Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

It's one thing to be right about something and it's another to be a dick about it. It's pretty understandable that somebody might have an emotional reaction to the situation. Being a bunch of condescending assholes about it only reinforces peoples' idea of lawyers being heartless lizard people. And makes you feel cool I guess.

If he gets strong emotional reactions from some stranger dying in a traffic accident you better keep him away from the national traffic fatality statistics, he'll probably loving kill himself.

Also calling the two people who are regularly dogpiled and called awful things (and even stalked) by the posters in this thread big meanies because they used too harsh of a tone when someone said something momentously stupid is loving hilarious.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:05

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# ? May 31, 2024 09:24

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

There's one PD I know personally who I once managed to convince, through sheer bluffing, that flying squirrels were a subspecies of duck.

I'm told she's actually a decent lawyer though.

We have experts for science and poo poo :colbert:

I my veh man cases I had a pretty awesome expert who would tear the poo poo out of the DAs case, especially if it involved speeds that weren't like double the limits. He did all the math and then wrote a scary report full of math and sciemce to make the DA give my client a "following to close" or some poo poo.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Another local PD recently got suspended after being arrested for impersonating a police officer. Turns out he really wanted a discount on a gym membership, so . . .

Can't blame him. He's doing more to protect people, and well pd is the same as pd, so. . . .

nm fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 23, 2015

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:07

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

If he gets strong emotional reactions from some stranger dying in a traffic accident you better keep him away from the national traffic fatality statistics, he'll probably loving kill himself.

Also calling the two people who are regularly dogpiled and called awful things (and even stalked) by the posters in this thread big meanies because they used too harsh of a tone when someone said something momentously stupid is loving hilarious.

When they're simultaneously complaining that people don't automatically defer to them on any law related issues and also being obnoxious assholes, it's not unreasonable to point out that they're not doing themselves any favors.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:10

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Lemming posted:

When they're simultaneously complaining that people don't automatically defer to them on any law related issues and also being obnoxious assholes, it's not unreasonable to point out that they're not doing themselves any favors.

Yes, because a person who reacts to a semi effort post about how 15 over isn't a felony case responds with

GreyPowerVan posted:

What are a few fatal accidents when they happen in the fight against unjust speed limits? Ra Ra Fight The Power!

Should get the kid gloves. If he was civil, we'd be happy to explain any questions, but blazgah, you fuckers are defending murders might get a different response.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:13

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

I'm not judging. Do whatever you want. I'm just pointing out reality.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:27

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

An argument about traffic laws really isn't appropriate for this thread. Like it or not, the cop got about what most people get for driving recklessly (and no, that's not because he was going 15 over, it's because he crashed into another vehicle and killed the driver) and killing folks with their vehicles. It's not a police issue.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:33

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Lemming posted:

I'm not judging. Do whatever you want. I'm just pointing out reality.

Is the reality you're defending you making a series of pointless tone police posts? Because maybe if harsh language makes you sad this isn't the thread for you.

GlyphGryph posted:

An argument about traffic laws really isn't appropriate for this thread. Like it or not, the cop got about what most people get for driving recklessly (and no, that's not because he was going 15 over, it's because he crashed into another vehicle and killed the driver) and killing folks with their vehicles. It's not a police issue.

Carelessly, not recklessly. In Florida reckless driving is a more serious charge that requires a "willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property" whereas careless driving only requires that the driver fails to drive in "a careful and prudent manner."

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:38

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

GlyphGryph posted:

An argument about traffic laws really isn't appropriate for this thread. Like it or not, the cop got about what most people get for driving recklessly (and no, that's not because he was going 15 over, it's because he crashed into another vehicle and killed the driver) and killing folks with their vehicles. It's not a police issue.

Isn't this thread about criminal justice in general, not just Cop Watch? I think an argument about traffic laws is perfectly suitable for this thread.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:43

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

chitoryu12 posted:

Isn't this thread about criminal justice in general, not just Cop Watch? I think an argument about traffic laws is perfectly suitable for this thread.

You know, I hadn't even realized that but I guess it is. My bad, continue on with the traffic law discussion.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:45

Obdicut: May 15, 2012; "What election?"

Dead Reckoning posted:

Did you? The article doesn't say the information isn't being reported, it says it isn't uniform and isn't being aggregated at the federal level. The entire thrust of that article is that we've apparently just pulled the plug on a multi-year experiment to try to aggregate that data: it fell flat on its face, essentially because federalism is a bitch. The article says the same thing as the BJS' data quality profile for the ARD program: the differences in data collection across the different SRCs led to concerns about definitions, data quality, and undercoverage error. BJS decided to cancel the program, (I was wondering why they didn't have any 2014 numbers,) rather than publish numbers they knew were bad. The FBI continues to publish numbers they know are bad because, and this may be my favorite part, [b]they are mandated by law to report their numbers.

