CarrKnight posted:Okay, let's try this. Can you go through 3 examples of "bad" cultural appropriation (you can dig previously posted examples obviously) explaining who are the victims, why, and how should the exchange be shaped differently without altering the existing social inequalities and without assuming away people general ignorance of what they are appropriating? This is pretty much a rigged game, since you're demanding that people being informed not be part of the solution. But here's one example- upscale ethnic-cuisine restaurants like PF Chang's that are owned by white people are considered more authentic than downscale restaurants that are owned by people from the actual culture in question. This is appropriating because it involves defining what real ethnic food is for the people of that culture. The victims, then, are everyone within those cultures, especially those who want to make a living making food. I don't know what the gently caress your little "exchange be shaped differently" thing is, but the solutions would be to get food writers and restaurant critics and so on- the opinion makers- to stop using the term "authentic", and also the companies that sell via the term "authentic", though this is less practical. Now, if "authenticity" as a concept is contingent on the existing social inequalities or if this assumes away ignorance, well, the game was well and truly rigged and gently caress you for doing it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 15:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 10:32 |
|
Effectronica posted:Here's where you say things that would make you sound like you're suffering from a deep depression, if you actually meant them. no  big enough
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:05
|
|
|
quote:This is pretty much a rigged game, since you're demanding that people being informed not be part of the solution. But cultural exchange will happen in this world, with existing inequalities and with real people who tend to be ignorant. In fact, when it comes to other cultures, you are by definition ignorant about them. Assume ignorance. I really think it's the right setup to ask the question. quote:But here's one example- upscale ethnic-cuisine restaurants like PF Chang's that are owned by white people are considered more authentic than downscale restaurants that are owned by people from the actual culture in question. This is appropriating because it involves defining what real ethnic food is for the people of that culture. I can add to this. As you can tell from my grammar, I am a foreigner. Italian actually. So in Rome from time to time you do hear American tourists complain. Say, when they ask why there is no meat in their parmiggiana, waiters know nothing of marinara or alfredo sauce, baristas bring you milk when you order latte and so on. Clearly in some tourists there is a wrong, appropriated, idea of italian cuisine which just isn't true (luckily in this case since Rome's greatest contribution to Italian food is probably tripe and lard). But should we really expect them to know as much as I do about Italian culture and food before they are allowed to eat? It's weird to say it but that attitude would be intolerably ethnocentric towards the poor dominant Americans. And so Italy has its authenticity and you guys keep your Chicago stuffed pizza (which I actually confess being a family favorite). CarrKnight fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Apr 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:26
|
|
CarrKnight posted:I am honestly not trying to prove a point or some crazy "gotcha!". No, I can't tell from your grammar, actually. The victims are people whose restaurants are considered inauthentic and unworthy, because although people are not bound to put a premium on "authenticity", they still do so. They are the people who are having what their cuisine actually is dictated to them from outside. I'm trying and struggling to understand why so many people think that there's nothing between total control and total freedom, that if it's not being said at the point of a gun you are always free to disregard it completely. Furthermore, you cut out the part where I said that the solution is to stop promoting "authenticity".
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:32
|
|
|
To be honest I find the food at PFChang's to be pretty tasty and am not concerned that it's different from chinese food as served in China, which in some cases I also found tasty. How deep a sin am I committing by eating at PFChang's? Help me, CA thread. Effectronica are you aware that lovely family owned chinese restaurants, though owned by actual chiense people, are almost always not in fact serving food as it was prepared in their motherland? Something to consider. Additionally, I had authentic microwave waffles in a restaurant in Shenzhen once. They were just ok. wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Apr 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:40
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:No, I can't tell from your grammar, actually.  Effectronica posted:
It's just that American customers like American taste. It's why you guys put origano in your tomato sauce. Why should people pay the same to have something that has been tuned for a foreign market? Nobody is forcing people who prefer authentic food not to have it (and the US is blessed with authentic restaurants) but if they are too few as a customer base they need to do it on their own. It's a step-down from just walking down the street and buying it to go, sure, but only because there aren't enough people to keep that business going. quote:Furthermore, you cut out the part where I said that the solution is to stop promoting "authenticity". In the US Parmiggiana is chicken + some knockoff parmesan. In Italy nowadays Parmiggiana is fried eggplant + parmiggiano reggiano. But if you ask my grandmother Parmiggiana is actually baked eggplant + mozzarella, which was what people in the south thought people in Parma would eat. So who has the claim of authenticity? Parmiggiano does taste better than just mozzarella with eggplant, which is why it is prevalent now. But you could argue that it isn't authentic either. And probably you can go further back and find a more authentic recipe still. Is there really a point in claiming somebody is not authentic at this point? CarrKnight fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Apr 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:41
|
|
|
Who could possibly believe that PF Changs is more 'authentic' than a hole in the wall run by immigrants?? People prefer PF Changs because it is well designed, is perceived as being clean and safe, and they know and prefer Chinese-American food, not because they perceive it as being more 'authentic.'
