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Boardroom Jimmy posted:One really strange, easy to miss detail in this screen. Look at the map on the back wall by the stairs. Yep, there's a map of the actual world, not the game world. 
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Apr 13, 2015 01:06
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Boardroom Jimmy posted:One really strange, easy to miss detail in this screen. Look at the map on the back wall by the stairs. Yep, there's a map of the actual world, not the game world. Is this the FFVIII equivalent to someone having a map of Middle Earth on their wall?
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Apr 13, 2015 01:23
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Wow, this sequence is a lot better written than I remember, the cute interactions and that dread about ending a dream and waking up somewhere else (which is neat for both dreams in general and that we've been through Laguna dreams before and know what's coming whether they want it or not). It probably helps that I'm taking it in without Winhill's BGM. Sorry to say, one of the lowest points of this game's soundtrack for me.Boardroom Jimmy posted:One really strange, easy to miss detail in this screen. Look at the map on the back wall by the stairs. Yep, there's a map of the actual world, not the game world. Square decided to step up their game after FFVII's mention of Texas in the 7th Heaven pub. 
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Apr 13, 2015 07:54
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VagueRant posted:Winhill really feels like the small town start of an RPG, like if Laguna had his own game. Yeah, reminds me of the start of Lufia 2
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Apr 13, 2015 23:27
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I remember, when playing this as a kid, I was really annoyed at this section. They had left our regular gang on a cliffhanger and as an impatient child, I wanted to see what had happened. In subsequent replays, I've grown to appreciate this section. It's a calming piece of gameplay that fleshes out Laguna in a really endearing way and helps you familiarise yourself with Winhill ahead of a potential sidequest later on. Plus, it is pretty funny to equip ENC-None in this section and have Laguna proudly proclaim that he's killed no monsters.
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Apr 14, 2015 00:37
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JordanStiva posted:They had left our regular gang on a cliffhanger [...] Wipfmetz fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Apr 15, 2015 |
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Apr 15, 2015 15:45
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Wipfmetz posted:Which is funny, since they switched to the gang which jumped from a cliff. considering exactly how Kiros and Ward left that cliff, you have an odd definition of "jumped".
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Apr 15, 2015 17:25
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morallyobjected posted:considering exactly how Kiros and Ward left that cliff, you have an odd definition of "jumped". Laguna didn't really make much of a jump either.
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Apr 15, 2015 17:38
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ZevGun posted:Laguna didn't really make much of a jump either. He was, however, the only one who went off the cliff of his own free will.
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Apr 16, 2015 23:16
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morallyobjected posted:He was, however, the only one who went off the cliff of his own free will. Did he truly jump of his own free will or was he merely coerced into jumping by the threat of Esther troopers loving his poo poo up.
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Apr 17, 2015 02:40
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Hyord posted:Did he truly jump of his own free will or was he merely coerced into jumping by the threat of Esther troopers loving his poo poo up. I'd say it had more to do with the slipping and falling off the cliff then any jumping that may or may not have occurred.