Yes, I did read it. I didn't ever claim the information isn't being reported. I'm not sure why you'd ask me if I read it when it was very clear that I did.

quote:

If you think that the problem is that data about officer-involved homicides isn't being reported on the local level, I would like someone to tell me where these departments are than an officer can kill someone in the line of duty and not have to make any sort of formal written report about the event. I don't think I want to move to those places.

I don't know of any. What are you talking about? I think the problem is that the data isn't usable because of the wide variety in standards of reporting.

quote:

I guess I think it's the perfect summary of everything wrong with D&D that Zwabu waddled into the thread talking about exciting new "data collection and reporting mandates" when we had just spent a page talking about how making federal funding contingent on doing something does not make it mandatory, because the federal government lacks the authority to make it mandatory, and not only does he not feel any sort of intellectual shame about this, but someone else jumps in to defend him by trying to quantify the degree to which money makes it mandatory.

I don't get why it's so upsetting to you that people are wrong about stuff. This happens a lot. I dunno. I'm in academia and people get stuff wrong a lot. If I flipped out the way you do every time I'd be exhausted. I do think there should be more data collecting mandates, though: I think they have to happen at the state level. It'd be good if there could be a model bill that was widely adopted. This will not happen, because the insane GOP controls a lot of states, but that's true for a lot of things that would be good if they happened.

quote:

Oh, hey, here's a fun game: Decide which of the dead people in the following scenarios were killed by the police and need to be counted in our nation-wide survey.

Scenario 1: Drug Dealer Doug is driving his lifted truck at 140mph on the highway as he flees a cop car pursuing him code 3. Without any physical intervention by the police, Doug loses control, crosses the median, and strikes an oncoming car. Doug is ejected from the truck and dies at the scene. The driver of the other car isn't wearing a seat belt, and also dies.

Scenario 2: An off duty police officer kills a home invader with a privately owned handgun that department policy allows him to carry on duty as a backup weapon.

Scenario 3: A lone wolf jihadi takes several people hostage in a coffee shop. As the SWAT team surrounds the building, the jihadi executes his first hostage, prompting SWAT to rush their entry. After the team enters, the jihadi kills another hostage. One hostage is struck by a bullet from the entry team, damaging her spine. She will be confined to a wheel chair for the rest of her life. Another hostage is struck in the head by a less-lethal beanbag round and falls into a coma. A week later, his family pulls the plug on life support against the advice of their doctor, citing their religious beliefs. The jihadi is taken alive, but 48 hours later he escapes custody during a transfer. The manhunt is called off the same day, when it is discovered that he was struck and killed by a semi truck as he tried to cross a freeway shortly after escaping. Six months later, one of the surviving hostages commits suicide. In her note, she blames the constant night terrors caused by memories of the gunfight, and seeing her friend shot in the head with a beanbag in front of her.

Show your work.

What is with the pointlessly insulting 'show your work' bullshit?

I'm not sure if you've worked in the area of data collection before, but if you're not familiar with it, in order to do any sort of data collection you need to operationalize your variables. You do this 'arbitrarily'; you get to decide where you're drawing the lines. If I were trying to collect "People killed by police homicide", then I would only collect the person who died from wounds inflicted by the police directly, because that's the data I'm interested in. Someone else might be interested in deaths resulting from SWAT breaches, and might include the suicide. Someone else might be interested in killings by police whether on or off duty, and they'd count scenario two. For what we're talking about, I'm only interested in killings by police in the line of duty.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 19:57

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

Lemming posted:

It's pretty obvious that he didn't know that in this case that was standard. I certainly didn't.

But that's the whole problem

OMG look at this thing I found that proves this thing I think!

actually that's not what that means.

Shut up fascist. Stop thinking you're better than everyone.

You'd get a lot more actual info if you could..you know...ask nicely.

Speaking of which, joeburz, I haven't forgotten about you. Still phone posting. Stupidly busy week.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 20:38

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

This thread is in fact an attempt to slow down the war on drugs by forcing prosecutors to phone post from work instead of prosecuting people.

1 down, what, 99,999 to go?

# ? Apr 23, 2015 20:43

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

nm posted:

And you should avoid even driving through those places.

We use a hybrid. We have dedicated PDs but they contract out some work to attorneys vetted by and compensated by the chief PD for conflict cases, death penalty extra counsel, heavy case load periods etc.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 20:43

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

hobbesmaster posted:

This thread is in fact an attempt to slow down the war on drugs by forcing prosecutors to phone post from work instead of prosecuting people.

