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Fangz posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth Sure, but I mean, were average people expecting Trench Warfare Round 2, or did they realize tanks and planes were a big enough deal that they could get around trench warfare, or was it literally "trench warfare only happened because of the Jews"?
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Apr 18, 2015 21:00
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WW1 wasn't just static trench warfare and Germany eventually won in the east (even if it involved shipping Lenin from Switzerland to Russia). Equally, anti-war books such as that particular one by Erich Marie Remarque were banned in Hitler's Germany. NSDAP leadership and the party core pretty much was made up of WW1 veterans (Hitler, Göring) or people who wanted to be like them (Goebbbels, Himmler). quote:were average people expecting Trench Warfare Round 2 Nenonen fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 21:30
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People bounced between expecting no war (not unrealistic, by September 1939 Hitler looked like a master of diplomacy who had forced Britain and France time and again to concede to all his demands) and expecting a long and horrible trench war. The Fall of France was the only time the German population were genuinely pro-war, and that's to do with the miraculous success of the German army making it look like the war was going to end soon with a relatively cheap victory. e: from 41 to 45 the boogyman was being sent to the Eastern front to fight off the Slavic hordes. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Apr 18, 2015 |
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Apr 18, 2015 21:33
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The Germans were largely pretty anti-war because of the experience of WWI, but the people didn't have much of a choice in the matter. They mostly went to war with a sense of grim determination, much like most of Europe. That was bad, this is going to be bad, but hopefully it will be over soon and we won't all die. The only time there was some genuine enthusiasm was late 1940, when it seemed anything was possible.
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Apr 19, 2015 00:48
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Tias posted:Yeah, don't leave us hanging Remind me tomorrow evening when I get back home.
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Apr 19, 2015 02:37
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Nenonen posted:"Average people" don't know anything about contemporary methods of warfare, no matter what the era.  Actually I imagine if you went back to say, early Republican Rome as an easy examples, there's a good chance much of the population would have served in a war or two, so we could expect the average citizen to have a reasonably good grasp of it.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:45
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:
Ancient Greece would be a better example since even the poors got to participate. Granted, not much grand strategy you can learn whilst rowing a trireme, but everyone had to fight. I suppose in ancient times, mobilizing all the people was just something you got to do fairly often rather than one every few generations.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:56
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Libluini posted:This reminds me, if the High Seas Fleet could have lured their enemy in as planned, a lot of British ships would have eaten torpedos. Also torpedo boats are faster then even battlecruisers. Actually there was very little effective difference in speed between a torpedo boat and a battlecruiser in the North Sea. Destroyer and torpedo boat-sized ships required a much higher top speed just to be able to stay in company with battlecruisers because the battlecruisers could weather heavier conditions and still maintain their maximum speed.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:22
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Deptfordx posted:But they're also planning to destroy Beatty's Battlecruiser squadron by luring them into battle with the High Seas fleet main body. How? In the event, this was pretty much what happened: Beatty was not able to give a good report to Jellicoe and Jellicoe being able to deploy into line in exactly the right position was a matter of chance, intuition and educated guesswork. As for how good British intel was, the Germans suspected spies or leaks I believe as early as the Battle of Dogger Bank. They tried to mount counter-intelligence operations, but those of course turned up nothing because there were no spies to be caught. Cythereal posted:That and you get a very good idea of just how much of a game-changer radar was, highlighted by the American leaders who didn't grasp its potential and paid dearly for it. Also I agree with the book's question for the ages of why submarines weren't employed more by the USN in that campaign, though I suppose the situation fitted the Japanese doctrine of how to employ submarines more than the American doctrine. It's my understanding that this was because there were two sub commands: One based in Australia tracing back to the "US Asiatic Fleet", and another based in Pearl Harbor that we now know as COMSUBPAC. They were responsible for different sections of the Pacific theater, and it just so happened that the Solomons were at the border of the two commands' designated areas, and so not as many submarines were ever posted there because of the possibility of blue-on-blue incidents as well as how relatively out-of-the-way it was.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:24
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Meanwhile, in the 17th century: At that time also the Imperial colonel Lord Chiesa, who had brought himself off bravely at the sack of Mantua and therefore was knighted by His Imperial Majesty at Regensburg, sought shelter at an inn on the Saxon border with eight people. About midnight came sixty horsemen from Magdeburg, blew the doors out, and took the aforementioned Lord Oberst along with seven other people out of their beds, led them into a forest, and put them down. From this they got considerable plunder, as well as many secret papers which he had had on himself. The colonel's corpse was brought to Prague... HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 05:02
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So how were inns back then anyway? What was 17th century barfood like? Did they keep anything fancy in stock for rich clients?
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Apr 19, 2015 05:14
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Hey Gal, I know the armies you study are mixed religion, but are the small units mixed too? Could you find Lutherians and Catholics, say, serving in the same squad, living together? The 30 years war is usually portrayed as a religious struggle, and I knew the sides didn't split exactly that way, but maybe it's better understood as political?
