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TURN IT OFF! posted:Yes the "but everyone else is doing it too" legal defense. It works so well for five-year-olds. See 85th percentile speeds. It actually creates a defense in California to speeding. It creates a defense to negligence too, which is likely an element of careless in FL and certainly is in CA to reckless. I'll bet that that road didn't have a valid speed survey on it. This is more for the traffic engineering thread, but most speed limits have no basis in traffic engineering. Because of that simply exceeding them really doesn't tell you much for a criminal case. TURN IT OFF! posted:America: Where killing someone is a misdemeanor - as it should be! nm fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 18:32
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GreyPowerVan posted:I actually do believe that hitting someone when driving 15 over the speed limit and killing them should be more than a misdemeanor. no, you're just kneejerking
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Apr 23, 2015 18:34
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What are a few fatal accidents when they happen in the fight against unjust speed limits? Ra Ra Fight The Power!
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Apr 23, 2015 18:34
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:no, you're just kneejerking A man died because a police officer struck him from behind travelling at 15 above the speed limit, more on how this means no one can have a valid opinion besides "IT WERENT HIS FAULT" at 11. edit: quote instead of edit whoops. Either way, normal people get tickets all the time for going 15 above, even on roads where it's 'accepted' to speed.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:35
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What is the benefit of making traffic violations more severe for the offender? Can you give me some tangible societal benefit?
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Apr 23, 2015 18:36
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GreyPowerVan posted:A man died because a police officer struck him from behind travelling at 15 above the speed limit, more on how this means no one can have a valid opinion besides "IT WERENT HIS FAULT" at 11. No one is saying it isn't his fault, not even the prosecutor. What we're saying is that this has jackshit to do with police reform. Also, god forbid someone brings what the law is into things instead of knee jerk "hang the cop!" bullshit.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:37
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Vahakyla posted:What is the benefit of making traffic violations more severe for the offender? Can you give me some tangible societal benefit? A person being killed is now a 'traffic violation' interesting.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:37
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GreyPowerVan posted:A man died because a police officer struck him from behind travelling at 15 above the speed limit, more on how this means no one can have a valid opinion besides "IT WERENT HIS FAULT" at 11. he got a ticket
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Apr 23, 2015 18:39
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:he got a ticket And a man is dead.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:39
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GreyPowerVan posted:And a man is dead. and he'll get sued, and will probably lose. not all killings are even criminal.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:40
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Lemming posted:I wasn't talking about the case where the cop hit the guy on the motorcycle. He seemed to go beyond that scenario as well. GreyPowerVan posted:I actually do believe that hitting someone when driving 15 over the speed limit and killing them should be more than a misdemeanor. What about 10 over? 5? What if the victim is contributorily negligent? Sometimes bad poo poo happens without felonious conduct.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:40
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GreyPowerVan posted:A person being killed is now a 'traffic violation' We don't put people in jail for traffic accidents, what the gently caress is wrong with you.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:41
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GreyPowerVan posted:A person being killed is now a 'traffic violation' What is the advantage of paying $40k per year to house someone who was in an accident and will almost certainly never do it again until your punishment fetish is satisfied. Also note that when he's in prison he can't really pay off any damages to the family while making license plates for .60 cents per hour. He's also likely get hep c and maybe hiv, which will increase his burden on society afterwards. But the cop went to jail! Yay!
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Apr 23, 2015 18:41
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Jarmak posted:We don't put people in jail for traffic accidents, what the gently caress is wrong with you. But HE'S A COP!!!!!!!!
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Apr 23, 2015 18:43
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ActusRhesus posted:What about 10 over? 5? What if the victim is contributorily negligent? Those are different cases. In a lot of places there are differing laws for someone speeding less than 15 mph over the speed limit. I believe Florida is one of those. It's more than just 'careless' to be driving so badly that you hit and kill a man.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:43
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GreyPowerVan posted:Those are different cases. In a lot of places there are differing laws for someone speeding less than 15 mph over the speed limit. I believe Florida is one of those. It's more than just 'careless' to be driving so badly that you hit and kill a man. Why? Please present in an IRAC format and bluebook your sources. You're pulling law from your rear end and arguing with real lawyers (tm) without backing anything up. It turns out doing poo poo you don't like, even if it kills people, isn't a felony unless it fits some specific elements.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:45
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nm posted:What is the advantage of paying $40k per year to house someone who was in an accident and will almost certainly never do it again until your punishment fetish is satisfied. I definitely said "put him in jail" here. It appears to me that he is an unsafe driver and is maybe not suited for a job that requires people to sometimes drive at excessive speeds while responding to a call. I don't think that's what he was doing when he hit the motorcycle. That's the problem lol at anyone here who thinks I have a punishment fetish. My own posts in this thead have been against the death penalty and against excessive imprisonment for almost every offense. nm posted:Why? Please present in an IRAC format and bluebook your sources. Not sure if it's different laws but it's treated different at least. 
