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Apr 13, 2015 19:41
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There are already significant boycotts of settlements.
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Apr 14, 2015 01:23
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Groen posted:Like the settlements weren't bad enough already : http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/04/13/israel-settlement-agriculture-harms-palestinian-children-0 Oh come on, those working conditions are par for the developing world. Palestine is clearly developing world, while Israel is a developed nation; these facts cause great resentment within the Palestinian communities, as they feel entitled to the benefits of development without the sense of responsibility towards the capital accumulation necessary in order to achieve self-sufficient growth. These Israeli practices should be lauded as a model for sustainable growth in the developing world, not have their effort derailed by providing tinder for antisemites the region over. This human rights watch organization, how are they funded, again?
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Apr 14, 2015 06:49
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You can't accumulate capital or achieve self-sufficient growth when someone is stealing your land, resources, taxes and freedom. This should be pretty obvious. See, people who are against apartheid are generally against colonialism too. I don't know if it's apparent if you adhere to Jewish supremacism.
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 07:40
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Child labor is alright, most the world does it, why single out Israel?! 
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Apr 14, 2015 07:52
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Fizzil posted:Child labor is alright, most the world does it, why single out Israel?! Most of the world does it to their citizens, Israel employs its colonial subjects.
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Apr 14, 2015 08:15
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My Imaginary GF posted:This human rights watch organization, how are they funded, again? Wow, calm down with the antisemitic dogwhistles, dude.
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Apr 14, 2015 09:41
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Amnesty International? Heh more like Antisemitry International am I right?
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Apr 14, 2015 11:11
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My Imaginary GF posted:these facts cause great resentment within the Palestinian communities, as they feel entitled to the benefits of development without the sense of responsibility towards the capital accumulation necessary in order to achieve self-sufficient growth. Please explain how you accumulate capital in an occupied state that confiscates taxes and prohibits both external and internal investment. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 16:53
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I'm still waiting for theimmigrant or kaal to explain how those magical apartments that palestinians can let to israelis are going to be built when they can't manage to rebuild a single demolished house. I'm going to be waiting for a while I imagine.
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Apr 16, 2015 01:39
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Why don't all these plantation workers offer to do paid work for their masters?
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Apr 16, 2015 01:42
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Lum_ posted:Please explain how you accumulate capital in an occupied state that confiscates taxes and prohibits both external and internal investment. You kill people so that the capital concentrates. The black death was great for proto-capitalism!
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Apr 16, 2015 09:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:Oh come on, those working conditions are par for the developing world. Palestine is clearly developing world, while Israel is a developed nation; these facts cause great resentment within the Palestinian communities, as they feel entitled to the benefits of development without the sense of responsibility towards the capital accumulation necessary in order to achieve self-sufficient growth. These Israeli practices should be lauded as a model for sustainable growth in the developing world, not have their effort derailed by providing tinder for antisemites the region over. Mmh, yes, what a model. Developed nations should move their armies into underdeveloped nations, steal their most arable soil and their water reserves and use their population as cheap labor to fuel development at home. I know it sounds a lot like classic colonization but the difference is that ANTI-SEMITES.
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Apr 16, 2015 10:07
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Apr 16, 2015 14:04
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and behold, a mottled horse
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Apr 16, 2015 20:32
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I know MIGF is a troll gimmick account but come on, that last post was just too much. Claiming that the problem's exaggerated, or misrepresented, or bad but not so bad as Other Thing - those are the classic ways of deflection, but embracing an obviously horrible thing with transparent fakery cannot be believed as a sincere attempt to win over critics. Even other supporters of Israel would probably have to shy away from his response or disavow MIGF to be taken seriously. At this point I have to believe his goal is actually to stir up distaste for Israel by portraying a caricature of an imperialist zionist, and otherwise muddy the waters of discussion to prevent actual Israel supporters from presenting their case since everyone's too busy knocking over his straw man. Even someone who held such reprehensible beliefs would know to camouflage them better and save the really reprehensible stuff for the base when outsiders aren't listening. Dolash fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 21:37
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You'd think that, but just today Arutz 7 posted that labelling goods that originate from settlements is literally the Holocaust http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/194163#.VTBInSHBzRY quote:In response, a senior Israeli diplomat told the EU "labeling products from Judea and Samaria is a yellow badge," referencing the "Jude" stars the Nazis forced Jews to wear during the Holocaust. Thursday marks Holocaust Remembrance Day. In comparison, MIGF saying things like "colonialism and child labor is a good deal for the little barbarians" is pretty mild. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 00:42
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Ultramega posted:I'm still waiting for theimmigrant or kaal to explain how those magical apartments that palestinians can let to israelis are going to be built when they can't manage to rebuild a single demolished house. Israelis aren't going to be interested in leasing magical apartments in the first place. That'd be a terrible idea. Palestinians should just sell the land in a mix of private and public land deals, and then resettle in Egypt or Lebanon. Israel could pay way above the market rate and it'd still be cheaper than continuing an endless war - heck the US would probably be happy to provide plenty of the money itself in the form of no-interest loans, and it'd be a lot easier to figure out resettlement issues with the surrounding nations when the candidates aren't penniless refugees. Average annual income in the West Bank and Gaza Strip is less than $2,000, and there's 4.5 million people living there. It would cost Israel $225 billion to pay each and every one of them $50,000 - 25 years income - for their land. And for the vast majority of Palestinians their land consists of hardly anything at all. For the few wealthy members with lots of land and government connections, they could pursue a private sale or simply not sell at all. All parties get what they need in a modern Louisiana Purchase. This is, in fact, precisely the kind of market process that was going on 80 years ago, before radicals decided that they preferred bloodshed. Eventually this will be the peaceful resolution to the problem simply due to the financial realities, but since it remains politically nonviable it'll probably be another few decades before it happens. Kaal fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 07:47
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Patrick Spens posted:No they don't. Yes they do. According to zionists, these terrorists just come out of the womb of an anti-semite. In reality, these bodies have to keep themselves functioning. You really think these guys don't have to deal with elections, government budgets, and social outreach? This is also is/was true for Hezbollah. They're far too elaborate at this point to be called terrorist organizations.
