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Poultron posted:I think Valve's heart was in the right place with this, but the implementation has got to be one of the absolute worst I have ever seen. This should have been a way to donate money to mod creators for their Cool poo poo, not a way to sell your lovely sword you made that quite literally only the person who bought it will be able to see. It's weird because haven't they traditionally had a very good understanding of the mod community? Shouldn't they have known this would be in a disaster? Who cares if it's a disaster? Disastrous checks still cash just the same for Valve.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:26
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I distinctly remember when the Steam Workshop was announced originally this was one of the exact doomsday scenarios that Nexus supporters used to freak out about it. I think I'm not only as stunned by how badly this has gone for Bethesda, but that those people are now RIGHT/.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:26
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projecthalaxy posted:Who cares if it's a disaster? Disastrous checks still cash just the same for Valve. If it causes problems with game ratings and/or sales, it depends whether the bad press results in more loss of money than the mods generate, not to mention possible legal problems and increased hassle for both publishers and valve dealing with the mess that is the mod community now that money is involved.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:28
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Sky Shadowing posted:I distinctly remember when the Steam Workshop was announced originally this was one of the exact doomsday scenarios that Nexus supporters used to freak out about it. Nobody gave it any credit because just two days ago it would have been absurd to think that Valve would do something so blatantly against the mod community that made them who they are today.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:29
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The social ineptitude and lack of fan loyalty is becoming grossly apparent in the actions of some of these modders, as soon as the possibility of a pittance of money is thrown at them. Rage aside though, the lingering question in my mind is: People are actually willing to pay for mods? I understand all IP has a lifespan when I buy a game, but modders aren't exactly reputable developers. I could spend 5 dollars on a mod or something, then a week later, a modder can break it in an update, then abandon it entirely, and it's just money out the window. I'm also curious as to why this was rolled out at the end of the week -- to give the community a weekend to simmer down before they look at the business end of it on Monday? //edit what I do see eventually happen, if this isn't reverted, is a lot of backyard modders are going to look at the poo poo that is going on with mods like Midas Magic, and simply make a free version of their own. My theory is this will all be contained into a bottle soon enough, free modders will, for the most part, make free mods and frameworks using donations like on Nexus, and most of the profit cash grabbing modders are going for will be mitigated. Also 25 cents on the dollar for hundreds of hours of potential mod work? How could anyone justify their time like that? Kimsemus fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 16:30
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If nothing else, I can't imaging stakeholders at these companies are happy about Forbes running two articles about how this is a poo poo move. Or idk, maybe those two are just blog posts and no one cares? One has already been posted, but here's the other: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2015/04/23/valve-and-bethesdas-monetized-skyrim-mods-give-content-creators-a-raw-deal/
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Apr 25, 2015 16:35
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Kimsemus posted:Also 25 cents on the dollar for hundreds of hours of potential mod work? How could anyone justify their time like that? What you see in response to this is that publishing and distribution of content typically works on comparable ratios. Even though no one is obliged to think that "this is how it works elsewhere" is a good justification for "this is how it should work anywhere," that is a compelling justification for anyone who wants one. The bigger issue with this for me is that other kinds of content don't typically require tech support when they gently caress up (i.e., my copy of A Game of Thrones is not going to glitch my savegame or crash something), tech support that Valve and Beth are taking 0% of the burden of while pocketing 75% of the money, and aren't modifications to an existing piece of intellectual property customers have already paid for and for which mods were a selling point. Edit: If we want a fair comparison on this basis, we have to compare to other programming projects. The Forbes article I posted put it this way: "Compare this with the Apple Store, for instance, which gives content creators 70 percent of the cut." GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 16:39
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Kimsemus posted:Also 25 cents on the dollar for hundreds of hours of potential mod work? How could anyone justify their time like that? If the rates were a bit better it might make sense for game developers with art assets that can easily be modified and put up for sale for use in skyrim. If the work is already done why not profit off of their own work? At least that makes some sense.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:40
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Kimsemus posted:
How is it any different from early access? Loads of broken, abandoned games on that and people are still buying them in droves.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:41
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Mega Comrade posted:How is it any different from early access? I'm not saying I support early access either though. Essentially it's just paid beta testing, and half of them fizzle out before they release. In my mind, as others have pointed out, free modding greatly extends of the life of an IP, Skyrim is a notable example. I feel like Bethesda would do better in the long run by not tampering with the current model, as more people might buy the game, or keep playing the game, because they can mod it or buy official DLC with it which generates more direct revenue because it's still popular. (Due in part by continue interested generated with modding). At least now, the modding community has been almost instantly fractured and damaged. It's funny too, I just re-installed Skyrim last week because I wanted to try a lot of the mods in this thread, and I wrote all the compatibility patches for them myself. I would not have done so had this happened before because I wouldn't even have access to the same mods as posted by the OP. Or maybe I can sell all my patches now and cash in like everyone else! WOULDN'T THAT BE FUN.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:45
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GunnerJ posted:If nothing else, I can't imaging stakeholders at these companies are happy about Forbes running two articles about how this is a poo poo move. Or idk, maybe those two are just blog posts and no one cares? Valve is privately owned and traded by employees within the company, so I doubt they give much of a poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:45
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Mega Comrade posted:How is it any different from early access? Loads of broken, abandoned games on that and people are still buying them in droves. Well, for one, you're paying for even less than what you are in early access game. I mean, with an early access game you get the expectation that there will be a finished product. You don't even get that with a mod. It's a labor of love, and adding a price tag to it isn't going to change the ethics of modding so much that you're guaranteed a working or finished product. Even Steam removes the really loving bad games off of the service. Plus, the product of an early access game that's five bucks is usually much larger than the size of the content of the mod. When you work with mods you often need to do the tech support to get it working, the finagling with the console to make sure it -still- works mid session, the tech support to make sure it's compatible with other mods, and you have the ever present concern that an update will break it or break other products. And that's usually just the tip of the iceberg. The mod setups that Skyrim has at this point for veteran users can take many, many, many hours to get working. Add a paid element to that and you're just making it even worse. Part of why the modding system Skyrim and the TES games have works is that you can just uninstall a broken/incompatible mod with no financial loss if it doesn't work with your other mods. Not so here. You don't even get a "real" refund. I'm sure i've missed a whole bunch of other negatives as well. It's an entirely different setup. Archonex fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 16:46
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To be honest, there are a couple of ways that paid mods could have been introduced that would have made it way more palatable to people. Kind of seems like the actual way they rolled it out was specifically meant to make the community rage against mod creators instead of the company itself which is kind of scummy. If they'd announced it a couple of months before actually rolling it out along with actual improvements to the way workshop works(like improvements to auto-updating in addition to the ones they actually did like removing file limits and allowing esms) or improvements to the CK and additional modding tools, the community would have raged about it for a while but by the time it was actually rolled out...
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Apr 25, 2015 16:47
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Scyantific posted:Valve is privately owned and traded by employees within the company, so I doubt they give much of a poo poo. I didn't say "shareholders," though. Owners are stakeholders, and have an interest in the profitability of what they own.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:47
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Scyantific posted:Valve is privately owned and traded by employees within the company, so I doubt they give much of a poo poo. I'm pretty sure they did this in co-operation with Bethesda, so getting any other developers/publishers on board would require their consent and interest. I can't imagine many of them looking at the ongoing PR disaster and going "yes, we want some of that".
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Apr 25, 2015 16:48
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Mega Comrade posted:How is it any different from early access? Loads of broken, abandoned games on that and people are still buying them in droves. Even the worst EA game is still above the vast majority of mods in terms of support. Also, if an EA game is really bad, it gets poo poo raised about it and refunds get issued, that's not likely to happen when the majority of things being sold are on that level.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:49
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"Paid mod" is just a fancy way to say "third-party DLC with no formal testing".