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Apr 19, 2015 06:22
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BurningStone posted:Hey Gal, I know the armies you study are mixed religion, but are the small units mixed too? Could you find Lutherians and Catholics, say, serving in the same squad, living together? And I don't know whether or not I've found a mixed religion squad, because denomination is almost never mentioned in the texts I read. The one time it was is when a guy wrote to the Oberst-Lieutenant of the regiment I study that the guy he was suing had called him "a Catholic dog." Now, the Oberst-Lieutenant is Spanish (actually, Hispano-Flemish, but that's a really obscure ethnicity), so my working theory right now is that you only mention your religion if you are absolutely sure the person you're talking to is the same religion as you. Agean90 posted:So how were inns back then anyway? What was 17th century barfood like? Did they keep anything fancy in stock for rich clients? 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 06:42
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Holy god that leftmost onesie.
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Apr 19, 2015 07:09
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TheFluff posted:http://www.svt.se/nyheter/vetenskap/mer-krut-i-vasas-kanoner Thanks ! Have in return a clip showing a test firing against a sample section from the reconstructed USS Lawrence (Oliver Hazard Perry's flagship at the Battle of Lake Erie). This one features some spectacular clouds of splinters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfsuIaTU92Y
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Apr 19, 2015 09:05
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HEY GAL posted:No idea. I hope this will make up for the disappointment: I like the face of the guy getting stabbed. "Ugh, not again!"
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Apr 19, 2015 09:10
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100 Years Ago A look at what modern advertising bullshit might call "Temporary Landing Solutions" in order to get the blokes from their transports to the Gallipoli landing beaches. No, they haven't answered any of Colonel Hankey's points yet, why do you ask? The fight for Hill 60 continues, General Joffre pontificates again, and there's a subtly telling advert in today's paper.
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Apr 19, 2015 09:47
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Agean90 posted:So how were inns back then anyway? What was 17th century barfood like? Did they keep anything fancy in stock for rich clients? Looks like inns were stabby!
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Apr 19, 2015 10:14
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"Wherefore be I Squire Pink?" "Because thou art a human being, alright?!" One of Shakespeare's underappreciated plays...
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Apr 19, 2015 10:32
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Actually there was very little effective difference in speed between a torpedo boat and a battlecruiser in the North Sea. Destroyer and torpedo boat-sized ships required a much higher top speed just to be able to stay in company with battlecruisers because the battlecruisers could weather heavier conditions and still maintain their maximum speed. Point taken. But given the assumption the battlecruisers have steamed full speed into a trap and now have to maneuver out of range again, the smaller torpedo boats would still have overtaken them pretty easily. Especially since I assume smaller screening ships would have had the same trouble staying close to the battlecruisers they were meant to protect, so the battlecruisers would have had to be extra careful to not leave them behind. Which would have made their strategic speed significantly lower. This is why most of the battle was both sides carefully dancing around to avoid sending their ships into a bear trap and why the end was pretty much down to luck.
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Apr 19, 2015 10:33
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Can I get a recommendation for a book about the Soviet-Afghan War? What I know of the conflict I've only picked up from Rambo 3 and Charlie Wilson's War. Thank you HEY GAL by the way for recommending The Best and the Brightest. Fantastic book.
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Apr 19, 2015 12:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:Can I get a recommendation for a book about the Soviet-Afghan War? What I know of the conflict I've only picked up from Rambo 3 and Charlie Wilson's War. The Bear Went Over the Mountain and The Other Side of the Mountain are available as free pdf's. Also, you really need to watch The Beast of War! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxS3CL-IewY
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Apr 19, 2015 13:16
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So I read John Curry's 'Why Russian Tactics work on the Tabletop', and he talks about things like 'we followed the doctrine of dismounting infantry in cities, but otherwise driving past them.' Is there a book or doctrine paper for Soviet Deep Battle that lists those rules? Also, has Deep Battle gone under any development since 1990, or is the USA Air/Land (now Air/Sea) battle the main focus of things?
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Apr 19, 2015 14:36
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Agean90 posted:So how were inns back then anyway? What was 17th century barfood like? Did they keep anything fancy in stock for rich clients? I like to imagine if you were poor, you got a bit of the chicken. If you had money, a whole chicken!
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Apr 19, 2015 16:35
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They would even give your ale in a clean jug!
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Apr 19, 2015 16:38
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LowellDND posted:So I read John Curry's 'Why Russian Tactics work on the Tabletop', and he talks about things like 'we followed the doctrine of dismounting infantry in cities, but otherwise driving past them.' If you read that, read this too: http://www.wargaming.co/professional/details/articles/dkrussiantactics.pdf It's a bit, err, British(?), and has a number of weird ideas, but makes a couple of good points.
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Apr 19, 2015 17:48
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HEY GAL posted:No idea. I hope this will make up for the disappointment: Wouldn't everyone in that room be blinded by smoke and deafened if they shot those guns?