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:45
|
|
|
American Chinese food is a distinct style of cuisine that was developed by Chinese immigrants to appeal to American consumers. PF Changs is authentic American Chinese food. I don't think the existence of Ameicsn Chinese food confuses anyone with any experience with actual Chinese food. It wasn't some culinary norm imposed by white society, it was invented by Chinese to appeal to an American palate.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:51
|
|
wateroverfire posted:To be honest I find the food at PFChang's to be pretty tasty and am not concerned that it's different from chinese food as served in China, which in some cases I also found tasty. How deep a sin am I committing by eating at PFChang's? Help me, CA thread. You commit unpardonable sins just by existing, so it's hard to disentangle the sin from eating from the neutral act of eating at a particular restaurant. You also willfully refuse to read. CarrKnight posted:thanks There isn't. Authenticity is a trap and one that is often complicit in racial and ethnic oppression, so the solution is to get people to stop calling things that.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:52
|
|
Miltank posted:Who could possibly believe that PF Changs is more 'authentic' than a hole in the wall run by immigrants?? People prefer PF Changs because it is well designed, is perceived as being clean and safe, and they know and prefer Chinese-American food, not because they perceive it as being more 'authentic.' Fascinating. I'm glad you have such a pleasant social circle. JeffersonClay posted:American Chinese food is a distinct style of cuisine that was developed by Chinese immigrants to appeal to American consumers. PF Changs is authentic American Chinese food. I don't think the existence of Ameicsn Chinese food confuses anyone with any experience with actual Chinese food. It wasn't some culinary norm imposed by white society, it was invented by Chinese to appeal to an American palate. So would it kill you to read what people actually wrote? Like, imagine someone is holding an intermediate sociology textbook to your head and demands that you read something and repeat it back to them. Do you melt like the Wicked Witch of the West?
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:56
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:There isn't. Authenticity is a trap and one that is often complicit in racial and ethnic oppression, so the solution is to get people to stop calling things that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 16:58
|
|
|
I have never been to PF Changs but they are building one in my city so I'll probably try it soon.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:02
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:So would it kill you to read what people actually wrote? Like, imagine someone is holding an intermediate sociology textbook to your head and demands that you read something and repeat it back to them. Do you melt like the Wicked Witch of the West? You wrote: quote:The victims are people whose restaurants are considered inauthentic and unworthy, because although people are not bound to put a premium on "authenticity", they still do so. They are the people who are having what their cuisine actually is dictated to them from outside. Which is totally wrong; American Chinese food was created by Chinese immigrants. Nobody dictated to them what authentic Chinese food should be--they chose to modify actual Chinese cuisine to appeal to American consumers. Imagine someone is holding your own posts up to your head and demands that you repeat them back. Do you just drop another shitpost?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:18
|
|
|
CarrKnight posted:Agreed. Unrelated, but PF Chang's isn't even American Chinese, they have pad thai, spring rolls, and sushi.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:28
|
|
|
Meet Phillip Chiang, appropriator of Asian culture. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:31
|
|
|
PF Chang's seems toney to me. Maybe it's just the name.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:32
|
|
|
It's the founders' names, romanized slightly differently.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:35
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:You wrote: I'm describing something that is happening now, not something that happened about 150 years ago, you beetle of a man. Squinty posted:Meet Phillip Chiang, appropriator of Asian culture. It's owned by ConAgra now, and I'm not even saying that PF Chang's is responsible. I was using it as an example for something that is driven primarily by food criticism.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:38
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:I'm describing something that is happening now, not something that happened about 150 years ago, you beetle of a man. ConAgra doesn't own PF Chang's, its owned by a private equity firm. Good to know that minorities getting rich by selling their successful businesses to white people is a bad thing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:47
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:I'm describing something that is happening now, not something that happened about 150 years ago, you beetle of a man. What was happening 150 years ago: Chinese people adapting traditional Chinese recipes to appeal to the American palate. What is happening now: Chinese people adapting traditional Chinese recipes to appeal to the American palate. What is never happening: Chinese people being forced to abandon culinary traditions due to food criticism. Do you think Americans would be wolfing down thousand year eggs if not for the San fransisco chronicle's gushing reviews of chop suey in 1865?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
