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Klaus88 posted:I'm pretty sure that 1944 was actually Germany's best year in terms of AFVs produced, which is such a It really is amazing and draws even more attention to all of the insane stuff they did to further waste resources beyond the already inefficient system they had going. Industrial darlings *cough* Porsche *cough* churned through not insignificant resources with side projects even beyond the wunderwaffe.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:04
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fact that perfectly illustrates the nazi's skewered priorities.
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One thing I'll add to the Gallipoli chat that happened earlier, is that it's also a huge moment in Turkish history. It's basically the reason why Ataturk rose to prominence (he was a commander there) in the post-war period, and it more or less marks the beginning of modern Turkish nationalism. A lot of what happened there went into kicking off the Turkish War of Independence in the 20s, essentially guaranteeing that Turkey would emerge from the Ottoman Empire as a coherent state and not chopped into a poo poo-ton of little protectorates under foreign rule as happened to most of the Empire.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:30
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Shame constantly denying about that genocide keeps making said state look like a bunch of dinks.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:37
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Disinterested posted:It's not a binary thing. As I said capitalism is the subordinate interest to the state in all fascist regimes. But fascist economics was not communism or anything like it. I don't really care about the ideology involved. I am saying Germany at the time's much similar to the Soviets than Italy because like the former they are ultimately not really capitalist. As a result of various restrictions there's simply no profit incentive in the German economy, much like for the Soviets. The similarity between the both systems is actually quite striking as you can read in economist historian Peter Temin's 1990 paper. http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/64262/sovietnazieconom00temi.pdf?sequence=1 quote:This paper argues that economic planning under Stalin and Hitler in the 1930s was essentially similar, both in process and outcome. Both economies had fixed prices and used coercion as part of a rather chaotic process of resource allocation; consumption in both countries was sacrificed to investment in heavy industry. Both economies can be thought of as socialist, and socialism in the 1930s was hardly more than military mobilization. quote:I'm pretty sure that 1944 was actually Germany's best year in terms of AFVs produced, which is such a fact that perfectly illustrates the nazi's skewered priorities. Not only AFVs, everything. It's a complete mismanagement on all levels and the more you read the more you wonder how they ever did anything.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:41
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Cyrano4747 posted:One thing I'll add to the Gallipoli chat that happened earlier, is that it's also a huge moment in Turkish history. It's basically the reason why Ataturk rose to prominence (he was a commander there) in the post-war period, and it more or less marks the beginning of modern Turkish nationalism. A lot of what happened there went into kicking off the Turkish War of Independence in the 20s, essentially guaranteeing that Turkey would emerge from the Ottoman Empire as a coherent state and not chopped into a poo poo-ton of little protectorates under foreign rule as happened to most of the Empire. Weird coincidence, I just finished Osman's Dream last night and was wondering if there was more information on how much of an involvement the CUP had in the War for Independence? The official story (from what I've gathered) is that Mustafa Kemal basically did everything by himself and they like this story in Turkey because of the hero worship that surrounds him and because it also conveniently lets them deny involvement in the Armenian Genocide by blaming it on the last administration. Who were all conveniently executed shortly after Kemal gained total power.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:58
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Where should I start to learn about Post dreadnought to pre carrier naval warfare, like Battle of Jutland type stuff? I know a little but I'm curious to learn more.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:01
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SeanBeansShako posted:Shame constantly denying about that genocide keeps making said state look like a bunch of dinks. On the other hand congratulations for the Turks. 36500 days without a genocide.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:11
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Mirrors posted:Where should I start to learn about Post dreadnought to pre carrier naval warfare, like Battle of Jutland type stuff? I know a little but I'm curious to learn more. "Castles of Steel: Britain, Germany, and the Winning of the Great War at Sea" is a very good book that covers from Dreadnaught to the end of WWI. It's a pity (for speculators, not the actual nations) that the post-WWI naval arms race was cut off by the Washington treaty. I wanted to see what crazy ideas they would have come up without it.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:15
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Riso posted:I don't really care about the ideology involved. I am saying Germany at the time's much similar to the Soviets than Italy because like the former they are ultimately not really capitalist. As a result of various restrictions there's simply no profit incentive in the German economy, much like for the Soviets. You are literally Hitler.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:19
