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nelson posted:I don't like that killing someone who is threatening to kill a child and is pointing a gun at said child's head is considered murder in this world. This is textbook justifiable homicide and it's stupid that the writers think this should turn Emma's heart black. And they insinuated that it was evil particularly because Cruella couldn't actually harm him, despite the fact that no one could possibly know that. That's a somewhat flummoxing view of right and wrong.
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Apr 20, 2015 12:23
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The better way to handle that would be for Cruella to reveal that she couldn't kill somehow but then Emma decide that it wasn't worth the risk that MAYBE she could and then shot her off the cliff. As it is the "defenseless" part is really meaningless unless evil is a condition you contract when you do something regardless of intent (which in Disneyland it may well be). It's a bummer they killed her off since she was probably the most evil character and having her being hamstrung from killing is a great twist.
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Apr 20, 2015 12:49
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I haven't had time to watch the episode yet, but that sounds like a level of stupid that I don't know if I feel like deailng with for awhile. Maybe I'll let the last few episodes of this show sit until the summer lull...
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Apr 20, 2015 13:11
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ashez2ashes posted:I haven't had time to watch the episode yet, but that sounds like a level of stupid that I don't know if I feel like deailng with for awhile. Maybe I'll let the last few episodes of this show sit until the summer lull... It's still a good episode.
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Apr 20, 2015 14:44
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The most important thing about the episode to me: Cruella's backstory took place in a version of London or whatever that isn't our real world. It's another realm that's forever stuck in that particular period of time. Which means that the Peter Pan kids were probably in that particular realm as well. It makes sense too as Cruella can use her magic, where she probably couldn't do that magic green breath in New York. And I'm glad, because that annoyed me a lot with the Peter Pan thing. Any of these characters actually coming from our world in "real life" ruins the magic a little bit. It does suck a little that they killed off what is basically the most evil character in the show so quickly, but honestly they can only really do so much with her endgame if she can't kill anyone, and she wasn't going to be redeemed. Plus I've been wanting that thing to push Emma over the edge
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Apr 20, 2015 16:03
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The creators have mentioned that in a convention or something or other. Worlds like Alice's in Once Upon a Time in Wonderland aren't OURS in the Victorian era, but another one frozen in time. Same with black and white Frankenstein land, Agrabah, and any other land that could be ours, but set in other time period. It just lends itself to be easier to write for them and opens up to more stories in that realm. Like adding Mary Poppins or something. As for killing off Cruella, she's the only villain besides Pan that killed for the sport of it. Pan became young to stay in power and kept power to continue his reign of terror and spread it. Cruella was going to do the same with the abilities the Author bequeathed to her. They HAD to die. What else are you going to do? They haven't mentioned having an effective magical jail (Pandora's Box being cracked open, the Sorcerer's Hat being opened, no Genie bottles, etc.) There's no treatment for demented psychopaths or antisocial personality disorder, whatever you want to call it. What happened to Cruella was suicide by cop. You don't hold a gun to a kid in front of a sheriff who doesn't know the thing isn't loaded and threaten to shoot to kill.
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Apr 20, 2015 18:15
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Edit: Actually, nevermind. That joke is a little tasteless.
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Apr 20, 2015 19:05
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Captain von Trapp posted:And they insinuated that it was evil particularly because Cruella couldn't actually harm him, despite the fact that no one could possibly know that. That's a somewhat flummoxing view of right and wrong. We are dealing with fairy tales here. I don't mind that the subtleties of real morality are completely ignored. In fact, I think it's completely appropriate that the characters view good and evil as black and white, absolute terms.
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Apr 21, 2015 00:32
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Sure, I just think it's a 100% open-and-shut black-and-white obvious decision that the Right Thing To Do in response to a serial killer holding a gun on a child is to do whatever it takes to save the kid. Now it's really remarkable how many Disney villains have a tendency to fall off cliffs so the heroes don't have to actively kill them, but even then a few villains have gotten straight-up stabbed by the good guys in similar situations, including two in this arc: Maleficent and Ursula.
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Apr 21, 2015 02:02
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Well, that was pretty cool, having a villain who is truly just a complete sociopath. Shame we won't get to see more of her. I wonder if her parents named her Cruella from the start, or changed it when they realized she was evil. Because who the gently caress names a child Cruella?Pan Dulce posted:It's Disney. The good guys fight mainly to maim, not kill. Killing's just always the fortunate circumstance for the heroes and even then, the killing strike is never shown on screen in your face like that. Besides, if that reasoning that justifiable homicide doesn't blacken one's heart stands, then why would Snow's heart have gone black when she killed Cora? She DEFINITELY deserved it. I think the difference in Snow's case was the way she caused Cora's death. She tricked Regina into killing her own mother, with dark magic that she sought out. With Emma, it should be way less of an issue, but they'll probably find a way to construe it as darkness. Like saying she didn't have to push her off a cliff to save Henry.