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Apr 23, 2015 18:45
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GreyPowerVan posted:Those are different cases. In a lot of places there are differing laws for someone speeding less than 15 mph over the speed limit. I believe Florida is one of those. It's more than just 'careless' to be driving so badly that you hit and kill a man. Got it. 10 over=oopsie 15 over = felony with sentencing enhancement for driving while copping. What if the victim was texting? Drunk? Not wearing a seatbelt?
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Apr 23, 2015 18:46
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GreyPowerVan posted:I definitely said "put him in jail" here. It appears to me that he is an unsafe driver and is maybe not suited for a job that requires people to sometimes drive at excessive speeds while responding to a call. I don't think that's what he was doing when he hit the motorcycle. That's the problem What is the difference between the misdemeanor he's charged with an a felony? A long state prison sentence. If you're gonna argue that charging him with a misdo isn't enough, you should probably research what that means.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:47
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GreyPowerVan posted:
And he will certainly pay more than that. He might even get probation and/or be sentenced to jail, so I'm not sure what your issue is. Also, just because the court baseline fines are different doesn't mean that the law treats it differently. It may, but that doesn't impact a criminal charge.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:49
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GreyPowerVan posted:I definitely said "put him in jail" here. It appears to me that he is an unsafe driver and is maybe not suited for a job that requires people to sometimes drive at excessive speeds while responding to a call. I don't think that's what he was doing when he hit the motorcycle. That's the problem Based on loving what? That he was going 65 in a 50 on a three lane highway? Going 15 over on some highways makes you the slowest car on the road.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:49
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GreyPowerVan posted:Those are different cases. In a lot of places there are differing laws for someone speeding less than 15 mph over the speed limit. I believe Florida is one of those. It's more than just 'careless' to be driving so badly that you hit and kill a man. A motorcyclist without gear could fall, hit his head and die driving 5mph. Also fun fact, killing a pedestrian in a crosswalk often just results in the charge "failure to yield"
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Apr 23, 2015 18:49
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My bad. I'm headed to work. I'll follow the speed limit on the way there and do my best to not get into any accidents. Hopefully I don't kill a man by driving awfully! Even if I did, it's nbd really, all I have to do is pay a ticket. EDit: I'm looking up some Florida law and a lot of people get their DUI reduced to Careless Driving. This is literally less severe than driving drunk and getting pulled over. I really am going to work though, so I'll be gone for a bit. nm posted:What is the difference between the misdemeanor he's charged with an a felony? A long state prison sentence. If you're gonna argue that charging him with a misdo isn't enough, you should probably research what that means. I'm sorry, what I meant to say was "maybe he should have more done than a civil fine and a slap on the wrist" is that better? I don't want him going to prison over this. hobbesmaster posted:Also fun fact, killing a pedestrian in a crosswalk often just results in the charge "failure to yield" That is not a good thing.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:49
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Penalties in various states for simple speeding causing death on some really quick research: Michigan: misdemeanor up to a year, $2,000 fine Arizona: traffic school and community service Utah: misdemeanor and lose your license for a year Delaware: misdemeanor Florida: community service they're trying to make it a misdeameanor WhiskeyJuvenile fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 18:51
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nm posted:
This is not a new phenomenon.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:51
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GreyPowerVan posted:My bad. I'm headed to work. I'll follow the speed limit on the way there and do my best to not get into any accidents. Hopefully I don't kill a man by driving awfully! Even if I did, it's nbd really, all I have to do is pay a ticket. It should be less severe then drunk driving.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:52
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GreyPowerVan posted:My bad. I'm headed to work. I'll follow the speed limit on the way there and do my best to not get into any accidents. Hopefully I don't kill a man by driving awfully! Even if I did, it's nbd really, all I have to do is pay a ticket. I've found the problem, you think a misdemeanor is a traffic infraction. People very often go to jail for misdemeanors. This is why asking questions instead of jumping in angry about killers! is a great idea. ActusRhesus posted:This is not a new phenomenon. There is not enough sarcasm on the internet to respond to this properly.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:52
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nm posted:I've found the problem, you think a misdemeanor is a traffic infraction. People very often go to jail for misdemeanors. Do people usually go to jail for their first misdemeanor?
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Apr 23, 2015 18:55
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Do people usually go to jail for their first misdemeanor? If it invokes killing, it often happens.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:55
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nm posted:If it invokes killing, it often happens. Google's giving me a lot of suspended sentences, but I'll defer.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:57
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It's one thing to be right about something and it's another to be a dick about it. It's pretty understandable that somebody might have an emotional reaction to the situation. Being a bunch of condescending assholes about it only reinforces peoples' idea of lawyers being heartless lizard people. And makes you feel cool I guess.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:57
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Look nm, just because you are an incompetent PD who hides behind Strickland while helping oppress poors... (Seriously. Lol at incompetent pd meme. Last pd we hired had to beat out like 500 or so applicants and has over 20 years private practice.)
