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Trin Tragula posted:Twitter is great, and also terrifying. i am pretty sure that was always the meaning of "there is some corner of a foreign field that is forever england," like i'm not sure how you could read it any differently
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Apr 19, 2015 22:51
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HEY GAL posted:i am pretty sure that was always the meaning of "there is some corner of a foreign field that is forever england," like i'm not sure how you could read it any differently
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Apr 19, 2015 23:13
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Okay, thanks to the general chat about deaf 30YW mercenaries in taverns, I was reading the Wikipedia article about the 80 Years War. It says at the siege of Steenwijk that 50 artillery pieces dropped 29,000 shots on the fortress and that at the siege of Coevorden, the fortress was bombarded for 6 weeks. Is this fairly typical of sieges at the time? The article indicates that Maurice of Nassau had a larger than usual train of artillery. What would "constant bombardment" have consisted of at that time? Also, here's Maurice rollin (front row left, with the creepy, starey horse)':  The island of Mauritius was named after him. If anyone knows a bit more about the dude and his army reforms, I'd love to hear about it. I know I can read Wikipedia, but opinionated views of history are always fun! e: Wikipedia and the 80 YW led me to this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthasar_G%C3%A9rard who assassinated William the Silent. If there isn't an awesome action film in this, then I don't know. Wikipedia posted:As William the Silent climbed the stairs to the second floor, he was spoken to by the Welsh captain, Roger Williams, who knelt before him. William put his hand on the bowed head of the old captain, at which moment Gérard jumped out of a dark corner. He drew his weapon and fired three shots at the stadtholder. William the Silent collapsed. His sister knelt beside him, but it was too late. Mon Dieu, ayez pitié de moi et de mon pauvre peuple (My God, have mercy on me and on my poor people) were reportedly William's last words. I can't help but picture Jason Stratham in some Transporter-style shenanigans. His trial and execution was pretty brutal, especially the bit with his heart... Elissimpark fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 23:27
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Friend of mine had a question about World War II, so I figured that you guys could give a good answer. He was wondering just what would have been the outcome of Germany successfully encouraging Japan to commit to attacking the Soviet Union at the same time as Barbarossa, thus before the United States had entered the war. We're unsure exactly how much the Japanese could dedicate in June of 1941 or slightly before when they're already dealing with China and the American embargoes, as well as how well the Soviets could have fought off the attack. Personally I don't think they could have dedicated enough resources to hamper the Soviets to the point where Germany could have potentially defeated them.
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Apr 20, 2015 02:21
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chitoryu12 posted:Friend of mine had a question about World War II, so I figured that you guys could give a good answer. You're 100% right.
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Apr 20, 2015 02:44
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my dad posted:If you read that, read this too: http://www.wargaming.co/professional/details/articles/dkrussiantactics.pdf This was a really good read, thank you! Ensign Expendable posted:For his heroism, private Mikhail Yegorovich Sergeev is worthy of the highest reward of the Motherland: the title of Hero of the Soviet Union." Thank you Ensign, you always have interesting stuff to share.
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Apr 20, 2015 02:50
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Hogge Wild posted:You're 100% right. As I understand it, the IJA probably would have shot any minister in Tokyo who seriously wanted them to attack the Soviet Union.
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Apr 20, 2015 02:50
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Cythereal posted:As I understand it, the IJA probably would have shot any minister in Tokyo who seriously wanted them to attack the Soviet Union. And if they hadn't, the Navy would have.
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Apr 20, 2015 03:03
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Cythereal posted:As I understand it, the IJA probably would have shot any minister in Tokyo who seriously wanted them to attack the Soviet Union. It would probably have been their wisest move in the entire war. Elissimpark posted:Okay, thanks to the general chat about deaf 30YW mercenaries in taverns, I was reading the Wikipedia article about the 80 Years War. What, did he reload? It says he haggled for 2 pistols for 50 crowns (a deal?) and maybe he had a third? Frostwerks fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 03:44
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Hogge Wild posted:You're 100% right. Is there anything out there regarding what, specifically, Russia did between the RJW in 1905 and the 30s/40s to become more of a match for Japan? Or was it just the political instability and overall weakness of the Tsarist state?