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Boiled Water posted:On the other hand congratulations for the Turks. 36500 days without a genocide. You forgot leap years.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:29
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golden bubble posted:"Castles of Steel: Britain, Germany, and the Winning of the Great War at Sea" is a very good book that covers from Dreadnaught to the end of WWI. Amagi class, Kaga class, G3, N3, 1920 South Dakota class and Lexington class are a good starting point. Massie's Castles (and Dreadnought) is decent to good, but it's pretty much a subset of Marder's From Dreadnought to Scapa Flow if blowing over a hundred bucks on books appeals to you (or you have a library card in which case get any of the illustrated design history books by Friedman while you're at it). Kaigun is also quite solid, it's the IJN from the start to the first half of WWII and has a lot from the Russo-Japanese through the interwar period. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 19:43
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I apologize if this goes too close to contemporary politics - because that's what it is - but I find it topical how history is used in contemporary politics. Putin himself uttered the g-word today one (1) time, which of course got this snarky response from Turkey:quote:"Considering the mass killings, exiles... that Russia has carried out in the Caucasus, Central Asia and in eastern Europe over the past century... we think it should be the one that knows best what a genocide is and what its legal dimensions are," a foreign ministry statement said. I think a blend of "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" combined with passive aggressiveness works great in diplomacy and Turkey should extend it to any and all critics. Austria? Hey do you remember that son of Alois Schicklgruber? We do. USA? Hey how many Indian tribes do you still have left? Nordic countries? Hey wazzup Quislings, btw do you remember all those viking raids 'cause we do. Greece? Hey remember what you Athenians did to Melos and any number of other states? etc. P.S. I wonder if we have a single country in this world where politicians don't try to blatantly twist history to fit their narrative needs.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:29
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Nenonen posted:I apologize if this goes too close to contemporary politics - because that's what it is - but I find it topical how history is used in contemporary politics. Putin himself uttered the g-word today one (1) time, which of course got this snarky response from Turkey: If you make the kebap spin too fast, everybody gets splattered with grease. Old turkish saying.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:32
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Mitsuo posted:You forgot leap years. 36525 days then.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:50
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Disinterested posted:Fascism III: Fascism with a Vengeance Can we put a link to this series in the OP?
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Apr 24, 2015 21:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:One thing I'll add to the Gallipoli chat that happened earlier, is that it's also a huge moment in Turkish history. It's basically the reason why Ataturk rose to prominence (he was a commander there) in the post-war period, and it more or less marks the beginning of modern Turkish nationalism. A lot of what happened there went into kicking off the Turkish War of Independence in the 20s, essentially guaranteeing that Turkey would emerge from the Ottoman Empire as a coherent state and not chopped into a poo poo-ton of little protectorates under foreign rule as happened to most of the Empire. How direct is the link between the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey? Specifically why would the genocide be something that they are ignoring vs a 'It wasn't us, honest!' approach?
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Apr 24, 2015 21:16
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Nenonen posted:I think a blend of "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" combined with passive aggressiveness works great in diplomacy and Turkey should extend it to any and all critics. Austria? Hey do you remember that son of Alois Schicklgruber? We do. USA? Hey how many Indian tribes do you still have left? Nordic countries? Hey wazzup Quislings, btw do you remember all those viking raids 'cause we do. Greece? Hey remember what you Athenians did to Melos and any number of other states? etc. I think in this case Turkey is especially pissed off because they blame Russia for inciting the actions that led to the Armenian genocide in the first place. That and a lot of Tatar refugees from the Russian scouring of the Asian steppe ended up in Turkey and the timing for that isn't very far off from 1915. So, it's less passive aggressive and more like 'some of us are descendants of the people you massacred'. Taerkar, the Special Organization - in some cases literal criminals freed from prison with the explicit purpose of committing atrocities - were involved in both the massacres of 1915 and in the later Turkish War of Independence. Mustafa Kemal was leading them in Eastern Anatolia and so it's hard to deny the connection between the men who committed genocide and the men who are national heroes. Ataturk himself tried to abolish a lot of the Ottoman culture such as the caliphate and form a national Turkish culture, but it's not like new people just popped out of nowhere. edit: keep in mind the time frame here is less than a decade. edit 2: Battle of Marash, Kemal kills lots of Armenians in 1920. Ithle01 fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 21:38
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Taerkar posted:How direct is the link between the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey? Specifically why would the genocide be something that they are ignoring vs a 'It wasn't us, honest!' approach?
