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crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006

adorai posted:

Our on call involves having your cell phone set as the on call forwarder number (so it's not published or anything, but people can get to it through our voicemail system) and then watching tickets and responding to them between 7:30am and 12:00pm on Saturday morning. This can be done from home and our response SLA on Saturday morning is 15 minutes. We compensate a minimum of 1.5 hours WORKED (so it is overtime eligible), or the actual number of hours worked, whichever is higher. Generally speaking, it ends up being about 30 minutes of work, but you obviously have to stay reasonably close to a computer. Most of our guys use it as an excuse to play video games without interruption from their wives/girlfriends.
Yeah they forward the help desk to my cell number too. Your time frame seems more reasonable, our SLA is 1 hour but they are expecting me to do this from 5am Saturday to 5am Monday (my actual shift starts at 5am on Monday). This has a $100 stipend, but given what they are asking it doesn't seem like much. I figured on call meant if emergency happens then you work, not monitor the queue and field calls your entire weekend. Seems to me they need to hire someone to work weekends or at least adjust shifts to cover it and give someone a couple weekdays off.

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socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003

crunk dork posted:

Yeah they forward the help desk to my cell number too. Your time frame seems more reasonable, our SLA is 1 hour but they are expecting me to do this from 5am Saturday to 5am Monday (my actual shift starts at 5am on Monday). This has a $100 stipend, but given what they are asking it doesn't seem like much. I figured on call meant if emergency happens then you work, not monitor the queue and field calls your entire weekend. Seems to me they need to hire someone to work weekends or at least adjust shifts to cover it and give someone a couple weekdays off.

Yeah that's not on call that's working through the weekend.

crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006

socialsecurity posted:

Yeah that's not on call that's working through the weekend.

Ok just verifying that this place was as lovely as I thought. The pay is great for my skill set and I'm getting a ton of experience but there is no work/life balance. The CTO and Operations Manager both expect the entire team to respond to emails from work at all hours. I should have known better when they kept emphasizing during my interview how much I'm going to love working for them and what a great place it is to work haha

crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006
On the other hand I straight up told them I'm not doing poo poo overnight as far as monitoring tickets, and they didn't really have a reaction so apparently no one has ever called them on their BS.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer

crunk dork posted:

On the other hand I straight up told them I'm not doing poo poo overnight as far as monitoring tickets, and they didn't really have a reaction so apparently no one has ever called them on their BS.
Or maybe they don't actually have an expectation that you will get up every 30 minutes to check on poo poo?

crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006

adorai posted:

Or maybe they don't actually have an expectation that you will get up every 30 minutes to check on poo poo?

I'd really hope not and I don't think I'll catch too much flak for not doing it because nothing really came up overnight, but branding yourself as having full 24/7 support when we aren't even really open as a business on the weekends and just labeling one dude as "on call" to handle everything that might come up seems screwy. The guy that was on call last weekend who holds a very senior position was explaining that even though he was at the park with his son, he was still checking his email and tickets every 30 minutes on his phone. You should work to live, not vice versa.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer

crunk dork posted:

he was still checking his email and tickets every 30 minutes on his phone. You should work to live, not vice versa.
You might want to clarify to see exactly what that entails. I pull my phone out of my pocket often enough on the weekend to know if I am getting blasted with notifications, but I certainly wouldn't call the 5 seconds it takes to type my password and tap my mail app as working. If something major was broken then I would be able to invest some real time in fixing it before monday morning, but just checking my mail isn't enough effort to even consider it work.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


I've been on call before and I had the ticketing system email my phone and set that number to a specific ringtone. For example emailing 123-4568@vtxt.com or whatever else.

I wouldn't ever chain myself to a desk watching a ticket que, that's just ridiculous.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



Yeah, at my lovely last job, we just set our ticketing system to send notifications to our phone. That way, we'd get a text, check it, and see if it was something urgent enough to do over the weekend.

