|
All this stuff is front and center in 1st edition. You're wardens of the boundary between flesh and spirit, but twisted hybrid mutants by the standards of either side, so wherever you go and whatever you do you have to deal with either being incredibly dangerous to your surroundings or in great danger from your surroundings. 2E's changed, like, nothing in the way of lore and setting (which I'm glad for).
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 12:41 |
|
|
Kurieg posted:Because you're the spiritual police pressed into service under threat of your own life? You normally don't have time to be creeped out when the poo poo you're dealing with is trying to kill you. I guess the Hosts are super creepy but that only really works once. The creeping realization that you and everyone you care about is destined to die a violent and perhaps pointless death in the name of an insane and distant god
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 06:11
|
|
|
It's the transition from Laird Baron to Thomas Ligotti in tone, really. LB is often pulpy, things get done, and while struggling is usually futile, it's at least an option. TL... Not so much. Inevitability and entropy become dominant.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 06:17
|
|
|
It's relevant to remember that nWolf's "mission" was initially more than a little confusing for oWolf players. The huge, world-wrecking antagonists were gone, and now your job is to shepherd and hall-monitor spirits. No, not banes. Just, you know, spirits.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 06:27
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:The creeping realization that you and everyone you care about is destined to die a violent and perhaps pointless death in the name of an insane and distant god Yeah. That's not really a game I want to play. The themes are the same but to me it was mostly a matter of presentation. The tribes in 1e were depicted as actively antagonistic. New werewolves were threats to be driven out or killed. Your painful death in failure and ignomy isn't just a worst case scenario it's an inevitability. Family and friends are attachments to be exploited by your enemies and should only be interacted with for breeding purposes. 2e shows the tribes as cooperative and willing to interact for the greater good, puts humans as an important part of a werewolf's life(and are less prone to dying horribly due to a botched roll unless you're imbalanced), and is generally more positive about your overall chances of success.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 06:37
|
|
|
I really have no idea what you're talking about at all. The 1E corebook didn't present werewolves as pointlessly antagonistic and doomed to infinite hellfailure or whatever. If anything, the premise that the Pure outnumbered the Forsaken probably made the Tribes too cohesive. The game in general was about getting small victories to snowball, taking care of and improving your own little territory and eventually growing it, etc. It seriously sounds like you're mixing up the couple-paragraph blurbs describing the Pure tribes with the rest of the text in the corebook - that's the only place I remember humans as nothing but breeding stock, new werewolves as convert-or-die fodder, etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 06:55
|
|
|
A good rule of thumb for WtF factions is that if it sounds like something the Garou would have done, it is probably the Pure's fault (because they are literally the Garou).
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 08:23
|
|
|
Blame the seers. Join the council.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 08:34
|
|
|
Tulul posted:A good rule of thumb for WtF factions is that if it sounds like something the Garou would have done, it is probably the Pure's fault (because they are literally the Garou). W:TA Gm I play with thinks the pure tribes sound a lot more interesting than the moon guys, mind you he doesnt like either mage so gently caress him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 10:19
|
|
|
This is fascinating because I've always heard of Werewolf as being about White Guilt and Noble Savages.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 17:07
|
|
|
I think you're thinking of Apocalypse, which more or less was.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 17:12
|
|
|
Luminous Obscurity posted:I think you're thinking of Apocalypse, which more or less was. this is entirely possible because I've always been bad at differentiating between OWoD and NWoD
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 17:13
|
|
|
Yeah, that's Apocalypse at its worst. Forsaken, now... Well, you've always been angry. You've always been different - too angry, too mean, too quick to judge. And one night, it all built up. As the moon rose, it all become too much. You changed, and it was glorious and terrible. You let loose all the anger, all the frustration, all the hunger that you always held in check. It was exhilarating! Until that night, you had never truly been alive. And when you woke up, you were covered in blood, naked and still smiling. That's when they found you. They explained to you - you felt different because you were. Because you are more than human. They don't see the world as it is. You are more than flesh and bone. That hunger within you, that anger, they are more than anger and hunger. You are spirit as much as flesh. And you have a duty, they said. We have a duty. To feed that hunger, and to stake a claim. They told you about Father Wolf and Mother Luna. About the history of your kind, of werewolves. But that really wasn't what you