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Apr 24, 2015 21:41
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Wasn't it a failed badly led campaign against Russia in the 1st World War one of the reasons why they decided they needed and scapegoat and they picked the Armenians in the first place? God I hate humanity sometimes. Humanity is the worst. Passing the buck, finger pointing and all that other passive aggressive nonsense really needs to gently caress off forever.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:16
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Ithle01 posted:I think in this case Turkey is especially pissed off because they blame Russia for inciting the actions that led to the Armenian genocide in the first place. That and a lot of Tatar refugees from the Russian scouring of the Asian steppe ended up in Turkey and the timing for that isn't very far off from 1915. So, it's less passive aggressive and more like 'some of us are descendants of the people you massacred'. The standard "reasonable" denialist position is something along the lines of "sure there were deportations and many of them were incompetent, but the Armenians were either betraying us by going over to the Russian side or preparing to launch a full-scale revolt against the empire, so the deportations were actually military necessities in the context of being involved in a major war, and more akin to what happened to the Boers in the second war with Britain, which nobody claims was genocide, so why are we suddenly saying that deporting the Armenians was genocide?" They also lean heavily on that nobody's yet discovered a Wannsee Conference style document where the Three Pashas sit round a table and go "we are going to kill all our Armenians so we can settle good Turks there and so It's bollocks, but it can be very persuasive bollocks. Aside from anything else, the modern Armenian state is absolutely tiny compared to where Armenians used to live in the empire, and if you admit that those lands were taken from them by genocide, they might then create a reasonable argument for why they should have it back...
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Apr 24, 2015 22:17
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Trin Tragula posted:The standard "reasonable" denialist position is something along the lines of "sure there were deportations and many of them were incompetent, but the Armenians were either betraying us by going over to the Russian side or preparing to launch a full-scale revolt against the empire, so the deportations were actually military necessities in the context of being involved in a major war, and more akin to what happened to the Boers in the second war with Britain, which nobody claims was genocide, so why are we suddenly saying that deporting the Armenians was genocide?" They also lean heavily on that nobody's yet discovered a Wannsee Conference style document where the Three Pashas sit round a table and go "we are going to kill all our Armenians so we can settle good Turks there and so Well yeah, I wasn't saying it wasn't a load of bullshit I was just explaining why Turkey would be incensed by Russia's response. Probably should have made that more clear. edit: vvvvv Nenonen, the British did hold trials for some of the CUP members involved, but it didn't go very far and most of them were released when the British pulled out after affairs in Anatolia became too dicey. In the end some of those guys got what was coming to them, but it was because Ataturk didn't like competition. Ithle01 fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 22:28
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Taerkar posted:How direct is the link between the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey? Specifically why would the genocide be something that they are ignoring vs a 'It wasn't us, honest!' approach? Far more direct than the link between the Third Reich and the Bundesrepublik, I'd say. The original empire had already ceased to exist in 1908 when the sultan had to back down from political power. Mustafa Kemal supported the Young Turk revolution and in the end became the leader and father of modern Turkey so there is a political continuation. None of the people who directed or arranged the Armenian g-event were ever tried in the manner of Nazi criminals because their side ultimately won. Ithle01 posted:I think in this case Turkey is especially pissed off because they blame Russia for inciting the actions that led to the Armenian genocide in the first place. That and a lot of Tatar refugees from the Russian scouring of the Asian steppe ended up in Turkey and the timing for that isn't very far off from 1915. So, it's less passive aggressive and more like 'some of us are descendants of the people you massacred'. Yeah this as well. And yes, Turks and Russians have had a 'special' relationship for centuries. Even though recently the two countries have been at peace the US missiles stationed in Turkey were one piece in the puzzle that is called the Cuban missile crisis, and it's likely that PKK got KGB training and funding.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:28
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Trin Tragula posted:It's bollocks, but it can be very persuasive bollocks. Aside from anything else, the modern Armenian state is absolutely tiny compared to where Armenians used to live in the empire, and if you admit that those lands were taken from them by genocide, they might then create a reasonable argument for why they should have it back... Problem is, the genocide happened, and the Armenians that used to live in those lands are all dead. How many Armenians live in Erzurum? How many Turks? Does Armenia really have the population to resettle all that if somehow all that land was ceded to them? Recognition of the genocide is reasonable, but I question the value of pushing extravagant land claims as the punishment for that.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:29
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Ofaloaf posted:I wouldn't necessarily say it's wholly reasonable. I'm of Armenian ancestry, and I was in some Armenian heritage clubs when I was younger. Was totally on board when it came to discussions of the genocide and how hosed up Turkey is about it (Great-Grandma Mirakian was born in 1906, died in 2009 and told me many stories when I was younger), but then those sort of talks almost always ended with someone pulling out a map of Wilsonian Armenia and asking us all to remember Tigranes the Great. Turks could just give up all that ground and watch Kurds and Armenians kill each other over it.  P.S. When I look at the map of the treaty of Sevres I feel some sympathy toward the Kemalist principles of indivisibility, both territorial and ethnic. 