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Apr 21, 2015 02:28
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Oh, and I can already see the foreshadowing with Emma handing Regina Chekhov's gun. While it'll never happen, I do like the image of Regina just plugging Zelena in the back in an alley while she's making a grocery run.
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Apr 21, 2015 03:43
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Remember kids, killing is only wrong if the victim has a name. I could have sworn Snow and Charming killed more than their fair share of guards back in fairy tale land without even pausing to think about it.
nelson fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 04:10
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You know, now I'm confused with now they handle killing as either corrupting or not. Because Red's definitely killed. So has Mulan, arguably, as a warrior. We have it implied that Hook's done a lot of terrible poo poo (killing maybe?). Snow and David have probably killed nameless little guards loads of times; I'm guessing the creators will say they only knocked them out or something similar. All of them either chose to do better and/or change. And when their hearts have been taken (Hook and Snow and David during the Wicked Witch), they don't look blackened much. I'm wondering if that's how they're going to handle this. That it's not really "bad is born" or "bad stains indefinitely." It's that bad is a choice and can change.
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Apr 21, 2015 07:54
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Killing only blackens your heart if you make a dopey "now I've gone full
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Apr 21, 2015 09:51
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McSpanky posted:Killing only blackens your heart if you make a dopey "now I've gone full Or if you look continuously more tired until you just give in and off the bad guy in the ridiculous "examples from a philosophy textbook on morality" situation you've been put in.
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Apr 21, 2015 15:02
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Haha, thanks! For this show, it feels like corruption only happens if you acknowledge it. Snow and Charming kidnapped a baby, but rationalized it away. Snow only developed evil in her heart because she regrets Rumple's heart is almost entirely coal because he's hyper-aware of being evil and how that's going to catch up with him. Regina's heart is a healthy mix of black and red because although she was one of the big evils, she didn't really care about a lot of the evil things she'd done. That regret tree in Neverland is my proof.
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Apr 21, 2015 15:31
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Emma straight up killed dragon Maleficent back in season one, so it can't just be killing which makes you turn, it's implied to be the defenseless part - which is still stupid for the reasons already mentioned.
Avalerion fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 16:55
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Dazerbeams posted:For this show, it feels like corruption only happens if you acknowledge it.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:31
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I don't know that I would read too much into this single event, yet. We're not positive what the end game is behind turning the savior dark, besides Gold's vague explanations as to how it is going to assist re-writing the stories, plus it may only be the first step in the process of corrupting her. You can always figure that there is some outside authority, the Sorcerer maybe, who makes the rules about what is heroic and villainous or light and dark, and it's his twisted vision that shapes the color of hearts and whatnot, rather than some objective, outside force.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:45
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I have to say, we finally got around to watching this one, and I'm amazed they took one of the lamest and out of place characters and made them one of the most interesting. They've done lots of evil for silly storybook reasons on this show, and why this worked is they were totally going full steam with another "this is how I became evil" story... except then they flipped it on it's head and turned her into an outright serial killer. I'm sure she'll be back, at least in flashbacks. But drat. I wasn't expecting her to have her mother mauled to death by her own dogs, then turn them into a coat. Seriously, that got pretty dark. Which is awesome. She's more evil than the lot of them. ED: Also the fact her 'happy ending' was offing one guy and regaining the power to wantonly murder is kind of great compared to everyone else. ashez2ashes posted:I haven't had time to watch the episode yet, but that sounds like a level of stupid that I don't know if I feel like deailng with for awhile. Maybe I'll let the last few episodes of this show sit until the summer lull... This was actually a high-point episode. Captain von Trapp posted:On the other hand, she never kidnapped a baby, poisoned its soul, and remained unrepentant about it decades later... But counter-point, she found the baby on the other side of the portal... and left it to starve in the woods. And it was her friend's kid. Seriously she makes Gold look like a choir boy. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 11:55
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If I like this series (it's fun, a bit cheesy but it can have an emotional impact when it wants to) what else would I like?
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Apr 23, 2015 23:01
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gmq posted:If I like this series (it's fun, a bit cheesy but it can have an emotional impact when it wants to) what else would I like? The Flash?
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Apr 23, 2015 23:18
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gmq posted:If I like this series (it's fun, a bit cheesy but it can have an emotional impact when it wants to) what else would I like? What appeals to you about it a bit more specifically?
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Apr 23, 2015 23:37
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gmq posted:If I like this series (it's fun, a bit cheesy but it can have an emotional impact when it wants to) what else would I like? Jane the Virgin, iZombie, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, and The Flash are all pretty lighthearted, but can hit some feels.
