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PT6A posted:Uh huh. What about the five times it's listed at age 4? The reasoning is similar to how we rationalize not giving your child ten doses of their heart medication at once: too much of a good thing can often become a bad thing, even if - in fact, especially if - those things are important medications intended to produce a certain effect in the body. I'd explain it further, but the reason the argument is so widespread is precisely because it's incredibly intuitive and absurdly easy to understand, to the point where I'm starting to wonder if there's some willful ignorance going on here. Lemming posted:I think you're mistaken, you need to give them a small dilution of the thing that caused the autism. clearly you are not cynical enough
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Apr 20, 2015 19:26
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thespaceinvader posted:Homeopathy is the belief that they threw Bin Laden's body in the sea to cure terrorism. Doesn't it follow that adding a small amount is actually what makes the medicine work? Didn't we just make the ocean terrorism?
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Apr 20, 2015 20:10
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Main Paineframe posted:The reasoning is similar to how we rationalize not giving your child ten doses of their heart medication at once: too much of a good thing can often become a bad thing, even if - in fact, especially if - those things are important medications intended to produce a certain effect in the body. I'd explain it further, but the reason the argument is so widespread is precisely because it's incredibly intuitive and absurdly easy to understand, to the point where I'm starting to wonder if there's some willful ignorance going on here. The problem is that, unlike the question of "how many doses do I use", there's often no bright-line thinking or solid rationale involved in the "too many vaccinations" camp. I've heard people argue that a child should receive no more than X vaccines by age Y, usually some very small X for a ridiculous Y (like 5 vaccines by age 5), based at best on their own experiences ("I only get one vaccine a year on average as an adult") or simply on arbitrary magical thinking ("One vaccine a year is correct by this artificial construct I've called 'nature'"). When asked which vaccines their magic schedule would include, they often simultaneously refuse to answer and accuse the questioner of being a Big Pharma shill. The only reason it's "intuitive" is because people in general love their magical thinking and pareidolia, and if you're not coming at it from that mindset - especially if you're someone who tries to suppress that kind of thinking in yourself - it's anything but. I can't tell you how many times I've had to say to my friends/family, on this and other conspiracy-like topics, "yes, you're right, it doesn't make any sense unless you think about it like someone who doesn't believe in evidence". Kugyou no Tenshi fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 20:10
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Main Paineframe posted:The reasoning is similar to how we rationalize not giving your child ten doses of their heart medication at once: too much of a good thing can often become a bad thing, even if - in fact, especially if - those things are important medications intended to produce a certain effect in the body. I'd explain it further, but the reason the argument is so widespread is precisely because it's incredibly intuitive and absurdly easy to understand, to the point where I'm starting to wonder if there's some willful ignorance going on here. Like the fact that a child is exposed to a huge number of bacteria and viruses by simply being born or through nursing.
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Apr 20, 2015 20:10
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Solkanar512 posted:Like the fact that a child is exposed to a huge number of bacteria and viruses by simply being born or through nursing. Or shoving everything into their mouth, especially once they become mobile.
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Apr 20, 2015 20:21
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Solkanar512 posted:Like the fact that a child is exposed to a huge number of bacteria and viruses by simply being born or through nursing. My parents got (what sounds like) some good advice from my pediatrician when I was a baby, which was to not go around bleaching every single surface. The idea was that I would get exposed to bacteria and viruses, and develop some natural immunity. A lot of the anti-vax stuff sounds like that advice, taken to an unhealthy extreme.
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Apr 20, 2015 20:24
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Solkanar512 posted:Like the fact that a child is exposed to a huge number of bacteria and viruses by simply being born or through nursing. Very few of those are whooping cough, measles, or polio, however.
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Apr 20, 2015 20:45
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Main Paineframe posted:Very few of those are whooping cough, measles, or polio, however. Yes, but if someone is making the "OMG THERE"S SOOOOOOOO MANY IN THOSE BIG PHARMA SHOTS" it's a useful reminder to ask about the number of bacteria in the birth canal.