1 down, what, 99,999 to go?

Ha. Wrong target. I give no fucks about drugs. If no one is dead it's not my problem.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 20:44

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

hobbesmaster posted:

This thread is in fact an attempt to slow down the war on drugs by forcing prosecutors to phone post from work instead of prosecuting people.

1 down, what, 99,999 to go?

The dangers of social engineering.

"It's like Flappy Bird but for lawyers. It has basically destroyed the legal system."

# ? Apr 23, 2015 20:45

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Rent-A-Cop posted:

The dangers of social engineering.

"It's like Flappy Bird but for lawyers. It has basically destroyed the legal system."

Theres no IAP here though.

Unless...

ActusRhesus for IK Chief Judge of debate and discussion.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 20:49

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

hobbesmaster posted:

ActusRhesus for IK Chief Judge of debate and discussion.

Chief Judge of Debate-City One

# ? Apr 23, 2015 20:59

Man_of_Teflon: Aug 15, 2003

Freddie Gray death: Protests grow; cop union compares them to 'lynch mob'

quote:

(CNN)�As protesters decrying Freddie Gray's death plan more rallies in Baltimore on Thursday, anger is mounting over a police union's comparison of the protest to a "lynch mob."

"While we appreciate the right of our citizens to protest and applaud the fact that, to date, the protests have been peaceful, we are very concerned about the rhetoric of the protests," the Baltimore Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 3 said in a statement.

"In fact, the images seen on television look and sound much like a lynch mob in that they are calling for the immediate imprisonment of these officers without them ever receiving the due process that is the constitutional right of every citizen, including law enforcement officers."

very concerned about rhetoric!

# ? Apr 23, 2015 21:06

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

nm posted:

Can't blame him. He's doing more to protect people, and well pd is the same as pd, so. . . .

Oh, I actually feel sorry for the guy. Turns out Gold's Gym gives the same discount to prosecutors, just not to the public defenders. Plus he's paid a poo poo wage, relatively. Poor dude all around.

Still just a colossally stupid life decision to impersonate a police officer while handing over all your personally identifying information. One of those "yeah, disbar that guy, but not for wrongdoing, just for life incompetence" issues.

Man_of_Teflon posted:

Freddie Gray death: Protests grow; cop union compares them to 'lynch mob'

very concerned about rhetoric!

Six white dudes straight up murder a black dude: wait what was that about lynch mobs

# ? Apr 23, 2015 21:11

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Man_of_Teflon posted:

Freddie Gray death: Protests grow; cop union compares them to 'lynch mob'

very concerned about rhetoric!

Even if the officers are completely innocent this guy is a moron. This is why you have PR people so you don't say lynch when people are protesting whote dudes killing a black guy

# ? Apr 23, 2015 21:17

esto es malo: Aug 3, 2006; Don't want to end up a cartoon

In a cartoon graveyard

ActusRhesus posted:

But that's the whole problem

OMG look at this thing I found that proves this thing I think!

actually that's not what that means.

Shut up fascist. Stop thinking you're better than everyone.

You'd get a lot more actual info if you could..you know...ask nicely.

Speaking of which, joeburz, I haven't forgotten about you. Still phone posting. Stupidly busy week.

lol dont worry, just send it whenever you get a chance

# ? Apr 23, 2015 21:28

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

nm posted:

Even if the officers are completely innocent this guy is a moron. This is why you have PR people so you don't say lynch when people are protesting whote dudes killing a black guy

Didn't the guy in charge of PR for the Ferguson police still end up saying stupid racist stuff?

# ? Apr 23, 2015 21:29

Zeitgueist: Aug 8, 2003; by Ralp

ActusRhesus posted:

But HE'S A COP!!!!!!!!

Hey now, we know cops don't go to jail for killing people. :colbert:

# ? Apr 23, 2015 21:46

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

chitoryu12 posted:

Didn't the guy in charge of PR for the Ferguson police still end up saying stupid racist stuff?

A competent pr person.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 22:42

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

http://nypost.com/2015/04/22/swedish-cops-on-vacation-break-up-subway-fight/

Naturally they looked like this:

quote:

Four Swedish police officers took a break from their New York vacation to answer the call of duty Wednesday, breaking up an out-of-control fight between two homeless men on a Manhattan subway train.

The Scandinavian patrolmen said they were on their way to see a performance of Les Mis�rables when they heard the operator of their uptown 6 train yell frantically over the intercom: �are there any police officers on the train?!�
�We thought maybe someone needed help,� said Samuel Kvarzell, 25, a rookie with the Stockholm Police Department.