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Apr 24, 2015 00:14
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gmq posted:If I like this series (it's fun, a bit cheesy but it can have an emotional impact when it wants to) what else would I like? Farscape, if you have never watched it. stargate and all its follow ups (Atlantis, Universe - which starred Rumple) Fringe is vaguely similar sometimes Buffy obviously the 1 season of Once Upon a Time in Wonderland Game of Thrones (less cheese, more impact stuff) Warehouse 13 (series is over) i've heard good things about the yahoo web series Other Space, starring the guy from MST3K never seen it but I have heard Doctor Who can be equally cheesy/kiddy-friendly There are also a ton of new shows spinning up on SyFy that are interesting in that "surprise, motherfucker!" twisties of OUAT, like 12 Monkeys and upcoming Expanse.
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Apr 24, 2015 00:20
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Jane the Virgin is the best suggestion thus far.
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Apr 24, 2015 00:35
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Oh, and two more recommendations, Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Marvel's Agent Carter. Both are stand alone, you don't need to be a comic book reader to keep up, the art direction and humor is amazing. I find a lot of people that watch Once watch S.H.I.E.L.D.
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Apr 24, 2015 01:16
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gmq posted:If I like this series (it's fun, a bit cheesy but it can have an emotional impact when it wants to) what else would I like? You may like The Librarians. Extremely cheesy, even moreso than Once Upon a Time, but also a lot of fun if you go in with the right mindset (the show doesn't take itself too seriously, and neither should you).
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Apr 24, 2015 04:22
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spronk posted:Game of Thrones (less cheese, more impact stuff) I love Game of Thrones, and I love Once, but I can't ever imagine recommending GoT to someone who is looking for a similar Once experience. Also it's quite jarring to go from HBO's actually-has-a-good-budget CG dragons to the... nearly claymation Malificent dragon we've been subjected to in recent weeks. Like wow that's even bad CG for a regular show
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Apr 24, 2015 04:32
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The reason there are so many recommendations is because "fun, a bit cheesy and can have an emotional impact when it wants to" describes the entire medium of television.
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Apr 24, 2015 04:45
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Macaluso posted:I love Game of Thrones, and I love Once, but I can't ever imagine recommending GoT to someone who is looking for a similar Once experience. For one, Snow White wasn't murdered while pregnant while Prince Charming was getting his head nailed on a pike. Though, that would be an awesome show for very different reasons.
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Apr 24, 2015 09:19
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I definitely second Buffy. It hits all the same chords for me as OUAT. It's got plenty of cheese factor (I mean, the main premise is "Buffy does kung fu on guys in monster costumes") but really knows how to tug on the heartstrings. Plus, they both have female leads who struggle with being the Chosen One. (Also, I think there's a lot in common between Rumple and Spike in terms of their story arcs, and they each happen to be my favorite character in their respective shows. Maybe it's the accents.)
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Apr 24, 2015 12:18
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Silent Linguist posted:I definitely second Buffy. It hits all the same chords for me as OUAT. It's got plenty of cheese factor (I mean, the main premise is "Buffy does kung fu on guys in monster costumes") but really knows how to tug on the heartstrings. Plus, they both have female leads who struggle with being the Chosen One. I'd say more Spike and Hook, but I caution Buffy. It does the same thing all Whedon shows do. Starts off all humor, cute, full of good character and feels. Then it hits you in the heart and soul with gut-wrenching sadness and angst. It's a trip. Nothing is ever as bright and happy after season 1.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:50
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Irish Joe posted:Jane the Virgin is the best suggestion thus far. Agreed.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:58
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Pan Dulce posted:I'd say more Spike and Hook, but I caution Buffy. It does the same thing all Whedon shows do. Starts off all humor, cute, full of good character and feels. Then it hits you in the heart and soul with gut-wrenching sadness and angst. It's a trip. Nothing is ever as bright and happy after season 1. When the happiest season has the main character dying you know you are in for a trip.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:00
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The 100 is my favorite show right now, and it's got plenty of drama and angst. But also Jane the Virgin.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:59
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Pan Dulce posted:I'd say more Spike and Hook, but I caution Buffy. Nah, Spike and Rumple. Their personalities are very different, but consider their stories: both start as meek but good-hearted people who accept Dark Power of some kind and are corrupted by it. They wreak havoc for a couple centuries but then suddenly face a moral crisis thanks to True Love. (Obviously the plots kind of diverge after that.)
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Apr 24, 2015 17:10
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gmq posted:If I like this series (it's fun, a bit cheesy but it can have an emotional impact when it wants to) what else would I like? It's only a mini series and it's a bit older, but 10th Kingdom. It deals with fairy tales from a Brothers Grimm take but it's just as cheesy with fun characters and a more fantasy styled adventure.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:25
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Spike sucks.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:58
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Bicyclops posted:Spike sucks. Of course he sucks, he's a vampire! 
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Apr 24, 2015 23:09
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