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Apr 20, 2015 20:55
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On Terra Firma posted:Doesn't it follow that adding a small amount is actually what makes the medicine work? Didn't we just make the ocean terrorism? Homeopathy bullshit is the idea that a small amount of a thing which causes a given symptom, treats the symptom. Bin Laden caused terrorism, therefore diluting him in water cures it. Homeopathy is loving stupid.
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Apr 20, 2015 21:05
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Homeopathy sort of makes sense in an 18th century context where all medicine was basically quackery so distilled water resulted in better patient outcomes than bloodletting or snake venom or whatever was trendy. From that angle, I don't really think it's awful for minor aches and pains where someone might seek out pain medication. But of course, the homeopaths don't limit themselves to harmlessness, they bash actual medicine while creating homeopathic inhalers for asthma.
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Apr 20, 2015 21:17
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Homeopathy sort of makes sense in an 18th century context where all medicine was basically quackery so distilled water resulted in better patient outcomes than bloodletting or snake venom or whatever was trendy. Or you get situations like many hospitals in the UK, where a private company is paid to provided homeopathic medicine instead of the hospital just running a tap or baking sugar pills at the onsite cafeteria.
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Apr 20, 2015 21:22
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Solkanar512 posted:Yes, but if someone is making the "OMG THERE"S SOOOOOOOO MANY IN THOSE BIG PHARMA SHOTS" it's a useful reminder to ask about the number of bacteria in the birth canal. Not really, since there are bacteria everywhere, and people get sick from them all the time. In fact, that reminder of yours just reinforces their incorrectness, since if there's whooping cough bacteria in the birth canal then the baby will probably catch whooping cough, whereas the point of the whooping cough vaccine is for the child to not catch whooping cough.
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Apr 20, 2015 21:36
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Homeopathy sort of makes sense in an 18th century context where all medicine was basically quackery so distilled water resulted in better patient outcomes than bloodletting or snake venom or whatever was trendy. It's a violation of basic principles of informed consent in medical treatment to give a patient a treatment that doesn't work- in part because it places the clinician in a position of absolute power over the recipient of care.
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Apr 20, 2015 23:48
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PT6A posted:"Or, failing that, pump bleach up their rear end." -- A thing that people actually said and then did I strongly disagree with your CPS comment. CPS often times gently caress up families and cause more trouble than its worth. Your typical-get-his-rear end-kicked-by-dad child will never be helped by them because its too hard, but they will break up perfectly good families on a stupid baseless complaint however. Anyways, sorry for the derail.
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Apr 21, 2015 03:17
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eNeMeE posted:No more exemptions for Christian Scientists in Australia to allow them to continue receiving childcare benefits. Nor are they going to allow any other religious exemptions. Why do you anticipate a backlash? The Christian Scientists came out and said that there is no religious objection to it- they just think prayer is more effective. Are there any religious groups that have doctrine banning vaccinations? (Not "my personal religion that I just made up har har, you have to take me seriously even though it's obviously not a deeply held belief" which rightly doesn't get a look in) EDIT: To clarify, part of the reason the exemption was removed was because the spokeswoman for the church came out and said they were neutral on the issue. If there had been some objection/defence by the church I'm think the exemption would have stayed in place. Strong Convections fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 03:21
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Strong Convections posted:Why do you anticipate a backlash? Most Amish tend to avoid it, but since their doctrine is by tradition determined at the congregation level there's no religion-wide prohibition.
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Apr 21, 2015 03:24
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Dalael posted:I strongly disagree with your CPS comment. CPS often times gently caress up families and cause more trouble than its worth. Your typical-get-his-rear end-kicked-by-dad child will never be helped by them because its too hard, but they will break up perfectly good families on a stupid baseless complaint[1] however. 1Source: that one episode of the Simpsons where the cat knocks a plate of food on Abe Simpson right before CPS comes in and takes away Bart and Lisa for being raised in filth
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Apr 21, 2015 03:29
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MattO posted:The water on Earth has so much memory in it by now, it's all crazy. This crazy old water is giving our kids the 'tism. So now I can literally drink to forget? Awesome.
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Apr 21, 2015 03:41
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Dalael posted:I strongly disagree with your CPS comment. CPS often times gently caress up families and cause more trouble than its worth. Your typical-get-his-rear end-kicked-by-dad child will never be helped by them because its too hard, but they will break up perfectly good families on a stupid baseless complaint however. Because CPS has been imperfect at least once, I too think that people should be allowed to introduce noxious substances into their child's assholes without the drat nanny government getting in their business. Makes sense!