When they made their way to the front of the train, they saw one homeless man beating the other senseless, as terrified straphangers fled the car into the Bleecker Street station.
�One of the guys was on top of the other guy so we separated them,� said 25-year-old Markus Asberg, who recently joined the force in the city of Uppsala.

Asberg shielded the victim while Kvarzell and fellow cops Eric Jansberger and Erik Naslund restrained the aggressor, who was screaming and resisting the Nordic heros.
The three cops eventually wrestled the man into submission and managed to apply an arm lock, while waiting for the NYPD to arrive.

Video, too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDAB35SYIr0

Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Apr 23, 2015

# ? Apr 23, 2015 23:56

peengers: Jun 6, 2003; toot toot

beats the alternative, which would have been "homeless man dies of excited delirium during arrest by 20 NYPD officers"

# ? Apr 24, 2015 00:20

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

ActusRhesus posted:

Ha. Wrong target. I give no fucks about drugs. If no one is dead it's not my problem.

You say this a lot, "not caring" about drug crimes. And maybe you have the luxury of not having to prosecute drug cases. But "not caring" could be indifference, which is deeply unethical, or actual opposition.

Are drug laws ethically sound in this country, or not?

Do the drug laws in this country contribute to systemic inequality by locking offenders into cycles of incarceration and poverty, or not?

Do you then end up prosecuting some of the people who have been locked into those cycles, or not?

# ? Apr 24, 2015 00:30

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Punishing people for murder is immoral because we've made it illegal to get high, that's a new one.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 00:45

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Jarmak posted:

Punishing people for murder is immoral because we've made it illegal to get high, that's a new one.

Reefer madness is real, they have no agency.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 00:52

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Jarmak posted:

Punishing people for murder is immoral because we've made it illegal to get high, that's a new one.

If drug laws were reformed, do you believe murder would increase or decrease?

# ? Apr 24, 2015 00:53

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

SedanChair posted:

If drug laws were reformed, do you believe murder would increase or decrease?

Decrease.

It's a trick question though because it would likely decrease regardless of changes in laws regarding drugs.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 00:58

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Are you so desperate for an opponent that you're attacking a prosecutor who deals only with the most violent of crimes and seems to hate sloppy police work as much, if not more, than you do?

# ? Apr 24, 2015 01:01

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

Punishing people for murder is immoral because we've made it illegal to get high, that's a new one.

It's very obvious what he meant and that's not it. Are you being intentionally dense or are you actually this stupid?

# ? Apr 24, 2015 01:04

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

I prefer not to engage with someone who calls me unethical. Good day, sir.

However, I think I've made clear on multiple occasions that my those in my office who DO handle simple possession cases tend to prefer diversionary programs to incarceration.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Apr 24, 2015 01:22

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

hobbesmaster posted:

Are you so desperate for an opponent that you're attacking a prosecutor who deals only with the most violent of crimes and seems to hate sloppy police work as much, if not more, than you do?

At least he's stopped threatening to doxx me.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 01:28

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

Sorry AR, you're still a part of The System for failing to read the Occupy Wall Street manifesto into record before prosecuting a cokehead for shaking his child to death.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 01:29

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

Shaken baby cases are the worst. I'd rather have a kid diddler than a kid shaker. A lot of them are not awful people. New parents, stressed, exhausted, and just...gah. Awful. But try explaining that to the "cry it out is child abuse" crowd in the parenting thread and yeesh. So many of those cases could have been prevented by a night of sleep.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 01:34

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

Willful abuse though? gently caress 'em.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 01:35

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

ActusRhesus posted:

Shaken baby cases are the worst. I'd rather have a kid diddler than a kid shaker. A lot of them are not awful people. New parents, stressed, exhausted, and just...gah. Awful. But try explaining that to the "cry it out is child abuse" crowd in the parenting thread and yeesh. So many of those cases could have been prevented by a night of sleep.

My boss was used as an expert witness in one of these cases, holy poo poo are they a clusterfuck. The MD the prosecution had was trying to use 2d images for 3d stuff which is why we were involved, the pathologist's findings were quite thoroughly destroyed by actual shiny 3d models, but I made the mistake of looking at the actual documents. Like domestic abuse, mother blamed everything on herself because she was an abuse victim and gaaaaah don't want to think about it anymore

# ? Apr 24, 2015 03:18

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# ? May 31, 2024 09:24

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

It's very obvious what he meant and that's not it. Are you being intentionally dense or are you actually this stupid?

That's a really odd thing to post after he's already replied to me defending it.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 03:35

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