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Apr 20, 2015 03:49
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FAUXTON posted:Is there anything out there regarding what, specifically, Russia did between the RJW in 1905 and the 30s/40s to become more of a match for Japan? Or was it just the political instability and overall weakness of the Tsarist state? When Russo-Japanese war happened, Russia was just in the early stages of industrialization. By 1940s Soviet Union's economy was much greater, even with the destruction caused by the WWI, the Civil War and early communist policies. Eg. in 1914 Russia was behind USA, Great Britain, Germany and France in steel and coal production, but in 1941 Soviet Union was only behind USA.
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Apr 20, 2015 04:17
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FAUXTON posted:Is there anything out there regarding what, specifically, Russia did between the RJW in 1905 and the 30s/40s to become more of a match for Japan? Or was it just the political instability and overall weakness of the Tsarist state? The RJW was fought when the single-track Trans-Siberian Railway was the only thing connecting European Russia to the Far East. That's a hell of a logistics issue. Aside from that, Russia was having severe internal problems, culminating in the 1905 revolution (And it's subsequent fizzle.) The IJA and the Russian Army were more or less comparable, but the RJW as a whole was basically Japan's to win. chitoryu12 posted:Personally I don't think they could have dedicated enough resources to hamper the Soviets to the point where Germany could have potentially defeated them. It is 1,000km from Warsaw to Moscow, which is a distance that the Germans couldn't bridge, with numerous advantages on their side. In 1939, the IJA and the Soviet Army fought at Khalkin Gol, a river in Communist Mongolia that the Japanese were contesting. The Japanese were utterly trashed by the Soviets, and signed their non-aggression pact with that in mind. The nearest major city from Khalkin Gol, Irkutsk, is also 1,000km away. The next stop over is Krasnoyarsk, which is another 1,000km away. A Japanese offensive would mean going through 2,000 km of harsh terrain with terrible infrastructure, in order to accomplish very little at all. The Soviets would barely need to contest it.
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Apr 20, 2015 04:25
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Frostwerks posted:It says he haggled for 2 pistols for 50 crowns (a deal?) and maybe he had a third? quote:What, did he reload?  I'll write about Maurician reforms when I'm not so tired, sorry
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Apr 20, 2015 04:35
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Frostwerks posted:It would probably have been their wisest move in the entire war. I can't find a definite source on how many times he was shot, but 3 seems to be correct. Three pistols would make sense, but reloading in the middle of an assassination attempt provides a funnier mental picture. Incidentally, this was the apparently the second assassination of a head of government by firearm, though I did see a book on Amazon suggesting it was the first. This dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stewart,_1st_Earl_of_Moray was the first. I recommend the article if only for the alleged death of Lady Mondegreen. Wrong Earl of Moray, but nice try. e: HEY GAL posted:I'll write about Maurician reforms when I'm not so tired, sorry Elissimpark fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 04:38
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Hogge Wild posted:When Russo-Japanese war happened, Russia was just in the early stages of industrialization. By 1940s Soviet Union's economy was much greater, even with the destruction caused by the WWI, the Civil War and early communist policies. Eg. in 1914 Russia was behind USA, Great Britain, Germany and France in steel and coal production, but in 1941 Soviet Union was only behind USA. In short, Stalin?
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Apr 20, 2015 04:39
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FAUXTON posted:Is there anything out there regarding what, specifically, Russia did between the RJW in 1905 and the 30s/40s to become more of a match for Japan? Or was it just the political instability and overall weakness of the Tsarist state? Tanks, planes, (the motorization of infantry?) and (the beginnings of) mobile doctrine were a thing by the time of Khalkin Gol.
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Apr 20, 2015 04:42
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Elissimpark posted:I can't find a definite source on how many times he was shot, but 3 seems to be correct. Three pistols would make sense, but reloading in the middle of an assassination attempt provides a funnier mental picture. Wasn't there an early form of ASSAULT WEAPONS debate when some HoS got popped by a wheellock, which needing no match had no telltale spark or smoke?
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Apr 20, 2015 04:57
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Also recall that the Transbaikal Front wasn't empty, it was full of the most promising officers who were training and rearing to have a go at some invaders, German or otherwise.
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Apr 20, 2015 04:58
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Frostwerks posted:Wasn't there an early form of ASSAULT WEAPONS debate when some HoS got popped by a wheellock, which needing no match had no telltale spark or smoke? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 06:03
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Regarding the three shots thing: could the assassin have had one double barreled pistol and one regular one? How common were multi barrel wheel locks?