On the other hand, thankfully I only ever got two urgent tickets while I was asleep. For one, they texted me and the 24/7 critical ticket team emailed me twice about it. Because I'm checking my email at 3AM. I didn't wake up, and I caught poo poo for it. However, on a decent number of nights I would get 2-3 or even 6 tickets assigned to me at 3-4 AM, and $12/day isn't enough to be woken up several times a night for calls I don't even have to respond to. Especially since my fiancee is a lighter sleeper than I am, $12/day definitely isn't enough to wake her up several times a night. The only other urgent ticket I got, the person monitoring the ticket thankfully realized that sending an email to someone in the middle of a night is not an effective means of communication, so instead I got a phone call at 5AM, which was loud enough to wake me up.

That time I caught poo poo from the timekeeping auditing people, because they said it took me too long to get up, check the road conditions, and find out if I needed a certification that the account usually required that I didn't have. They accused me of rounding it off to a half hour, when we were supposed to keep track to the minute (despite it taking several minutes to finish putting in time after you entered the time itself). I told them that I did round off, and if they wanted to be accurate, they could put in 32 minutes instead. Eventually they just said they were going to escalate it to my manager, who told them it was fine.

But that came on the same day I found out we were now supposed to count the up to the first and last half hour of travel to the first site and from the last site as our personal commute time, and not bill for it. Which goons in this thread pointed out sounded illegal, and according to the FLSA, is illegal. So I started billing that time again, and nobody ever called me on it.

Basically, never work at Compucom. Out of 10,000 employees, nobody has gotten a raise in 5 years. They negotiated their biggest contract ever so that repair was due regardless of whether the client had supplied parts or not, and then started nickel and diming the techs once they inevitably lost the contract and had to pay the financial penalties stipulated. We lost half of our team to different jobs, and there wasn't even a job posting put out until the last one left. I was sad to leave, because I had a good boss, but a good boss at a bad company is still a bad situation.

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009

socialsecurity posted:

Yeah that's not on call that's working through the weekend.

Yeah, this. On-call generally means you're available to respond to emergencies. And there's some mechanism of actively notifying you about them, via a text from your monitoring system or a call from the NOC or something. Not you sitting at your computer literally all day hitting Refresh on a ticket queue just waiting for something to happen. That's just retarded.

crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006

Docjowles posted:

Yeah, this. On-call generally means you're available to respond to emergencies. And there's some mechanism of actively notifying you about them, via a text from your monitoring system or a call from the NOC or something. Not you sitting at your computer literally all day hitting Refresh on a ticket queue just waiting for something to happen. That's just retarded.

Makes a lot more sense but there isn't any kind of notification system in place like that. I'll be figuring out how to make it work one way or another this week, hopefully.

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009

What does your company do, and what is your role in it? I like, literally can't imagine an IT or Ops organization without a monitoring and alerting system in The Year of Our Lord 2002, let alone 2015.

crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006

Docjowles posted:

What does your company do, and what is your role in it? I like, literally can't imagine an IT or Ops organization without a monitoring and alerting system in The Year of Our Lord 2002, let alone 2015.

We're an MSP and I'm somewhere between help desk/remote tech and systems admin, I think, officially titled a systems admin.

They do this thing where everyone does everything, and it doesn't seem to me like anyone is tied down to a certain category of work. We get email alerts when tickets are assigned to us but not when the queue receives one. It is probably really easy to set up and no one ever got around to doing it.

Sickening
Jul 16, 2007

Black summer was the best summer.

crunk dork posted:

We're an MSP and I'm somewhere between help desk/remote tech and systems admin, I think, officially titled a systems admin.

They do this thing where everyone does everything, and it doesn't seem to me like anyone is tied down to a certain category of work. We get email alerts when tickets are assigned to us but not when the queue receives one. It is probably really easy to set up and no one ever got around to doing it.

So yeah, I am getting a feeling that there isn't a 24 hour helpdesk/noc watching the ticket queue right? That situation is hot garbage. They aren't expecting you to be on call. They are expecting you to work 48 hours straight. No was the correct answer.