CarrKnight posted:Really? Because your example seems to show quite the opposite. That is the point you and rudatron are missing. It hasn't created a new "Buddhist like" culture. It has instead just attached the name of Buddhism to an already existing set of cultural practices in order to try to use the "authenticity" they perceive in traditional buddhism to gain cultural power in the majority culture. Everyone likes to think that the people that notice cultural appropriation are the ones hand wringing and trying to force exoticism, when actually it is the appropriators. The entire power of appropriation rests on convincing people that you are the heir to an exotic and "real" cultural tradition. It's why "core shamanism" brags about removing culture while encouraging the use of props from minority cultures.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:00
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:What was happening 150 years ago: Chinese people adapting traditional Chinese recipes to appeal to the American palate. I didn't say anything about being forced to abandon culinary traditions, you're inventing that as a strawman. I didn't say anything about how chop suey was bad, you're inventing that as a strawman. Soon, once my ascension is complete, compulsive liars such as yourself shall have your faces torn off by the silvery angels of joy and peace.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:01
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Liberace and Freddie Mercury. wham
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:10
|
|
|
CarrKnight posted:I am honestly not trying to prove a point or some crazy "gotcha!". Let me add something. We have 2 decent Chinese takeout places, and one nicer sitdown place, close to where I've lived the last 25 years. I've become friendly with the owners (who, of course, are always working at the stores). Over time I've come to learn that all three are Vietnamese, and came over during the boat people crisis. They're Vietnamese, selling (inauthentic but popular) Chinese food, in upstate NY. Who are the appropriators in this scenario? Who are they appropriating from, given that take out Chinese that you get in most of the US isn't anything like actual Chinese food, and that the people that own and run these places aren't Chinese. Pauline Kael fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Apr 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:15
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:I didn't say anything about being forced to abandon culinary traditions, you're inventing that as a strawman. I didn't say anything about how chop suey was bad, you're inventing that as a strawman. Soon, once my ascension is complete, compulsive liars such as yourself shall have your faces torn off by the silvery angels of joy and peace. Even by your own horrible standard, you're becoming unhinged. You think it might be time for a nap?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:16
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:I didn't say anything about being forced to abandon culinary traditions, you're inventing that as a strawman. I didn't say anything about how chop suey was bad, you're inventing that as a strawman. Soon, once my ascension is complete, compulsive liars such as yourself shall have your faces torn off by the silvery angels of joy and peace. Effectronica posted:The victims are people whose restaurants are considered inauthentic and unworthy, because although people are not bound to put a premium on "authenticity", they still do so. They are the people who are having what their cuisine actually is dictated to them from outside. Totally a strawman
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:20
|
|
|
I'd say that "inauthentic" Asian food has had pretty much the exact opposite effect, which shouldn't be surprising since that's why Chinese Americans started cooking "inauthentic" Chinese food for white folks in the first place. Do you think someone who likes the PF Chang's at the mall is somehow less likely to step inside a "real" Asian restaurant than someone who's only dining options were McDonald's, Burger King, or 河南燴面館? The existence of fake Asian food makes it easier for real Asians to sell real Asian food. This is a feature, not a bug
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:45
|
|
Pauline Kael posted:Even by your own horrible standard, you're becoming unhinged. You think it might be time for a nap? You're forty+ years old and started posting on this website. Why can't you have a more normal midlife crisis? Jarmak posted:Totally a strawman Yeah, it is. Do you not see any difference between saying what category something is and doing that thing? Granted, like most of the people in this thread, the only thing you care about is being seen to make a stand against the forces of barbarism.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:46
|
|
|
'Authenticity' is such a poseur word. I care that my food tastes good, not whether it's served by correctly-segregated minorities with Magnificent Headgear. My favorite sushi chef in DC (probably racist to eat sushi outside of Japan) is Mexican. Because I am not a theoryheaded racist like Effluent, I do not demand ethnic segregation in food preparation. Terrible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:55