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Apr 20, 2015 06:32
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HEY GAL posted:Yeah, William the Silent was that guy. You can also hide them under your clothes and walk around with them. Incidentally, I recommend everyone to read how his assassin was executed. Yes, I'm an rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 20, 2015 06:38
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Regarding the three shots thing: could the assassin have had one double barreled pistol and one regular one? quote:Minutes of the States-General of 10 July 1584, quoted in JW Berkelbach van der Sprenkel, De Vader des Vaderlands, Haarlem 1941, p. 29: "Ten desen daghe es geschiet de clachelycke moort van Zijne Excellentie, die tusschen den een ende twee uren na den noen es ghescoten met een pistolet gheladen met dry ballen, deur een genaempt Baltazar Geraert... Ende heeft Zijne Excellentie in het vallen gheroepen: Mijn God, ontfermpt U mijnder ende Uwer ermen ghemeynte (Mon Dieu ayez pitié de mon âme, mon Dieu, ayez pitié de ce pauvre peuple)".  Different paths on their way out of him?
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Apr 20, 2015 06:39
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The Silent is such a stupid epithet. Is that a UK thing?
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Apr 20, 2015 07:09
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Groda posted:The Silent is such a stupid epithet. Is that a UK thing? Dutch, also known as William of Orange.
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Apr 20, 2015 07:11
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It's really strange that he got shot conveniently where somebody had hung placards of his impending assassination.
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Apr 20, 2015 07:14
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HEY GAL posted:That doesn't explain the holes though:
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Apr 20, 2015 07:14
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But then again, "accurate smooth bore pistol" is a bit of an oxymoron, anyway. Speaking of smooth bores, how is it that the smooth bore weapons of the pre-19th century have a reputation for being hilariously inaccurate while modern tank guns are also smooth bore (  excepted) and reportedly fairly accurate? I can buy it for the fin-stabilized ammunition, but what about HE/HEAT? Just less windage?
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Apr 20, 2015 07:40
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ArchangeI posted:But then again, "accurate smooth bore pistol" is a bit of an oxymoron, anyway. They've all got fins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:125mm_BK-14m_HEAT.JPG The British stayed with rifled barrels because their special HESH shells work better with them. It's probably a mistake, but oh well.
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Apr 20, 2015 07:47
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Groda posted:The Silent is such a stupid epithet. Is that a UK thing? The story provided by Wikipedia regards this is pretty cool - and "the Silent" is the best us English speakers could do. Rent-A-Cop posted:Almost certainly. Loading three balls into a smooth bore pistol isn't exactly a recipe for accuracy but it sounds like a drat good way to make sure whoever you shoot from point blank range dies. This story keeps getting more and more  - its starting to sound like a 16th century version of The Jackal. Wonder if Bruce Willis could be talked into a period piece...Can anyone recommend some reading about the 80YW or about William himself?
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Apr 20, 2015 09:11
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HEY GAL posted:i am pretty sure that was always the meaning of "there is some corner of a foreign field that is forever england," like i'm not sure how you could read it any differently The line is "there shall be in that rich earth a richer dust concealed", not "that rich earth shall basically be made up entirely of English corpses".
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Apr 20, 2015 09:20
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:"that rich earth shall basically be made up entirely of English corpses" HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 09:25
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100 Years Ago German guns open fire on Ypres, scattering the sizeable number of civilians who've returned in the last few months. Armenians in Van are now in open revolt, the Germans ineffectually counter-attack Hill 60, and Herbert Sulzbach wanders away from his billet to go and visit a family friend. There's also a truly fantastic advert in the paper which manages to advertise bread in the same fashion as patent medicine (anything which opens with 'Constipation' in large letters is okay by me), and my favourite redundant headline makes a welcome return.  The money market has a desire for money  Also, in completely unrelated news, I very much enjoyed this blog entry from The Social Historian ("Orange is the new Jacobite") about the Glorious Revolution. quote:Things then came to a head when a group of nobles, known as the ‘Immortal Seven’ (like the Fantastic Four but more wiggy), decided to respond in the most English way possible. They wrote a letter (this was to be, after all, the most passive-aggressive revolution in history). Ahhh, that's the good stuff.
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Apr 20, 2015 10:04
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FAUXTON posted:In short, Stalin? Wellll... that would be kinda like saying that it was Hitler who fixed Germany's economy.