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Apr 24, 2015 22:33
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Ofaloaf posted:I wouldn't necessarily say it's wholly reasonable. I'm of Armenian ancestry, and I was in some Armenian heritage clubs when I was younger. Was totally on board when it came to discussions of the genocide and how hosed up Turkey is about it (Great-Grandma Mirakian was born in 1906, died in 2009 and told me many stories when I was younger), but then those sort of talks almost always ended with someone pulling out a map of Wilsonian Armenia and asking us all to remember Tigranes the Great. now apply this logic to e.g. israel/palestine and you've got an interesting long-term incentive structure going
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Apr 24, 2015 22:54
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Arquinsiel posted:Good point that, I hadn't considered the implications of foreign service. Never even occurred to me. Any bets on if it gets mentioned next Easter? The rabid Scottish nationalists in D&D get really, really annoyed when you point out that Scotland was part of the industrial heart of the British Empire so they really shouldn't rave about how England was responsible for all of that nasty imperialism.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:17
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Klaus88 posted:I'm pretty sure that 1944 was actually Germany's best year in terms of AFVs produced, which is such a Wasn't Hitler afraid that if he cut civilian goods too far he'd trigger a homefront collapse like the one that ended WWI? I realize that would conflict with the "stab in the back" legend, but logic wasn't a big thing for Nazis.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:52
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BurningStone posted:Wasn't Hitler afraid that if he cut civilian goods too far he'd trigger a homefront collapse like the one that ended WWI? From what I recall, while reading various texts, was that they didn't want to fully mobilize the population because of that, the impact it would have on the German population. Also, something about not wanting to see Women in the workforce.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:58
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Wasn't there also a nice bit of cart before the horse with a lot of the idea being to achieve autarky so they wouldn't be at the mercy of a collapse like in WWI?
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Apr 25, 2015 00:01
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Japanese Explosive Ordnance: Army and Navy Ammunition Army Projectiles: Part 14 (The Army Projectiles Finale) We finish off the last of the mortar rounds, and thus complete the list of explosive ordnance for the Imperial Japanese Army. Technically, it's not the end as there is another 30 or so pages on the all the various Fuzes they used. I'm skipping over it mainly because it's dryer than the Antarctic and I really doubt anyone would be very interested in any of it. In this last update, we'll take a look at the 120mm, 150mm and 320mm mortar rounds. Type 2 120mm High Explosive Mortar  Weight of complete round: 26.5 lbs Weight of main charge: 6 lbs Explosive components: -Main Charge: TNT -Booster: RDX and wax Overall length (w/o fuze): 22.5 inches Maximum diameter at bourrelet: 120mm Maximum diameter at tail fins: 120mm Color: Black overall with a red tip and a yellow band forward of the bourrelet Fuzing: Type 100 instantaneous short delay mortar fuze Used in: Type 2 120mm Mortar Description: The body section of this shell is similar to that of the standard Army finned mortar types but the tail fin section resembles that of the Navy 81mm H.E. The 12 fins are welded to the propellant tube which is welded to the base of the body. The forward end of the tube has 42 escape ports arranged in 6 rows to allow the flash to pass from the primary cartridge to the propellant increments. The initial charge is contained in a cardboard case which fits inside the propellant tube and is held in place by a steel plug fitted with the primer cap. The main propelling charge is contained in 6 doughnut shaped silk bags which are split so that they can be slipped around the propellant tube above the tail fins and over the flash ports. Remarks: A variation of this shell has been found with the tail section threaded into the body and secured by a pin instead of being welded to the body. Type 96 150mm High Explosive Mortar  Weight of complete round: 58.06 lbs Weight of main charge: 12.9 lbs Explosive components: -Main Charge: TNT -Booster: Picric -Propellant: --Nitrocellulose and graphite: 58% --Nitroglycerine: 7.1% --Dinitrotoluene: 25.7% --Diphenylamine: 0.5% --Potassium Nitrate: 8.7% Overall length (w/o fuze): 28.75 inches Length of fin assembly: 7.81 inches Maximum diameter at bourrelet: 150mm Maximum diameter at tail fins: 149mm Color: Black overall with a red tip, a yellow band below the bourrelet, and a white band before the tail fin assembly. Fuzing: Type 93 instantaneous short delay mortar fuze Used in: Type 96 150mm smoothbore mortar Description: The construction of this shell is similar to that of the Type 97 81mm H.E. mortar shell. Type 97 150mm High Explosive Mortar  Weight of complete round: 43.5 lbs Weight of main charge: 8.98 lbs Explosive components: -Main Charge: TNT -Booster: RDX and wax -Propellant: --Nitrocellulose