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Magnificent Headgear You really ought to knock this off. Where does it even come from? Phantoms in your head. You have all the tiresome habits of a right-wing columnist, down to capitalized in-joke phrases that nobody cares about but you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:You're forty+ years old and started posting on this website. Why can't you have a more normal midlife crisis? You splitting hairs to try to claim that how your argument was framed wasn't precisely what you said even though the distinction has no impact on the argument being made against you is not what "straw man" or "liar" means
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:00
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:You're forty+ years old and started posting on this website. Why can't you have a more normal midlife crisis? You're worried about MY crisis? You really seem to be able to stake out the absolute worst position on any given topic, then get more and more strident as people call you out on it. Congratulations on being The Worst Poster, I guess
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:06
|
|
|
Pauline Kael posted:You're worried about MY crisis? Yeah, it's a bit rich when a forums Aspie who is trolled into apoplexy at the drop of a hat casts aspersions on the lives of others. Cultural appropriation, as a theory embraced by the ethnic fetishists here, is something exactly no one outside of the academy cares about.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:12
|
|
|
Most of academia rolls their eyes at CA hand wringing same as all humans capable of critical thinking.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:18
|
|
|
Miltank posted:Most of academia rolls their eyes at CA hand wringing same as all humans capable of critical thinking. It must be lonely, fighting a dubious battle with people who can't realize How Brilliant You Are for embracing some theory.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:32
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:^^^^^^^^^^^ The lovely joke has gone over so many heads it can't really be that lovely, can it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:49
|
|
|
Clipperton posted:no After having read several of ellectronica's posts, I am worried.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:50
|
|
|
Squinty posted:I'd say that "inauthentic" Asian food has had pretty much the exact opposite effect, which shouldn't be surprising since that's why Chinese Americans started cooking "inauthentic" Chinese food for white folks in the first place. Do you think someone who likes the PF Chang's at the mall is somehow less likely to step inside a "real" Asian restaurant than someone who's only dining options were McDonald's, Burger King, or 河南燴面館? The existence of fake Asian food makes it easier for real Asians to sell real Asian food. This is a feature, not a bug No, it's a crime against humanity for which the perpetrators must be -punished-. *i almost went and tried to find out if I could translate Cultural Appropriation into 他们中文, but I realized that the proper translation would just be 什么？
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:56
|
|
Miltank posted:Most of academia rolls their eyes at CA hand wringing same as all humans capable of critical thinking. The fun part of any thread like this is when the culture warriors start letting their real feelings slip. TheImmigrant posted:Yeah, it's a bit rich when a forums Aspie who is trolled into apoplexy at the drop of a hat casts aspersions on the lives of others. Cultural appropriation, as a theory embraced by the ethnic fetishists here, is something exactly no one outside of the academy cares about. Pauline Kael posted:You're worried about MY crisis? See what I mean? The deadliest insults they can imagine- autistic, ethnic fetishist, capitalizing "bad poster" so that everyone can tell the gloves are coming off- it's great. Jarmak posted:You splitting hairs to try to claim that how your argument was framed wasn't precisely what you said even though the distinction has no impact on the argument being made against you is not what "straw man" or "liar" means It's not splitting hairs or nitpicking to distinguish between something being labeled as part of a category and something being practiced, and the entire argument is that nothing short of a SWAT team busting down the door and shooting anyone that cooks egg foo young counts. Even though the fact that egg foo young is "inauthentic" does damage the ability of people to sell it, since it becomes a low-class food, something that earns you a black mark when people review your restaurant or food truck- and reviews are a big deal in the food business. This "authenticity", not that the culture warriors care, is generated by primarily white elites.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 19:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 10:32 |
|
|
Effectronica posted:The fun part of any thread like this is when the culture warriors start letting their real feelings slip. What the gently caressing gently caress are you even talking about now? I don't know about all the gimmicks, you're just a lovely person with bad opinions. Now a Chinese take out place that serves egg foo young is somehow committing a hate crime, got it. I'll have to let the restaurants know. Maybe you should start a service where you can go in and explain to the ignorant savages what they're allowed to serve. Effectronica, white savior of noble savages!
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2015 20:18
|
|