cared about. That was ancient history. What mattered now was the world around you. They took you in, and they taught you to hunt. That was important - and it was the greatest joy you'd ever felt. Stalking the prey, cornering them, harrying them, chasing - and, at the end, making the kill. You still remember the feeling of tearing the meat with your teeth. Though it wasn't meat, really. Living steel, a spirit of metal and bone. And that was amazing, too. To see a world that no one else would know, to see creatures who treated you with fear and respect - creatures alien to anything you had ever seen. They hated you, to be sure, but they feared you, too. They knew - this is your patch. Your territory. And you know it, too. Consecrated with blood, again and again. You have named your enemies, and you have given yourself to the hunt. It is a fine line, walking between man and spirit, but you manage it. And every hunt, you are stronger, better. Every kill, you reinforce your sacred claim. There is no greater joy than this. The wolf must hunt.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 17:22
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:Yeah, that's Apocalypse at its worst. Forsaken, now... Yeah, the creeping realization that you and everyone you care about is destined to die a violent and perhaps pointless death in the name of an insane and distant god
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 17:38
|
|
|
Is there really such a thing as a death that isn't ultimately pointless? Especially in the World of Darkness.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 17:44
|
|
|
A Moros would probably say meaningless rather than pointless but that's kind of a distinction without a difference.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 18:07
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:Is there really such a thing as a death that isn't ultimately pointless? Especially in the World of Darkness. Euthanatos 4 lyfe
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 18:11
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:Yeah, the creeping realization that you and everyone you care about is destined to die a violent and perhaps pointless death in the name of an insane and distant god I think that after a while the forsaken realize that whatever Luna wants out of the deal is mostly irrelevant. You hunt because you must, it's in your blood. If you die in the hunt then it was a good death, and hopefully your pack will avenge you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 18:45
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:Is there really such a thing as a death that isn't ultimately pointless? Especially in the World of Darkness. This is the kind of question that produces actual subversion and interesting character development, which is why Beast is so frustrating. What If The Good Guys Were The Bad Guys is so straightforward that it's cliche. But what about a werewolf with survivor's guilt, who never expected to be the one to actually live, and questions the worth of knowing exactly what you are, if you don't like what you are? Or a mage who believes in the free council's ideals, but can't handle the actual reality of maybe dying in front of her loved ones, so she runs really far away from home to where she doesn't know anybody, and has to strike out on her own, because she thinks she'd be okay with dying where no one would miss her? Or a vampire who is doubly dissatisfied with the crazy violence of the Invictus AND the standard self-actualization spiel of the Ordo Dracul, and is looking for answers in a place nobody's ever actually explored before? The tension between the platonic ideal and archetypes of whatever line you're running, and the actual emotional reality of the human being you're playing, is way more interesting to play and consider than an Uber terrorist who gets his kicks dropping rich people off in slums or whatever the gently caress
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 18:49
|
|
|
A badass and perhaps epic death*
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
Is it strange with all the weird things you could potentially play inside of nWoD, I really just want to play Hunter so bad? Whenever I bring it up to the guys I play with on occasion they just shrug it off and say "Nah, I'd rather just play Vampire and have cool powers and not die if I get shot". Something about the thought of being a mostly normal person in a desperately hosed up situation kind of appeals to me. Vampires stalk the night feasting on the unsuspecting. Mages hide among us and ply their dark powers in secret. Werewolves walk the countryside leaving a wake of destruction in their path. Demons strike bargains and destroy people's souls to give themselves cover from the poo poo that hunts them. You have to band together with your fellows to fell the things that would use us as playtoys, and you do it with a shotgun and pure force of will alone. The PTSD and paranoia just come along for the ride. What I'm trying to say is I kind of wish there was an active Hunter PBP going or something. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
DeathSandwich posted:Is it strange with all the weird things you could potentially play inside of nWoD, I really just want to play Hunter so bad? Whenever I bring it up to the guys I play with on occasion they just shrug it off and say "Nah, I'd rather just play Vampire and have cool powers and not die if I get shot". Hunter is probably my favorite splat, followed closely by mage.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 19:28
|
|
|