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006
READING COMPREHENSION IS HARD
I own a MSP and the thought of providing 24/7 coverage of non-emergency poo poo doesn't even cross my mind and even emergency things are run by me before a ticket is created because I'm not asking my oncall dude to get off his rear end on a Sunday afternoon because someone thinks a broken keyboard is an emergency

crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006

go3 posted:

I own a MSP and the thought of providing 24/7 coverage of non-emergency poo poo doesn't even cross my mind and even emergency things are run by me before a ticket is created because I'm not asking my oncall dude to get off his rear end on a Sunday afternoon because someone thinks a broken keyboard is an emergency

This seems like the way it ought to be really. The only calls/tickets I've gotten have been password resets for people working at home over the weekend and other basic stuff like that. The past two days I've had tickets put in before 6, if they don't get a response before 1 hour it violates SLA. This 1 hour first response time applies to all priority levels too.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer

crunk dork posted:

if they don't get a response before 1 hour it violates SLA. This 1 hour first response time applies to all priority levels too.
If your MSP is selling that kind of SLA they need to staff for it.

Outside of the saturday morning i mentioned in my previous post, I think I've worked on two tickets on my on calls in 6 years, and I don't expect my team to either. Helping you get your email on your new iphone at 9pm is not a priority unless your title begins with the word Chief or Executive, and those people aren't the kind of person who even expects that kind of service because we work at a company with management that values it's employees.

crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006
Sounds like I've been had, this sucks haha

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Does anyone have resources for when the cloud isn't the right solution?

I'm being told that the "cloud" will replace everything but my gut tells me this is simply untrue. I spoke with some of the guys who work with Stack Exchange and they were going to make a blog post why the cloud wasn't for them but it's not up.

On another note, my new gig has a "hands-off" managerial approach. It's up to us to master a sub-sect of the product that we pick, setup meetings with our manager(s) and drive our own demand by working (or selling) ourselves to other teams. This is rather the opposite of myself - I'm not a narcissist but much more altruistic.

theperminator
Sep 16, 2009

by Smythe
Fun Shoe
Data Sovereignty, latency, ultra paranoid security, special hardware requirements are some of the concerns when it comes to the cloud.

I'd be interested in seeing why StackExchange found the cloud to be not ideal, I can't imagine why.

Most things probably are suitable for the cloud though.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

adorai posted:

If your MSP is selling that kind of SLA they need to staff for it.
It's really, really trivial to just outsource the call center to someone who's gonna just answer the phone and log an after-hours ticket.

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009

Tab8715 posted:

Does anyone have resources for when the cloud isn't the right solution?

I'm being told that the "cloud" will replace everything but my gut tells me this is simply untrue. I spoke with some of the guys who work with Stack Exchange and they were going to make a blog post why the cloud wasn't for them but it's not up.

On another note, my new gig has a "hands-off" managerial approach. It's up to us to master a sub-sect of the product that we pick, setup meetings with our manager(s) and drive our own demand by working (or selling) ourselves to other teams. This is rather the opposite of myself - I'm not a narcissist but much more altruistic.

The Stack Exchange folks are certainly interesting, and I'd love to see that blog post when it comes up. Very high traffic site running mostly on Windows/IIS instead of Linux? Check. Running on a few beastly bare-metal hosts vs a ton of VM's and/or ~~the cloud~~? Check. Employing some very high profile names like Tom Limoncelli? Check.

I don't have much to add on the topic. I just find it interesting that they're doing almost everything differently than most web companies and would eagerly read more about why.

theperminator
Sep 16, 2009

by Smythe
Fun Shoe
Anyone know why they went with Windows/IIS for that matteR?

nielsm
Jun 1, 2009



Someone liked C# and MVVM a whole lot and wanted to work with that.

Gyshall
Feb 24, 2009

Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.
Cloud can be a deal breaker when you need to comply with various policies like HIPPA/SOX/whatever depending on your existing infrastructure.

Also can be pretty tough if you have existing infrastructure on premise and want to do stuff like Single Sign on with your cloud app, or transfer data between apps, etc.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Gyshall posted:

Cloud can be a deal breaker when you need to comply with various policies like HIPPA/SOX/whatever depending on your existing infrastructure.

Also can be pretty tough if you have existing infrastructure on premise and want to do stuff like Single Sign on with your cloud app, or transfer data between apps, etc.

There are good solutions to all of these problems now

JHVH-1
Jun 28, 2002

Gyshall posted:

Cloud can be a deal breaker when you need to comply with various policies like HIPPA/SOX/whatever depending on your existing infrastructure.