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Apr 25, 2015 16:51
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NadaTooma posted:"Paid mod" is just a fancy way to say "third-party DLC with no formal testing". This, pretty much. It's a way to benefit off of content development after the actual developers stop caring about the game. It's the equivalent of outsourcing content development to the community. Only in this case the developers and an intermediary take the majority of the profits for the (often shoddy) work of someone else. Thing is, I don't even think it would be nearly as offensive to some people if there wasn't the 25% earnings remark acting as the poo poo cherry on top of the proverbial sundae. I'm sure plenty of fairly deluded people would be happy to do drudge work in the hopes of "making it big" by having their mod become a crucial part of the modding community. Hell, some of these mod makers are showing that right now. Look at that stuff I posted about the SkyUI mod maker a page ago. The dude is trying every excuse in the book to justify his lovely outlook and decisions. As it is it's just the thing that makes this all the more insulting and is repulsing a bunch of mod makers on top of the community itself. Bethesda and Valve really screwed the pooch when it came to this stuff. Archonex fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 16:55
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Double Bill posted:I'm pretty sure they did this in co-operation with Bethesda, so getting any other developers/publishers on board would require their consent and interest. I can't imagine many of them looking at the ongoing PR disaster and going "yes, we want some of that". to the straight up not allowing paid mods. Already using this Skyrim thing to spin positive PR for themselves. Dumb me, it's been that way for a while. Hey remember the Xbone? The third Xbox? That was a time when bitching forced Microsoft to change their hand. That owned. KakerMix fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 16:57
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I like how bethsada expects me to pay for an improved UI. Horse armour DLC all over again.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:57
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Trixie Hardcore posted:It would be great if mod authors could be compensated for their work, but everyone buying into this fantasy scenario where mod authors can make a living modding and the quality mods will flow like wine are fooling themselves. Especially not now that the first wave of paid modders have proven they will take on all the risk & labor and turn on each other for obscenely small rewards. It's like dropping a minor healing potion or something in the middle of Riften  Poultron posted:I think Valve's heart was in the right place with this, lol Wow, people STILL think St. Gabe is the Champion Of All That Is Good About Gaming, huh?
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Apr 25, 2015 17:03
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yo valve was straight-up looking at skimming a hell of a lot of money for zero work or effort on their parts. so was bethesda. zero percent of this decision was to benefit the modders, and only does because they knew they couldn't get away with taking 100%
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Apr 25, 2015 17:06
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The funny thing is, if they had done something like "submit your content to Bethesda and it may be featured in game!" would probably have gone over better than this. Even if it was released as paid DLC and the creators got nothing but their name in the credits.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:07
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fennesz posted:The funny thing is, if they had done something like "submit your content to Bethesda and it may be featured in game!" would probably have gone over better than this. Even if it was released as paid DLC and the creators got nothing but their name in the credits. A lot of mods are perpetual WIP though, so either the modder will be obligated to work for free to support Beth's product or paid customers will be stuck with an inferior version of an existing mod.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:10
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If I were a modder, solely interested in my own profit, I'd STILL not be an early adopter of this lovely policy and wait until the smoke clears. A paltry 25% is probably not worth dealing with all this bullshit right now, due to how volatile your potential consumers are. Also Apocalypse Spells is way better than Midas Magic.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:13
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I think we should thank Gabe for his work. This is a great moment as the new generation of tumblr tweens has to face that the Internet is going to poo poo because of capitalism, greed and big corporations. Let's hope it brings us into a new golden age of pirating like back in the newsgroups era. 
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Apr 25, 2015 17:16
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Am I just blind, or has Valve removed the review stats from the Skyrim page? I remember watching it nosedive yesterday from about 98% to 95% over the course of a couple hours, but now I don't see it.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:16
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So is it still considered  if we talk about pirating mods now?