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Apr 21, 2015 03:47
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PT6A posted:Because CPS has been imperfect at least once, I too think that people should be allowed to introduce noxious substances into their child's assholes without the drat nanny government getting in their business. To be fair, they have been imperfect and hosed up good families way more than once. E: In my country anyways.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:21
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Dalael posted:To be fair, they have been imperfect and hosed up good families way more than once. I know of dozens of cases of people dying on the operating table. Clearly that means that we should get rid of surgeons.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:28
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MattO posted:The water on Earth has so much memory in it by now, it's all crazy. This crazy old water is giving our kids the 'tism. Ugh don't be an idiot. For the essence of the medicine to be imprinted in the water's memory , you have to shake it in the right magic way. That's what you're paying for: the shaking.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:29
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Dalael posted:To be fair, they have been imperfect and hosed up good families way more than once. In the same way that heart surgery kills a few people and saves tens of thousands of lives, sure.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:31
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Nintendo Kid posted:In the same way that heart surgery kills a few people and saves tens of thousands of lives, sure. Or in the same way that some people do suffer complications from vaccines 
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Apr 21, 2015 04:32
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Dirk the Average posted:I know of dozens of cases of people dying on the operating table. Clearly that means that we should get rid of surgeons. We are not talking about a few dozen cases here. We're talking about many thousands of case of CPS (in Canada anyways) mishandling these cases and not giving a poo poo about real case. My point is, giving MORE power to CPS is not the way to go. Which was PT6A suggested. There is a big loving difference between saying: I don't agree that they need more power (Which is what I have said) and lets get rid of the whole loving thing (which is what you are implying I said).
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Apr 21, 2015 04:35
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Dalael posted:We are not talking about a few dozen cases here. We're talking about many thousands of case of CPS (in Canada anyways) mishandling these cases and not giving a poo poo about real case. Uh, actually it is. More power and more resources is how they can not mishandle cases, and not end up ignoring "real cases".
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Apr 21, 2015 04:36
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Is this going to turn out like the E/N goon who was bitching about CPS taking his kids, and then it turned out he was living in his own filth and neglecting them (or maybe he just had one daughter; I can't recall)? At least he ended up getting his act together and he got his kids back. The system works! 
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Apr 21, 2015 04:36
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PT6A posted:Is this going to turn out like the E/N goon who was bitching about CPS taking his kids, and then it turned out he was living in his own filth and neglecting them (or maybe he just had one daughter; I can't recall)? Two kids, and he bought a gaming computer for WOW of all things that cost more than his deteriorating trailer (with soft floors you had to avoid) was worth.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:37
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Nintendo Kid posted:Uh, actually it is. More power and more resources is how they can not mishandle cases, and not end up ignoring "real cases". Okay. Sure. Government is always the answer, and giving more power and more money to a government agency is a sure-proof way to ensure they no longer makes any kind of gently caress-ups. That has never back-fired, right? http://www.globalresearch.ca/beware-child-protective-services-what-victims-advocates-and-mandated-reporters-need-to-know/5395670 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Protective_Services#CPS_problem_reports quote:Effectiveness Point is, in many documented case, Child Protective services failed to protect the children by taking them to a worst environment. Giving them more money and power is not the way to go. Making sure they use their power and money in a more effective way is the first issue that needs to be addressed. Dalael fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 04:41
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Dalael posted:We are not talking about a few dozen cases here. We're talking about many thousands of case of CPS (in Canada anyways) mishandling these cases and not giving a poo poo about real case. You are aware that there are just as many, if not more, cases of people dying in the OR, right? Surgery is very risky. That's more or less irrelevant though. CPS needs to be able to protect children from being in dangerous situations. If they can't protect a child from parental abuse, as you implied earlier, then something needs to be changed so they can. An increase in power along with an increase in oversight might do the trick, but ultimately that would require more funding. Amusingly, there is a parallel with medicine here, where we work constantly to decrease the death rate during surgery (typically via minimally invasive techniques). This is analogous to situations where CPS acts incorrectly and inadvertently lowers the quality of life of the child they're supposed to help. It is possible to work on both of those issues with CPS concurrently.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:46