DeathSandwich posted:Is it strange with all the weird things you could potentially play inside of nWoD, I really just want to play Hunter so bad? Whenever I bring it up to the guys I play with on occasion they just shrug it off and say "Nah, I'd rather just play Vampire and have cool powers and not die if I get shot". I mean, it's cool that you like Hunter and all, and this is certainly a game you can play using the line, but what you're describing is the compact-size Union game, with actual Union elements probably toned way down. Not all of Hunter. Most of Hunter is vastly different, tonally, than the above; there's a whole lot of chaff in that product, and a whole lot of the time you are only relatively outclassed and outgunned -- especially if you're part of a conspiracy. The "line" that fully and completely supports what you're talking about here is core WoD, played with mortal PCs. Crion fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Apr 21, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 19:39
|
|
|
Hunter is my favorite nWoD splat and I wish it were getting a second edition before Changeling or Promethean. I really enjoy the backdrop theme throughout the book of the psychotic and obsessive mindset you need to adopt to survive the Vigil slowly turning you superhuman by itself. That continued, willful confrontation of the Darkness isn't something just anybody can do, it takes a special kind of person to fan that ember. Not even just strength of character, but this perverse something that draws Hunters almost as far away from humanity as their quarry. The Code, Slashers, risking willpower, practical experience-- magnificent, and I hope that side of things gets expanded on in lieu of more Knights of St. Splatfucker Conspiracies if they ever get around to it.Crion posted:I mean, it's cool that you like Hunter and all, and this is certainly a game you can play using the line, but what you're describing is the compact-size Union game. Not all of Hunter. There's a whole lot of chaff in that product. Yeah. Endowments are a thematic mess and Conspiracies in general have a problem with being inorganically disconnected from the ideas established in the core chapters. They make great antagonists for other splats, at least.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
Yes but in defense of Conspiracy games: "In 2012, a crack TF:V unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit." Crion posted:I mean, it's cool that you like Hunter and all, and this is certainly a game you can play using the line, but what you're describing is the compact-size Union game. Not all of Hunter. There's a whole lot of chaff in that product, and a whole lot of the time you are only relatively outclassed and outgunned -- especially if you're part of a conspiracy. They could also be describing practically any "Tier 1" game where the PCs are just some friends/family/co-workers fighting monsters. Compacts still have a level of organization that baseline Hunter games don't. Also, Mortals games don't really operate like Hunter. They're more about investigating something spooky or dealing with a single problem. Hunter is about going out and actively fighting and killing spooky monsters, regardless of how organized you are.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:02
|
|
|
I've said before, and I still believe, that Hunter is the scariest WoD line both in terms of how bleak it is and in terms of how uncomfortable and sinister the questions it asks of its players and player-characters are.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:03
|
|
|
My only experience playing oWoD unmodified was a Hunter game and I tell you what, killing the fuckers who pass for 'protagonists' in other lines was pure catharsis. Our GM ran it like an action movie so there weren't real risks of collateral damage and we went with the idea that 'You know, these things eat human beings and want to continue doing it, we're up for fighting back.' I've also run Hunter myself, twice, never using the Storyteller system and modifying the setting some, but it was equally fun to use it to ask the uncomfortable questions about why it feels good to murder these things and what the hell the critters empowering you get out of the deal. I appreciate a setup that can be used for dark faustian self-reflection and/or turning your brain off and ashing some smug vampires with cool plans and explosives. I know the whole Messenger thing was dropped in New Hunter, but I'm pretty sure the general metaphor of 'Why does this feel good, what does it say about me that I'm willing to do this, what am I willing to do to win and how crazy am I going to go?' is still the main theme, yeah?
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:11
|
|
|
I think we found Beast's target audience!
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:12
|
|
|
The Conspiracies, minus the one from the Werewoof book and the Ascending Ones, are all great and thematic. There's something of a disconnect with the Compacts, more.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:16
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:I've said before, and I still believe, that Hunter is the scariest WoD line both in terms of how bleak it is and in terms of how uncomfortable and sinister the questions it asks of its players and player-characters are. Well. It was... until Beast introduced us to jerkoff cabbie and hoodie school girl's lunch period revenge daydream.  Wrap it up, Hunters.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Werewoof This is not okay.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
Werewoof, werewoof, werewoof is on fire! We don't need no Essence let the motherfucker burn!