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Apr 17, 2015 04:48
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Part Thirty-Three: In the Jailhouse Now A good question to ask, generally.   I guess we're Zell now.  : Uh huh. : How's Laguna doin'?Based on their reactions, it's clear that Quistis and Selphie weren't in the dream this time. You can also tell if you look at GF compatibility numbers, but Irvine was Kiros in that last sequence.  : It's not like I know everything about Ward, but... Well, you know how Laguna and company went to that Centra place and got into a real fix, right? I was completely wrong about that. As pointed out by ApplesandOranges, Zell has never been Ward. Ward and Kiros are both rotating roles.  Didn't Kiros say he was working as a janitor in the political prison?  Well, there we go. : And he's bored outta his mind! All he wants is to be fightin' alongside Laguna.This line is pretty ironic, given what we just saw of Laguna.  Quistis is back with the same question someone's always asking after a Laguna bit.  We still only have the one answer.  Sounds like we've been arrested.  Last I saw, Squall was on the wrong end of a three-foot icicle. He's probably not dancing.  We have to chat with Rinoa to move the story on. : Yeah, so. : And wasn't he from Galbadia?: Sure, he's a soldier there.: Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to be Ward in that 'dream world'?: Just now I was.Rinoa is the only member of the party who has never been inside the dream. : Does this room look familiar?She's figured something out.  Zell's not quite there yet.  There we go.  : Everyone listen up! This is the prison that Ward works at! He's a janitor here!Well, it makes sense that we'd be in a Galbadian prison.   : It's got to be here!: There's a prison for political activists in Galbadia... This must be the place where Ward works.Well, we just covered that. : Right here, where we are! I'm sure of it!She means that Ward works at the political prison, not to restate what Zell said.  : It's no surprise we're in jail. We did attack the sorceress... Hey, the last guy who attacked the president got away with it.  That's right! The sorceress killed him, so in a certain way, we're on the same side.  : What's going to happen to us?: Things don't look so good... The last mission was a complete failure and now they're in prison. Selphie was understating things.  This is also a good question.  This one seems to have an easier answer.  Unfortunately, if you thought the easy answer was the correct one, you're wrong.  Squall is still alive, though a bit disoriented and in lonelier quarters than the others. I like what the game does with the disc 2 opening. Having the Laguna sequence makes the cliffhanger with Squall a stronger one, and then cutting to Zell, where you also get Zell's thoughts instead of Squall's, makes the player wonder, even if it's just for a second, if Squall is really dead. Metatextually, it also makes an interesting parallel to the end of disc 1 of Final Fantasy VII.  This seems like something of a hanging thread in the game, but the Galbadians just patched him up after the fight. He's not dead in a street and he's disoriented, not wondering about specific healing methods.  If you were wondering why the remaining SeeDs/Rinoa and Irvine didn't just pile on Edea, this is probably why. The five of them probably couldn't handle her and the army at the same time.  They could definitely handle Seifer, though.  I just noticed how terrible Squall's toilet looks.  Squall also just saw the toilet. (That's a lie. He falls down because the room shakes.)     This is why the room was shaking: apparently it's a little modular cell.  Having a giant crane to haul your fancy mobile prison cell seems inefficient.  But that's enough of that.  Back to these guys.  These three dudes come into the cell. The one Zell doesn't like is the warden.  He's mean.  : What!? Whaddya mean!? The guys in back have machine guns. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were the same model as Laguna's. Mean Guy: Don't screw around with me!!! You understand who's in charge here!?  This guy really hates Zell.   Zell can't fight back or he'll get a bullet in the head.  So Mr. Guy takes some time out to kick him a bit.   I hope he forgot that he has to be somewhere else.  That's probably not good.  It's probably not great for Rinoa to identify herself, but there aren't that many options open.   Zell, you're not in a very good position for defending her.  And now you got kicked again. : Stop it already!!! Rinoa's not the kind of person to let Zell get the poo poo beat out of him for her sake.  Well, see ya. : Rinoa...: I'll be fine. Let's go.I'm sure that'll go well.  For now, though, it's back to Squall.  He's still havin' trouble standing up. I think it should have stuck with Squall for the whole transfer sequence, just five minutes of him falling over and getting tossed across the cell.  Seifer is the standing up champion of Balamb Garden.  Here is is, helping Squall out in his time of need.  Note: Seifer is not actually helping Squall out in his time of need.  I wonder where he's goin'.  Oh, he's going on Seifer's crucifying wall.  : ...What do you want? I like Seifer's pose here. : SeeD... : (......???)  : I'm not a SeeD. There must be some kind of secret you're given when you become a SeeD!: There's nothing. Even if there were, you think I'd tell you?Squall and the player know the same amount here (read: nothing) but if you go back to the SeeD graduation and getting the Timber mission, there's something Cid wasn't allowed to talk about, so maybe Seifer's on to something.  He certainly seems to think he is. : Didn't think you'd talk that easily.: ...Geez, I'm honored.: So here's a little somethin' for ya. Seifer (or his boss) is obviously convinced that SeeD has a secret.  This is also a good point.   : ...They're...all here...?I wonder if anybody's told Squall where "here" is. : Oh, you bet. But since I like you so much, I thought you should go first.If you were wondering why Seifer would go after Squall instead of, say, Quistis (who's more likely to know things), here's why. This is a personal thing for him. Would you be surprised to learn that Seifer's theme is called "Rivals"? Because it is:   You mean when I kicked your rear end in one hit? : My childhood dream, fulfilled. I've become the sorceress' knight. Squall is skeptical. : (...His...romantic dream...?)There really doesn't seem to be anything romantic about his dream. As a side note, Seifer doesn't mean romantic like he's dating the sorceress, but romantic like fanciful or sentimental; he's talking about his childhood dream, remember. I was confused about this the first time I played the game. : (But...Seifer...Now, you're just...)  Squall gets the insult in, and then he passes out.  Seifer's pose here is pretty good. He's very proud of himself for being Edea's knight, so he's very slighted when Squall poo poo talks the position. : Passed out cold, eh?  There goes ol' romantic Seifer. This is also the point where the role reversal in the story is really cemented. I think I've mentioned it before, but before this Seifer really does have the more traditionally heroic role in the story; this is his first really villainous act.  : Don't disappoint me now!
Cool Ghost fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2015 23:14
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Cool Ghost posted:As usual, Zell was Ward. I don't know why Kiros is a rotating role. Actually, Zell's never been Ward before this. He was Kiros in the first sequence and he wasn't in the second. The unsaid implication of the game is that the Galbadian soldiers figured out how the gate fell during the parade and went to the sewer entrance to capture the gateway team during/after Edea wallops Squall. Meanwhile, Irvine manages to escape the capture, possibly because he's part of Galbadia Garden, after which he passes out and experiences the WInhill sequence.
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Apr 18, 2015 23:38
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The Seifer/Squall contrast is really well done, I find. Seifer definitely feels like he should be the hero before this, he's loud, driven and enthusiastic, while at the same time being rebellious, all characteristics usually given to heroes (the rebellious and loud parts being key in basically every manga/anime ever). Squall is silent, unfriendly, and overly harsh, not particularly heroic attributes (admittedly, his harshness is just as bad as Seifer's constant insults). Even their designs seem to be made for us to think of them as the opposite they are: Seifer is almost entirely in light colours (blond hair, white jacket) versus Squall's far darker scheme (brown hair, black clothes). Of course, the roles they take only make this even more obvious: the "Knight" that protects the sorceress (basically the princess here) entirely because of his own drive, versus the mercenary from a shady organization who only cares about the money. This will become even more obvious because of a later scene that everyone seems to be dying to talk about every time Seifer comes up and for drat good reason, but let's let the game follow its own (admittedly flawed) pace. That said, their developments show their true nature. Seifer's obsessed with his goal to the point that he's doing something blatantly evil for it, even moreso since he's constantly failed at properly proceeding down the path he wished for, the path of a SeeD. Squall starts as the perfect mercenary, only in it for the money and without any personal attachment to anyone or anything, but he's becoming more friendly and a better person, not to mention a proper leader. Perhaps the most hilarious thing is that I doubt either can see how they're changing. Seifer definitely can't, and Squall likely can't either.
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Apr 19, 2015 00:41
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I figure the "romantic dream" is a localization issue and I'd bet the original script had it written as 男のロマン. This word has more nuance than a literal translation (which could be, in essence, "a man's romance"): it usually refers to a boyish yearning, dream or aspiration for something, not necessarily something romantic - i.e. "when I grow up, I'm gonna be a Sorceress' Knight or an explorer like Indiana Jones or a pirate, sailing across the world". I'm pretty sure they could've simply localized it as "dream" for the sake of simplicity and it would've been fine. Brunom1 fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 01:06
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I don't see the issue? Wanting to be a hero or a knight is very much a romantic dream. It doesn't have to have anything to do with romantic love in English, either.