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Apr 17, 2015 07:56
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Job Truniht posted:Yes they do. According to zionists, these terrorists just come out of the womb of an anti-semite. In reality, these bodies have to keep themselves functioning. You really think these guys don't have to deal with elections, government budgets, and social outreach? This is also is/was true for Hezbollah. They're far too elaborate at this point to be called terrorist organizations. Well, Hamas doesn't deal with elections—or a budget!—any more, though it really was Abbas who ended Palestinian democracy in the first place.
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Apr 17, 2015 07:59
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Hamas had to deal with elections right up until Israel made elections effectively impossible.
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Apr 17, 2015 08:06
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Kaal posted:resettle in Lebanon There was a 15 year civil war over this, it's not going to happen.
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Apr 17, 2015 08:15
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Hamas had to deal with elections right up until Israel made elections effectively impossible. Not really though, Abu Mazen beat them to the punch when he appointed Salam Fayyad by Royal Prerogative.
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Apr 17, 2015 08:19
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hypnorotic posted:There was a 15 year civil war over this, it's not going to happen. Well certainly some would want to go to Lebanon to join their families there, but even if Lebanon refused any UN sweeteners and rejected a wave of middle-class immigrants, there'd be plenty of countries who wouldn't. Talk to Jordan, heck talk to Iran. I'd say that there's a good chance that using money to resolve the issue would be more effective than rockets and missiles. Certainly it would be better for the average Palestinian who just wants to send their kids to school, have a decent and safe place to live, and a job that can support a good life. None of those things are really in the offing for them right now, unless they're willing to get involved in the militia politics. Kaal fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 08:31
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Aside from the political issues (no Arab country will let Palestinians resettle en masse in their own countries to make Israel's colonization efforts easier, that is why they are still in refugee camps throughout the region generations after the 1948 war) there's the minor problem that ethnic cleansing of an occupied people is
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Apr 17, 2015 08:38
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Lum_ posted:Aside from the political issues (no Arab country will let Palestinians resettle en masse to make Israel's colonization efforts easier, that is why they are still in refugee camps throughout the region generations after the 1948 war) there's the minor problem that ethnic cleansing of an occupied people is Arab countries don't do anything about their refugee camps because the refugees are dirt poor and have nothing to offer the government that hasn't already been stolen from them. The governments don't want to take responsibility for those people since they see them as a liability. There's a big difference between that and a group that has a bunch of wealth and resettlement oversight backed by the international community. And buying land at hugely inflated prices and offering to resettle them hardly sounds like a war crime to me. Compare that outcome with the probable outcome of the status quo: Two or three more generations of low-level warfare, continued erosion of the Palestinian people, culture and economy, inexorable expansion of Israeli settlements and walls, decades of regional tension and international conflict, and the eventual resolution of the conflict as Palestine simply becomes a permanent UN aid camp. I'd say that the problems of using money to resolve the conflict seem much more manageable in that perspective. I wish it had been done back the 1930s, and I wish that it were done now. Kaal fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Apr 17, 2015 |
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Apr 17, 2015 08:44
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Well, if there's one thing you can count on in the Middle East, it's a willingness to put aside prejudice and sectarian grudges in order to embrace a sensible solution that benefits all parties.
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Apr 17, 2015 09:14
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So you see all of the folllowing things being feasible: A) Israel is going to pay the equivalent of its annual GDP to Palestinians B) Palestinians are going to dismantle their national identity C) And not give a poo poo about their homes and communities D) And accept some lump sum regardless of amount of ownership E) And somehow Arab countries are going to accept millions of people in and let go of all the ideological issue. Probable outcome is a single state or two state solution imposed on Israel wheb US abandons the conflict. Palestinians aren't going anywhere, Israel isn't willing to pay for anything they can steal.
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Apr 17, 2015 10:01
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Kaal posted:Arab countries don't do anything about their refugee camps because the refugees are dirt poor and have nothing to offer the government that hasn't already been stolen from them. The governments don't want to take responsibility for those people since they see them as a liability. There's a big difference between that and a group that has a bunch of wealth and resettlement oversight backed by the international community. And buying land at hugely inflated prices and offering to resettle them hardly sounds like a war crime to me. I'm sure that if the international community actually decided to pour funds into Palestinians (and the relocation thereof is a natural consequence, I guess?), they'd be better off, yes. I mean, if you could promote that kind of unity and goodwill towards Palestinians, that's really the only thing that could be done, yeah? It's not like it's the duty of the international community to prevent the war crimes that are currently being perpetrated against Palestinians. All we can do for them is commit more war crimes but with better intent, I swear.
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Apr 17, 2015 13:00
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Avshalom posted:
i made a little "aww" noise when i saw these pictures
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Apr 17, 2015 13:33
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My neighbors won't accept my generous offer for their house, so I guess I have no choice but to murder them. God, they are just so unreasonable.
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Apr 17, 2015 13:36
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VitalSigns posted:My neighbors won't accept my generous offer for their house, so I guess I have no choice but to murder them. God, they are just so unreasonable. For this analogy to work there would have to have been an offer made...
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Apr 17, 2015 13:44
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As someone pointed out, Israel seems perfectly fine with just annexing whatever territory they want because the consequences are nonexistent.
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Apr 17, 2015 14:38
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