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Apr 19, 2015 18:47
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How much hearing does a person have left whose job it is to shoot guns and stand around artillery pieces?
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Apr 19, 2015 18:50
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Xerxes17 posted:Full text please "On August 18th, 1944, the battalion received a task to stop a German offensive along the highway to iauliai, near Kosciuki. At dawn, the battalion moved out under the cover of machinegun and artillery fire. The 57 mm gun took up a position near the cemetery, north-west of Kosciuki, and supported the advance of the 8th infantry company with fire. The enemy, having discovered our forces moving to an important road, attacked with motorized infantry. The artillerymen destroyed upcoming vehicles at close range and scattered enemy infantry. Under the deadly fire of the brave artillerymen, the enemy retreated in panic, taking heavy losses in men and vehicles. On August 19th, 1944, the enemy pulled up reserves and tanks and renewed their fierce attacks. 8th infantry company was attacked by up to 18 tanks and a battalion of infantry, aiming to reach the highway and hit the flank of the neighbouring battalion. Red Armyman Sergeev, a loader, received an order from his commander to let the tanks come close and then fire, to ensure that not a single German tank could break through or return. Comrade Sergeev fulfilled his commander's order with distinction, replying "The order will be carried out, as long as any one of us lives, the fascist scum will not pass." When tanks approached to 100-150 meters, the commander ordered "For the Motherland, for Stalin! Directly at the German tanks, fire!" Gunner Pisarenko knocked out 4 tanks, but he was wounded. He was replaced with breech operator Vydrenko, but he was blinded by an explosion. Then, comrade Sergeev took the gunner's position. Tanks were coming directly at the gun, but he did not falter, and knocked out a Panther tank at 50 meters. The Germans did not cease their attacks and kept coming. A direct hit from a Ferdinand knocked out the gun, but the heroic artillerymen did not leave their positions. As three tanks headed towards them, the commander yelled "Ready grenades!". The gun crew prepared their grenades and, with tanks were 15 meters away, yelling "you fuckers won't get past us" pelted the tanks with grenades. An eighth tank with its crew met its end, the rest turned back. Segreev took out his submachinegun and shot up the Germans running in panic. The Germans, choking on fire and blood, rolled back, taking heavy losses in men and vehicles. For his heroism, private Mikhail Yegorovich Sergeev is worthy of the highest reward of the Motherland: the title of Hero of the Soviet Union."
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Apr 19, 2015 18:54
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JaucheCharly posted:How much hearing does a person have left whose job it is to shoot guns and stand around artillery pieces? That doesn't really bode well for bar room de-escalation then.
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Apr 19, 2015 19:06
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JaucheCharly posted:How much hearing does a person have left whose job it is to shoot guns and stand around artillery pieces? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tekhh7Iy-sM
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Apr 19, 2015 19:13
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Eej posted:Wouldn't everyone in that room be blinded by smoke and deafened if they shot those guns? They are already blinded by that mad swag.
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Apr 19, 2015 19:44
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JaucheCharly posted:How much hearing does a person have left whose job it is to shoot guns and stand around artillery pieces? They'll be deaf if they live to their forties.
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Apr 19, 2015 20:01
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WHAAAAAT?!?! That was a rhetorical question. My old warrant officer had an apcload of jokes about deaf artillerymen and military humor in general, but I recall none.
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Apr 19, 2015 21:28
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Slavvy posted:Looks like inns were stabby! if it's got one or more of my dudes in it, there's gonna be a stabbing Edit: JaucheCharly posted:How much hearing does a person have left whose job it is to shoot guns and stand around artillery pieces? JaucheCharly posted:That was a rhetorical question. My old warrant officer had an apcload of jokes about deaf artillerymen and military humor in general, but I recall none. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 21:47
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Having actually been around artillery pieces, anyone who saw regular battle and practice with live ammo would probably be going deaf by the time they were middle aged. I was by a 2 pound cannon that was firing a quarter charge for a demonstration, and it was painful to stand within 50 feet without covering my ears. I can't imagine having to stand next to a full line of artillery without being able to protect yourself.
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Apr 19, 2015 22:02
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Tankers and artillerymen are deaf as anything.
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Apr 19, 2015 22:17
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chitoryu12 posted:Having actually been around artillery pieces, anyone who saw regular battle and practice with live ammo would probably be going deaf by the time they were middle aged. I was by a 2 pound cannon that was firing a quarter charge for a demonstration, and it was painful to stand within 50 feet without covering my ears. I can't imagine having to stand next to a full line of artillery without being able to protect yourself.
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Apr 19, 2015 22:20
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All of the old artillery dudes I'm around have massive hearing loss. All of the younger guys, myself included, are doing just fine. Modern hearing protection is a minor miracle. Also, sunscreen. edit - it was even worse for pilots.
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Apr 19, 2015 22:30
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Twitter is great, and also terrifying. Definitely going to find some space to slot this into tomorrow, with slightly better grammar.
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Apr 19, 2015 22:36
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