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Apr 19, 2015 01:16
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Kajeesus posted:I don't see the issue? Wanting to be a hero or a knight is very much a romantic dream. It doesn't have to have anything to do with romantic love in English, either. This translation does make more sense and sounds okay enough once we meet the sorceress and find out what his dream actually is. But when he first brought it up out of nowhere in the middle of the exam? It still sounds horribly awkward even now when I know what he's talking about.
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Apr 19, 2015 01:36
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Blaze Dragon posted:The Seifer/Squall contrast is really well done, I find. Seifer definitely feels like he should be the hero before this, he's loud, driven and enthusiastic, while at the same time being rebellious, all characteristics usually given to heroes (the rebellious and loud parts being key in basically every manga/anime ever). Squall is silent, unfriendly, and overly harsh, not particularly heroic attributes (admittedly, his harshness is just as bad as Seifer's constant insults). Even their designs seem to be made for us to think of them as the opposite they are: Seifer is almost entirely in light colours (blond hair, white jacket) versus Squall's far darker scheme (brown hair, black clothes). Of course, the roles they take only make this even more obvious: the "Knight" that protects the sorceress (basically the princess here) entirely because of his own drive, versus the mercenary from a shady organization who only cares about the money. This will become even more obvious because of a later scene that everyone seems to be dying to talk about every time Seifer comes up and for drat good reason, but let's let the game follow its own (admittedly flawed) pace. Agreed. The contrast between Seifer and Squall is easily the best writing this game manages. It goes all the way from the superficial right down to their roles and development in the story. It helps that this is one of the few plot points the game sticks with. Most others are either brought up or dropped. Also I love this song. Rivals
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Apr 19, 2015 02:05
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ApplesandOranges posted:Actually, Zell's never been Ward before this. He was Kiros in the first sequence and he wasn't in the second. You're right. I've always just assumed that Zell was Ward the first time and, by the time I've hit this point, forget whose junctions were where and take the line about how he's supposed to be Ward to mean that he's been Ward before.
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Apr 19, 2015 16:36
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Kajeesus posted:I don't see the issue? Wanting to be a hero or a knight is very much a romantic dream. It doesn't have to have anything to do with romantic love in English, either. Exactly, it's pretty much the textbook definition of romantic as in "idealized".
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Apr 19, 2015 19:16
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LordAba posted:Exactly, it's pretty much the textbook definition of romantic as in "idealized". Its still a pretty odd choice of word when describing yourself. People say they're "following their dreams", they're not "following their romantic dreams".
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Apr 19, 2015 20:18
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This is the dumbest argument I have seen in this thread. It's not that weird at all to describe something as "romantic" and not mean "intent on sex". poo poo, there's an entire artistic movement called romantic and it has gently caress all to do with anything other than an aesthetic ideal.
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Apr 20, 2015 00:15
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Blaze Dragon posted:The Seifer/Squall contrast is really well done, I find. Seifer definitely feels like he should be the hero before this, he's loud, driven and enthusiastic, while at the same time being rebellious, all characteristics usually given to heroes (the rebellious and loud parts being key in basically every manga/anime ever). Squall is silent, unfriendly, and overly harsh, not particularly heroic attributes (admittedly, his harshness is just as bad as Seifer's constant insults). Even their designs seem to be made for us to think of them as the opposite they are: Seifer is almost entirely in light colours (blond hair, white jacket) versus Squall's far darker scheme (brown hair, black clothes). Of course, the roles they take only make this even more obvious: the "Knight" that protects the sorceress (basically the princess here) entirely because of his own drive, versus the mercenary from a shady organization who only cares about the money. This will become even more obvious because of a later scene that everyone seems to be dying to talk about every time Seifer comes up and for drat good reason, but let's let the game follow its own (admittedly flawed) pace. The noble knight vs ruthless mercenary thing would work better if Squalls first mission wasn't charity work for a group of rebel clowns.