and graphite: 58% --Nitroglycerine: 7.1% --Dinitrotoluene: 25.7% --Diphenylamine: 0.5% --Potassium Nitrate: 8.7% Overall length (w/o fuze): 23.7 inches Length of tail fin assembly: 6.7 Maximum diameter at bourrelet: 120mm Maximum diameter at tail fins: 120mm Color: Black overall with a red nose tip and a yellow band before the bourrelet. Fuzing: Type 100 instantaneous short delay mortar fuze Used in: Type 97 150mm smoothbore mortar Description: Except for its shorter size, this projectile is similar in construction to the Type 96 H.E. long round. By long round, I believe they make the previous entry 32cm Spigot Type Mortar  Weight of complete round: 737 lbs Weight of nose section, loaded: 172 lbs Weight of center section, loaded: 215 lbs Weight of tail section, loaded: 350 lbs Weight of main charge: 103 lbs Explosive components: -Main charge: TNT -Booster: P.E.T.N. -Propellant: Black powder and nitrocellulose Overall length (w/o fuze): 61 inches Lenght of nose section (less threaded portion): 13.75 inches Length of center section (less threaded portion): 10.92 inches Length of tail section (less threaded portion): 36.31 inches Body diameter: 320mm Inside diameter of tail section: 257mm Maximum diameter of tail fins: 641mm Length of tail fins: 21.4 inches Color: The projectile is painted black overall witha red nose tip and a yellow band around the rear of the nose section Fuzing: Type 98 interior fuze Used in: Special spigot-type projector Description: The projectile, which resembles a bomb, is made in three parts: -The nose section is ogival in shape and is externally threaded at its base to screw into the center section and is internally threaded to receive a steel base plate. It has a booster cup fitted with a fuze adapter screwed into the nose. -The center section is a short cylinder, solid on the base and threaded externally to screw into the tail section. It is closed at the forward end, with a steel plate having a fuze adapter ring, fitted with a booster cup, welded in its center. -The tail section screws onto the center section and has a gradual taper toward the rear from a point 14.5 inches below the forward end. It is hollowed out to fit over the projector tub. Four sheet-steel tail fins, each braced by two stabilizing wires, are welded to the tail section. For convenience in handling and assembling, steel bands, each fitted with two double handles, are provided. Before the firing of the projectile, the carrying bands are removed. The propellant charge is place in a brass pot which fits into the recessed potion of the projector tube. The charge is contained in a cardboard container having a brass flash tube passing through its vertical axis, through the brass pot, and being screwed into the spigot. There is a drilled and tapped hole near the forward end of the tail section of the projectile into which the igniter tube screws. When in position, the end of the igniter tube is in close proximity to the end of the brass flash tube which leads into the propellant charge. Next Time: Imperial Japanese Navy. This is my last long-post on ammunition I swear, and apologies to mobile readers and others who disliked these.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:02
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I still don't understand why Hitler singled out Jews as a class culpable for the defeat in WWI. I can see political groups/movements being attacked but Jews as an ethnicity? I don't see the link, unless there was a real ethnic boundary thing going on that rivaled white supremacist secessionists at their worst, which I have never seen evidence of. Were most of the Jews in Germany of Eastern European heritage or something, thus linking them to Bolshevism and thus somehow the Russian defeat in WWI? I can't think of how someone would link the two. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 00:50
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FAUXTON posted:I still don't understand why Hitler singled out Jews as a culprit. I can see political groups/movements being attacked but Jews as an ethnicity? Were most of the Jews in Germany of Eastern European heritage or something, thus linking them to Bolshevism and thus somehow the Russian defeat in WWI? Jews had been the scapegoat for everything in Europe for centuries.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:55
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Not a fully-fledged expert on this, but discrimination against Jews has been a persistent and frankly Europe-wide thing for centuries up to that point. German Jews in particular were still pretty sore about their treatment in WW1, when the government consistently refused to promote Jews to any higher ranks regardless of their qualifications, even at the worst moments of the war. It probably got its start in the whole religious "Jews killed Christ" business, as well as the "Jews continue to deny Christ is the messiah" angle, but took on a life of its own later.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:56
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Deteriorata posted:Jews had been the scapegoat for everything in Europe for centuries. Oh, so it was just the continuing "they're different and therefore the bogeyman" bullshit that had been in fashion since literally forever.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:59
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Pretty much. See also: Albert Dreyfus.