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Apr 25, 2015 17:17
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They're still there and it's down to 93% as of ten minutes ago.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:18
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I'm willing to believe that the backwards baseball caps at Bethesda had this wonderful idea to harness some of the endless energy of the mod community for some modest dollar signs and Valve just pulled a Chesko and went "I dunno but I don't mind money, it's your funeral I guess" without either one anticipating the degree of this shitstorm. If it were Valve's initiative, I think there would've been more than one game released in 2011 serving as the experimental cohort. Then again, I haven't been watching what Valve has been doing for the past three years so I haven't really had opportunities to be disillusioned by scummy poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:18
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scamtank posted:I'm willing to believe that the backwards baseball caps at Bethesda had this wonderful idea to harness some of the endless energy of the mod community for some modest dollar signs and Valve just pulled a Chesko and went "I dunno but I don't mind money, it's your funeral I guess" without either one anticipating the degree of this shitstorm. If it were Valve's initiative, I think there would've been more than one game released in 2011 serving as the experimental cohort. I think you're selling Steam way short to suppose that, imagining it as Gabe and some of his buddies when in fact it's a megacompany now with all the departments and so forth that implies. Much more likely is that the Steam Workshop was brought forth in anticipation of Thursday. For Bethesda this is all about deriving a continuous passive income stream from effectively enslaving modders to do their patching for them at what works out to below minimum wage with no benefits or other tax liabilities associated with employees.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:20
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Colgate posted:If I were a modder, solely interested in my own profit, I'd STILL not be an early adopter of this lovely policy and wait until the smoke clears. A paltry 25% is probably not worth dealing with all this bullshit right now, due to how volatile your potential consumers are. I enjoy watching people who were well respected (lol modding community) burn all of their goodwill and assumed good-ness in a few lines of text. These people now, no matter what they make, will be forever attached to 'hey aren't you the guy that'. Since their ~respect~ comes from their mods, they can't escape it. This is the same poo poo that happened in Minecraft. You have well-respected and well-loved mods where the creator said or did a thing with hubris, and were replaced and forgotten about in one update where as before they had been in that position for years. These modders full of hubris and wearing their newly-fitted Jr. Capitalist hats have no idea about their own positions in this dumb modding community, let alone in how to function with other people. Players decide the fate of mods, not the other way around.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:21
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Bethesda must be hurting for money.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:22
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Not Bethesda, Zenimax. They gotta make up that massive loss from stupidly investing in Multiplayer Skyrim without the Skyrim.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:24
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MMOs cost a lot of money so when one fails, it can be really devastating. e-efb
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Apr 25, 2015 17:24
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KakerMix posted:Tripwire jumped right on http://store.steampowered.com/eula/232090_eula_0 That EULA hasn't changed in ages. It's been there long before this whole debacle.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:25
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GunnerJ posted:What you see in response to this is that publishing and distribution of content typically works on comparable ratios. Even though no one is obliged to think that "this is how it works elsewhere" is a good justification for "this is how it should work anywhere," that is a compelling justification for anyone who wants one. The bigger issue with this for me is that other kinds of content don't typically require tech support when they gently caress up (i.e., my copy of A Game of Thrones is not going to glitch my savegame or crash something), tech support that Valve and Beth are taking 0% of the burden of while pocketing 75% of the money, and aren't modifications to an existing piece of intellectual property customers have already paid for and for which mods were a selling point. Someone brought up that justification in the other thread, and I think it's bullshit. It reminds me of people who bitch about things like government employees getting good benefits, and their response to that is to say "Why should they get benefits when we don't? Take them away!" They call for them to be knocked down, when they should be clamoring for everyone else to be lifted up.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:29
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Has modding died yet?
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Apr 25, 2015 17:31
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Sky Shadowing posted:I distinctly remember when the Steam Workshop was announced originally this was one of the exact doomsday scenarios that Nexus supporters used to freak out about it. The greatest crime here is that the Workshop is making  look like the good guys.I mocked those Nexus supporters predicting Steam-related apocalypses. I welcomed the improvements made to the Workshop to make it more of a viable competitor. Now I curse Valve with every bite of crow. 
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Apr 25, 2015 17:32
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Yes my hat is very delicious.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:35
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