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Apr 20, 2015 00:20
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Weavered posted:Its still a pretty odd choice of word when describing yourself. People say they're "following their dreams", they're not "following their romantic dreams". It fits Seifer though. He's brandishing it not only as his motivation but as an excuse for what he's done in joining the Sorceress and going up against classmates. It's also another contrast to Squall. Squall uses entirely too few words when talking with others while Seifer has a bombastic way of talking.
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Apr 20, 2015 01:04
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EponymousMrYar posted:It fits Seifer though. He's brandishing it not only as his motivation but as an excuse for what he's done in joining the Sorceress and going up against classmates. pretty much this. Seifer is all about other people's perceptions of him and trying to be cool/dramatic. Iretep posted:The noble knight vs ruthless mercenary thing would work better if Squalls first mission wasn't charity work for a group of rebel clowns. it's more about his attitude than his actions. at the beginning, Squall doesn't care whom he works for or what the mission is, while Seifer has a dream, so in his mind, he's the noble one and Squall is a heartless, immature scrub.
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Apr 20, 2015 01:14
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Man, I really wish Seifer had just been the protagonist and Squall be the rival. Have a fun overly cocky hero who has to learn his limits and have the weird anti-social brooding loner guy go off and be the sorceress' creepy hanger-on. Also put me in Team "romantic was unnecessary". Cool Ghost posted:
I found myself thinking more that the entire thing was a bit weird and pointless. Squall gets ice stabbed, then is healed off screen and everything is fine and there are no consequences. Also, no matter how OP you are, Edea just cutscene kills you, which is a bit of a difficult swallow. Doubly so given that if she kills you in-game it's a straight up game over. I kinda feel like it would've been stronger to end disc 1 with the Galbadian reinforcements arriving and totally outnumbering the crew to put and end to that battle.
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Apr 20, 2015 01:53
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VagueRant posted:Doubly so given that if she kills you in-game it's a straight up game over. Are you sure about this? I've read a few times that Edea right there is one of the few boss fights you can lose and still continue the game on.
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Apr 20, 2015 02:57
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Yeah, the whole cliffhanger ended up being a real cop-out. Squall receives a giant, almost certainly mortal wound, in a cutscene even! That's the only time characters are in danger! The audience is genre-savvy enough to know that a horrible cutscene injury is a Big Deal (thanks, FFVII) and actually has to be addressed by the plot. And then they just resolve it by going "he got better" and never mention it again. I guess you could argue that Edea used plot magic to make him better, but why? She already had a team of SeeDs she could question (although the need for questioning is a whole other issue we can't really discuss at the moment). Essentially the writers just pretended their cliff hanger never happened, because resolving it sounded like effort.
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Apr 20, 2015 02:58
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Schwartzcough posted:Yeah, the whole cliffhanger ended up being a real cop-out. Squall receives a giant, almost certainly mortal wound, in a cutscene even! That's the only time characters are in danger! The audience is genre-savvy enough to know that a horrible cutscene injury is a Big Deal (thanks, FFVII) and actually has to be addressed by the plot. And then they just resolve it by going "he got better" and never mention it again. I guess you could argue that Edea used plot magic to make him better, but why? She already had a team of SeeDs she could question (although the need for questioning is a whole other issue we can't really discuss at the moment). Essentially the writers just pretended their cliff hanger never happened, because resolving it sounded like effort. Eh, when you get right down to it, it's hardly the worst orphaned plot in the grand scheme of things.
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Apr 20, 2015 03:03
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Magic Fanatic posted:Are you sure about this? I've read a few times that Edea right there is one of the few boss fights you can lose and still continue the game on. You can lose this battle yes, but the game will cut to the cutscene not a game over. This was mentioned in the update I believe and the only thing you miss is the AP.
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Apr 20, 2015 03:21
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Wow, really? That's actually pretty awesome.