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Discendo Vox posted:It's a violation of basic principles of informed consent in medical treatment to give a patient a treatment that doesn't work- in part because it places the clinician in a position of absolute power over the recipient of care. I want to be clear, no medical professional should ever prescribe homeopathic remedies outside of a research context where the patient is aware that they may or may not be getting real medicine. I'm just saying that it isn't disastrous for someone with a mild cold to buy vitamin C or homeopathic remedies instead of something that has actual medicine in it.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:47
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Dirk the Average posted:You are aware that there are just as many, if not more, cases of people dying in the OR, right? Surgery is very risky. That's more or less irrelevant though. I completely agree with that. I do NOT advocate for CPS to be disbanded or anything like that. But I don't think that just giving them more power is a good way to go about it. quote:Its like handing a gun to a 6 years old Wade. You don't know how its gonna end, but you know it'll make the papers. - Max.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:48
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Dalael posted:I completely agree with that. I do NOT advocate for CPS to be disbanded or anything like that. But I don't think that just giving them more power is a good way to go about it. The problem in this case is that per your own statement earlier, you mentioned that they don't have enough power to help children who actually need help. Not having enough power is actually a major impediment that makes them unable to do their job. Yes, they gently caress up on occasion. Every system fucks up on occasion. The criminal justice system fucks up, doctors gently caress up, surgeons gently caress up, regulatory bodies across all industries gently caress up, etc. Simply pointing to data that says that they don't have a perfect track record does not mean that they don't need more power. What it means is that they need more oversight so that the edge cases where they gently caress up are caught and good families aren't harmed. It is possible to do both at the same time, but it does require money.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:57
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Tochiazuma posted:Finally some sanity in Ontario I skimmed this, saw Ontario, Harper on the side of science, and my brain broke for a minute. CPS needs a much bigger budget so they can actually hire enough people to be able to do everything they need to do. I'd also like more inspectors for everything, and a unicorn that craps delicious popcorn.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:58
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http://thegarynullshow.podbean.com/e/the-gary-null-show-042015/
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Apr 21, 2015 04:58
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Dirk the Average posted:The problem in this case is that per your own statement earlier, you mentioned that they don't have enough power to help children who actually need help. But I didn't? Seriously, I am re-reading all my posts and i can't find one sentence in which I said they do not have enough power to help children. Anyways, 'nuff about this derail. Lets get back to the issue at hand: People who think homeopathy will heal broken bones and vaccines are created by Dr. Evil.
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Apr 21, 2015 05:05
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Dalael posted:But I didn't? Dalael posted:I strongly disagree with your CPS comment. CPS often times gently caress up families and cause more trouble than its worth. Your typical-get-his-rear end-kicked-by-dad child will never be helped by them because its too hard, but they will break up perfectly good families on a stupid baseless complaint however. Regardless though, yeah, homeopathy is bullshit. The Mitchell and Webb bit on how a homeopathic ER would look is hilarious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
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Apr 21, 2015 05:10
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VitalSigns posted:Ugh don't be an idiot. Brb starting a homeopathy business with Michael J. Fox.
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Apr 21, 2015 05:11
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Dalael posted:Okay. Sure. Government is always the answer, and giving more power and more money to a government agency is a sure-proof way to ensure they no longer makes any kind of gently caress-ups. Yes, unironically you loon. CPS primarily fucks up because they're understaffed, underpaid and overworked.
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Apr 21, 2015 05:14
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Nintendo Kid posted:Yes, unironically you loon. CPS primarily fucks up because they're understaffed, underpaid and overworked. For those of you who speak french, here are two nice documentary that was made regarding Child Protection Service in Quebec.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JepCAyXZsBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym3pvVHsVQ8 I apologize, I cannot find an english equivalent for it. Also, maybe the problem really is just a Quebec thing and we are badly failing at protecting our childrens.  E: Also, I hear the same thing applies to the IRS. They're understaffed, underpaid and overworked. Maybe they should increases your taxes to fix that problem? Here government: 
Dalael fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 05:19
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