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Apr 23, 2015 18:58
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Obdicut posted:Did you read what I posted on the horrible state of these reporting statistics? If you think that the problem is that data about officer-involved homicides isn't being reported on the local level, I would like someone to tell me where these departments are than an officer can kill someone in the line of duty and not have to make any sort of formal written report about the event. I don't think I want to move to those places. If, like me, you believe that the data is being collected somewhere but not being reported or aggregated at the federal level, I'd like to know how you think we can do better than the BJS' attempt to do exactly that, without repealing the 10th amendment. Obdicut posted:I don't understand why that's getting you so twisted up. EDIT: Oh, hey, here's a fun game: Decide which of the dead people in the following scenarios were killed by the police and need to be counted in our nation-wide survey. Scenario 1: Drug Dealer Doug is driving his lifted truck at 140mph on the highway as he flees a cop car pursuing him code 3. Without any physical intervention by the police, Doug loses control, crosses the median, and strikes an oncoming car. Doug is ejected from the truck and dies at the scene. The driver of the other car isn't wearing a seat belt, and also dies. Scenario 2: An off duty police officer kills a home invader with a privately owned handgun that department policy allows him to carry on duty as a backup weapon. Scenario 3: A lone wolf jihadi takes several people hostage in a coffee shop. As the SWAT team surrounds the building, the jihadi executes his first hostage, prompting SWAT to rush their entry. After the team enters, the jihadi kills another hostage. One hostage is struck by a bullet from the entry team, damaging her spine. She will be confined to a wheel chair for the rest of her life. Another hostage is struck in the head by a less-lethal beanbag round and falls into a coma. A week later, his family pulls the plug on life support against the advice of their doctor, citing their religious beliefs. The jihadi is taken alive, but 48 hours later he escapes custody during a transfer. The manhunt is called off the same day, when it is discovered that he was struck and killed by a semi truck as he tried to cross a freeway shortly after escaping. Six months later, one of the surviving hostages commits suicide. In her note, she blames the constant night terrors caused by memories of the gunfight, and seeing her friend shot in the head with a beanbag in front of her. Show your work. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 19:00
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ActusRhesus posted:Look nm, just because you are an incompetent PD who hides behind Strickland while helping oppress poors... Much of the country uses contracted PDs.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:00
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Lemming posted:It's one thing to be right about something and it's another to be a dick about it. It's pretty understandable that somebody might have an emotional reaction to the situation. Being a bunch of condescending assholes about it only reinforces peoples' idea of lawyers being heartless lizard people. And makes you feel cool I guess. Complaining when police literally do get treated the same way as anyone else is really, really loving stupid, and causes me, who has been posting on these forums about the lack of police accountability for like a loving decade to have an emotional reaction to people spouting off dumb bullshit that doesn't help the cause.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:01
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Google's giving me a lot of suspended sentences, but I'll defer. It is one of those things that depends so much on locality (down to the courtroom you're in) and exact facts, it is really hard to say. But on veh man, one that the da can win (which is hard as juries like to aquit for them), getting a no jail offer takes some doing. Admittedly, because they are hard to win, you'll get a lot of infraction offers on those with defects.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:01
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hobbesmaster posted:Much of the country uses contracted PDs. And you should avoid even driving through those places.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:02
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Google's giving me a lot of suspended sentences, but I'll defer. Theres a lot of very different flavors of "manslaughter" so thats a little complicated. Charging the cop with a misdemeanor means that he's going to trial, and there'll be money for a good defense. A good defense will involve putting a traffic engineering PE (bonus points for PhD) on the stand to talk about everything that may or may not be wrong with that part of the road. Bam, city trying to railroad someone for having bad roads, jury acquits on everything.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:04
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Complaining when police literally do get treated the same way as anyone else is really, really loving stupid, and causes me, who has been posting on these forums about the lack of police accountability for like a loving decade to have an emotional reaction to people spouting off dumb bullshit that doesn't help the cause. It's pretty obvious that he didn't know that in this case that was standard. I certainly didn't.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:04
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ActusRhesus posted:Look nm, just because you are an incompetent PD who hides behind Strickland while helping oppress poors... There's one PD I know personally who I once managed to convince, through sheer bluffing, that flying squirrels were a subspecies of duck. I'm told she's actually a decent lawyer though. Another local PD recently got suspended after being arrested for impersonating a police officer. Turns out he really wanted a discount on a gym membership, so . . .
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