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:18
|
|
|
Is New Hunter about as bleak as the original? I remember in the Original it was pretty clear that the Messengers weren't up to anything good either, most of your powers really didn't work very well, most of the supernatural enemies were nearly invincible and had 4 turns to your 1, and there was a strong implication you might just be schizophrenic.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:18
|
|
|
Luminous Obscurity posted:Yes but in defense of Conspiracy games: "Mostly normal people in a desperately hosed up situation they have to band together to fight" says to me street-level people with day jobs who aren't looking for a fight, but who found one and now have to deal with it. That is the Union or it's a Mortals game. Hunters, by and large, are not "mostly normal" people, and I don't mean that in the sense that they lack superpowers. They are generally speaking NOT groups of friends/families/co-workers (excepting the Union) unless those friendships, families, or jobs are themselves outside the bounds of "mostly normal." And I don't care what size it is, no member of an Ashwood Abbey or Bear Large compact is a "mostly normal" person. Crion fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Apr 21, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:19
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The Conspiracies, minus the one from the Werewoof book and the Ascending Ones, are all great and thematic. There's something of a disconnect with the Compacts, more. Yeah, I'm not saying Hunter isn't a coherent or consistent game in dealing with its actual themes. But playing the scared, banded-together cast of a horror movie that knows where the shotgun's kept in the house and is gonna kill that fucker for what it did to Terry is, at best, a very small, niche part of what Hunter is about, and at worst, is just a straight-up Mortals game. Hunter is a game that's more about arrogance than fear.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:22
|
|
Night10194 posted:Is New Hunter about as bleak as the original? I remember in the Original it was pretty clear that the Messengers weren't up to anything good either, most of your powers really didn't work very well, most of the supernatural enemies were nearly invincible and had 4 turns to your 1, and there was a strong implication you might just be schizophrenic. nHunter's sample antagonists are 1 white-hat, 2 innocents, 1 grey-hat, and 1 outright villain. The system is set up so that the best way to avoid complete insanity is to remake yourself into a psychopathic but functional serial killer.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:23
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:nHunter's sample antagonists are 1 white-hat, 2 innocents, 1 grey-hat, and 1 outright villain. The system is set up so that the best way to avoid complete insanity is to remake yourself into a psychopathic but functional serial killer. That seems to be the case in a lot of the World of Darkness, honestly. I'm guessing the main difference is you start Hunter relatively sane, instead of beginning the game with a lust for human blood and treachery, an inbuilt urge to hunt and kill, or a completely alien mindset and an edgar suit? Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Apr 21, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The Conspiracies, minus the one from the Werewoof book and the Ascending Ones, are all great and thematic. There's something of a disconnect with the Compacts, more. MAn, the Ascending Ones are loving great. Drug-dealers and criminals who use their illicit activities to fund the Hunt, what's not to love?
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:48
|
|
|
Crion posted:"Mostly normal people in a desperately hosed up situation they have to band together to fight" says to me street-level people with day jobs who aren't looking for a fight, but who found one and now have to deal with it. That is the Union or it's a Mortals game. Hunters, by and large, are not "mostly normal" people, and I don't mean that in the sense that they lack superpowers. They are generally speaking NOT groups of friends/families/co-workers (excepting the Union) unless those friendships, families, or jobs are themselves outside the bounds of "mostly normal." And I don't care what size it is, no member of an Ashwood Abbey or Bear Large compact is a "mostly normal" person. I mean you could do the generally logical thing suggested in the Cell/Compact/Conspiracy description and have a Cell of Hunters lead into a Compact as they grow in size and organisation, or have them picked up into an existing Compact or Conspiracy, but the core of Hunter is "mostly mortals, fighting monsters, don't go crazy" > "which organisation do I belong to?" unless I misread it. If someone wants to play Hunter for the themes they like in it, then let them play Hunter without needing to categorise it as a specific Compact/Conspiracy, or insisting that they aren't really playing Hunter. That's veering towards No True Scotsman territory a bit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 12:41 |
|
|
Effectronica posted:The Conspiracies, minus the one from the Werewoof book and the Ascending Ones, are all great and thematic. There's something of a disconnect with the Compacts, more. Powerful shadowy organizations pulling experienced monster hunters into their employ is cool. I like Cheiron, and I think TF:V and The Ascending Ones would work as that with minor tweaking. The general idea behind Conspiracies is sound, but they're too disconnected from the other tiers, I only remember throwaway lines about how they started off "just like you!" in the distant past, if that. They kind of revise the "why" of the Vigil. Malleus isn't about playing a Hunter who discovers and practices her Vigil on her own terms as it is about playing an Endowed agent of the Catholic Church. And they're all kind of like that. Compacts are more about the "how", and still feel organically connected to tier one even if some of them get left out in the cold in terms of support for what they do.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 20:50
|
|