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Apr 25, 2015 01:00
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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FAUXTON posted:Oh, so it was just the continuing "they're different and therefore the bogeyman" bullshit that had been in fashion since literally forever. Fascism is not really the thinking man's ideology
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Apr 25, 2015 01:01
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Also, the Nazi idea of evil Jewish financiers secretly controlling the world through money has its roots in Medieval Catholic proscriptions against usury. Loans are a great way to keep the economy moving so somebody needed to do it, and while this was going on most Jews were being restricted from most other professions, so unsurprisingly a lot of them gravitated into banking and moneylending and being absolutely hated by those in debt to them, which didn't exactly help ease up on the tensions. Edit: I mean, the religious edicts weren't really in force by the time of the Nazis, but the stereotype (as well as the established banking houses) were firmly fixed by that point. Tomn fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 01:07
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FAUXTON posted:I still don't understand why Hitler singled out Jews as a culprit. I can see political groups/movements being attacked but Jews as an ethnicity? Were most of the Jews in Germany of Eastern European heritage or something, thus linking them to Bolshevism and thus somehow the Russian defeat in WWI? Hitler didn't invent anti-semitism at all, he just embraced it more than anyone before him. Anti-semitism was common in most of Europe before WW1 but especially in the Russian empire it seems: not only were periodical pogroms common but the Tsar's secret police also penned the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Given that even one extremely successful American industrialist took that forgery at face value and distributed it along with other antisemitist propaganda, it is no wonder that Hitler did the same. And like Ford, Hitler also created his very own car brand which is still very successful!
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Apr 25, 2015 01:09
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So basically the Nazis leveraged existing anti-semitism and aimed that hatred at the German people's need to find a culprit for the loss in WWI? I mean I understand that fascism is basically lizard-brain politics writ large, but I was expecting some long chain of delusions stretching between German Jews and Versailles. Not "Those Jews were behind it like they're behind EVERYTHING  " full stop.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:19
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FAUXTON posted:I still don't understand why Hitler singled out Jews as a class culpable for the defeat in WWI. I can see political groups/movements being attacked but Jews as an ethnicity? I don't see the link, unless there was a real ethnic boundary thing going on that rivaled white supremacist secessionists at their worst, which I have never seen evidence of. In addition to the other reasons mentioned, they were the largest minority group in Germany at the time. Also, their similar appearance but distinct cultural identity made it possible to scapegoat Jews for a wider variety of offences. Many foreign and domestic enemies of the Nazi Party were condemned as secretly Jewish, and Hitler wouldn't have been able to do so if his scapegoat of choice had been, for example, Africans. Also, it might be a little hard to understand how prevalent anti-semitism was in the early 20th century because the Nazis made it a much more unpalatable position. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was widely read and people believed it to be true, even after it had been exposed as fraudulent. FAUXTON posted:So basically the Nazis leveraged existing anti-semitism and aimed that hatred at the German people's need to find a culprit for the loss in WWI? Yes, exactly. "We must have been sabotaged by someone" easily became "We must have been sabotaged by that distinctive minority group that many of us already believe is trying to take over the world."
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Apr 25, 2015 02:21
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