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Apr 20, 2015 10:10
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Hogge Wild posted:Wellll... that would be kinda like saying that it was Hitler who fixed Germany's economy. It's a steel joke.
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Apr 20, 2015 10:12
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Hogge Wild posted:Wellll... that would be kinda like saying that it was Hitler who fixed Germany's economy. no it wouldn't Stalin's industrialisation policies were basically a hypercharged capitalist industrialisation: untold misery, starvation and totalitarianism, but it worked and by the end the Soviet Union was one of the strongest economies in the world. The Nazi warlord economy was not based on actual industrial power - Stalin's massive boner for heavy industry was many things (among them terribly deleterious in the very long term), but it was very beneficial for the Soviet GDP, and it's what won them the war.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:40
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chitoryu12 posted:He was wondering just what would have been the outcome of Germany successfully encouraging Japan to commit to attacking the Soviet Union at the same time as Barbarossa, thus before the United States had entered the war. We're unsure exactly how much the Japanese could dedicate in June of 1941 or slightly before when they're already dealing with China and the American embargoes, as well as how well the Soviets could have fought off the attack. Personally I don't think they could have dedicated enough resources to hamper the Soviets to the point where Germany could have potentially defeated them. In counterfactual questions like these I sometimes find it more interesting to explain not what could have happened, but why it didn't. The foundation of the Berlin-Tokyo understanding was the Anti-Cominterm Pact, meaning an agreement of mutual hostility towards the Soviet Union. However, the Germans negotiated and concluded the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with the USSR without consulting or even informing the Japanese government. It was as much a surprise to them as it was to everybody else. Molotov-Ribbentrop triggered a complete strategic realignment in the global diplomatic system. Soviet negotiators were actually talking to British and French diplomats about a possible Franco-British-Soviet alignment to contain Germany at the same time the M-R Pact was being finalized. Those talks broke down, the Soviets settled with the Germans a couple days later, and when the British diplomats asked for a meeting the Soviet team told them there was no point. From Japan's perspective, this was a disaster. Their diplomatic strategy of aligning with Germany against Moscow is in shambles, because the Germans reversed themselves and are now pro-Soviet. The Japanese are now exposed to Soviet hostility, and they know they won't be able to resist because they've had their heads handed to them more than once. The M-R Pact is actually announced literally just a few days after the Soviets shattered the Japanese forces at Khalkin Gol. The Japanese government folds and a new one is formed, pretty much with the remit to get out of the USSR's way ASAP. They need to cover themselves, so they avoid further hostilities with the USSR and eventually negotiate a mutual neutrality pact in the Spring of 1941. In the meantime, Japanese actions in Asia are leading to increased tensions with the USA, which then leads to the USA tightening economic pressure on Japan. Japan has a resource shortage and is committed to a huge, long-running war in China, so their strategy has to be based around gaining access to key resources. Eventually the USA begins an oil embargo, which turns this into a serious short-term problem: Japan needs oil, and soon, or their navy will be crippled and their operations in China will sputter to a halt. This is where they're at by 1941, when the Germans are asking them for help against the USSR. Basically, anything the Japanese do at that point needs to secure access to petroleum. Attacking the USSR doesn't do that. Attacking European colonies in the Pacific, specifically the Dutch East Indies, does. So by this time, it makes no sense on any level for the Japanese to join the German war with the USSR. They've already secured that front diplomatically, it doesn't serve their strategic interests, and the Germans already hosed them over on this point once, not to mention the extreme risk of getting the poo poo beaten out of them by the Red Army.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:44
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V. Illych L. posted:no it wouldn't Exactly. Hitler was just making up for slack demand in the already massive German industrial economy by printing money and borrowing to spend recklessly on things like armaments (though also infrastructure). Stalin created an industrial base where there basically wasn't one before, an enormous sea-change.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:47
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ArchangeI posted:But then again, "accurate smooth bore pistol" is a bit of an oxymoron, anyway. Superior manufacturing tolerances. Also you can and should have fin stabilized HEAT, having it spin reduces effectiveness.
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Apr 20, 2015 13:55
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Frostwerks posted:It's really strange that he got shot conveniently where somebody had hung placards of his impending assassination. He got distracted by reading it.
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Apr 20, 2015 14:35
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HisMajestyBOB posted:He got distracted by reading it. "Don't turn aroun-"
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Apr 20, 2015 14:52
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