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Apr 20, 2015 03:46
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But really no matter what, you have to try in order to lose to Edea. Seriously. She's a pushover even with terrible junctions.
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Apr 20, 2015 03:52
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:But really no matter what, you have to try in order to lose to Edea. Seriously. She's a pushover even with terrible junctions. As long as you don't break her with Reflect, and haven't been abusing refining to get spells way out of line with what's available at the level you would reasonably fight her at, she's not too bad a boss. It's just that the difficulty curve in this game is so broken that early levelling (giving you access to -ara and -aga spells from monster drops), card modding (particularly if you play a lot of TT), or simple item grinding will all make most bosses trivial.
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Apr 20, 2015 04:48
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Regalingualius posted:Eh, when you get right down to it, it's hardly the worst orphaned plot in the grand scheme of things. I also think that the injury just being healed off-screen is nonsense. Even when what happened probably just was "you know the prison sequence is up next soooo how do we make the party lose?", they could have done something with it. A lot of genre contemporaries do gameplay things to signify the protagonist being hurt/crippled/confused/poisoned, and it would be as simple (and ultimately meaningless) to take away Squall's ability to pull the gunblade's trigger as long as he is plot-injured. He recovers that after some other scene with a few words, in the end it doesn't matter at all, but the injury is not just handwaved and this whole debate is moot.
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Apr 20, 2015 08:33
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Re: Squall's recovery, I was under the impression (without proof, admittedly, but it's how I imagined it) that blizzaga was just magically making the air around the target cold enough to hinder them in battle or whatever rather than actually summoning icicles - I didn't think magic would actually leave wounds. If the game didn't specifically call attention to the whole thing it would have been fine. I know it was a cutscene and all but flashier attacks and sharper objects are shrugged off constantly in JRPGs (or hell, video games in general) without wounds.
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Apr 20, 2015 11:09
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I just take it as a "Don't gently caress with Edea" attack that she does because she can, but she doesn't actually want Squall dead, because she can see he's the leader and wants to interrogate him. of course you can steamroll Seifer because he's a chump, but with Edea, I figured you were just getting her to her "gently caress off" point where she just didn't want to deal with you anymore
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Apr 20, 2015 15:11
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morallyobjected posted:with Edea, I figured you were just getting her to her "gently caress off" point where she just didn't want to deal with you anymore This is how I felt about it too. Reminds me of FF9's Beatrix, too, who I believe has at least 1 battle with you where regardless of whether or not you can deplete all her HP, she'll still win the battle in terms of plot & cutscenes. It's more like you got rid of all her patience instead of her HP. I'm sure this trope shows up in other JRPGs too... inverts fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 15:52
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morallyobjected posted:I just take it as a "Don't gently caress with Edea" attack that she does because she can, but she doesn't actually want Squall dead, because she can see he's the leader and wants to interrogate him. Yeah, that attack is basically Edea's limit break. She's treating the party like you would a random encounter, and when they turn out to be stronger than she expected, she just busts out the limit and offs them. Also, re: healing, it just occurred to me: Squall is the only SeeD in front of Edea at the time. Quistis, Zell, and Selphie are all off in the control room and it's possible they were grabbed a bit later. Long enough for Edea to heal Squall and have Seifer haul him off. There's also the fact that Seifer wants Squall alive and probably has some pull. It also goes to Seifer's view of himself as a hero, because heroes will stop people from killing others all the time in stories like this. Of course, that's all guesswork because it's not shown or explained.
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Apr 20, 2015 15:57
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The attack is called Ice Strike, and yeah it's basically her limit break.
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Apr 20, 2015 16:00
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inverts posted:Reminds me of FF9's Beatrix, too, who I believe has at least 1 battle with you where regardless of whether or not you can deplete all her HP, she'll still win the battle in terms of plot & cutscenes. This is actually every fight with her. After a while, she will just Stock Break/Climhazzard you and tell you how boring it is to beat you so easily.
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Apr 20, 2015 17:30
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