Also can be pretty tough if you have existing infrastructure on premise and want to do stuff like Single Sign on with your cloud app, or transfer data between apps, etc.

http://aws.amazon.com/compliance/

Amazon has been going out of their way to document and provide case studies for all kinds of use cases and compliances now. It makes convincing people that it is a viable option a whole lot easier than it used to be.

They also have a directory service now which they have instructions on how to integrate it into your existing directory. With things like virtual private cloud you can even get a direct connection to your existing network to share resources.

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

My girlfriend got fired from her programming job at a start up today. Their reasoning? She doesn't fit in well enough into their corporate culture. Apparently her boss was getting irritated that she was the only one not going to strip clubs and getting drunk as gently caress at the bars on the company dime.

What the gently caress.

Sickening
Jul 16, 2007

Black summer was the best summer.

GreenNight posted:

My girlfriend got fired from her programming job at a start up today. Their reasoning? She doesn't fit in well enough into their corporate culture. Apparently her boss was getting irritated that she was the only one not going to strip clubs and getting drunk as gently caress at the bars on the company dime.

What the gently caress.

Tell her to stop being a loving killjoy. Geez.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Tab8715 posted:

Does anyone have resources for when the cloud isn't the right solution?

I'm being told that the "cloud" will replace everything but my gut tells me this is simply untrue. I spoke with some of the guys who work with Stack Exchange and they were going to make a blog post why the cloud wasn't for them but it's not up.

On another note, my new gig has a "hands-off" managerial approach. It's up to us to master a sub-sect of the product that we pick, setup meetings with our manager(s) and drive our own demand by working (or selling) ourselves to other teams. This is rather the opposite of myself - I'm not a narcissist but much more altruistic.
My thoughts on this:

  • There's a principle called data gravity which says that data tends to collect and accumulate in the same places, and value tends to accumulate around the places where that data is. It's much easier and cheaper to move the code close to the data than it is to move the data close to the code. This was made apparent even on high-speed networks when Hadoop began to take off five or six years ago. For companies trying to build solutions around many terabytes or petabytes of data in a single project, it's much easier to keep things in the local datacenter if that's where the data is. Many scientific computing environments like CERN or LLNL can produce over 1 TB of data every second -- you can see Lustre's case studies around these if you want more details -- and unless there's some major fundamental innovation in the way the Internet works, it will never be feasible to move this data into the cloud.
  • With cloud, you lose a lot of control and a lot of visibility. This is untenable for many organizations for philosophical reasons. In practice, for common application architectures, it really doesn't matter.
  • As above, cloud application architectures are expensive to develop. Most ISVs haven't moved towards a cloud model yet; those that have tend to be monetizing their product with SaaS anyway. These applications benefit far more from more reliable hardware than the cheap hardware at scale used in the cloud.
  • Many environments have hardware requirements that preclude the use of cloud as it exists today. Real-time systems, especially in domains like high-frequency trading, are likely to stay as close to the metal as possible, and geographically close to the exchanges. Other systems perform an order of magnitude better using boutique or specialty hardware that is not available in the cloud, like the Intel MIC (Xeon Phi) or specialty GPU hardware.
  • At the end of the day, cloud providers are companies trying to make money. They're probably better at realizing economies of scale than you are, but when you cut out the middleman, maybe not, especially in areas like education that are very good at getting very deep vendor discounts. Cloud is cheapest when you need periodic scale and you don't need to support 100% of the load 100% of the time. As you move closer to 100% utilization, these economics evaporate a little bit. This makes cloud often a very bad choice for things like long-running, high-usage HPC clusters when you have the staff on hand to support it.
  • If you've ever read The Phoenix Project, you're very familiar with the idea that project staff and operational staff often overlap, and when they do, this poses a tremendous schedule risk to the business. One of the biggest benefits of cloud is that it removes a huge amount of operational uncertainty from the business. If the company is large enough to have separate infrastructure and application teams, they're able to realize a lot of these benefits without paying a middleman.

With all these things said, it's still unlikely that any new project from a reasonable organization is going to be entirely within the local datacenter. I don't care what your backup solution is, it's not as cheap as Amazon Glacier or Google Nearline. Likewise, even your best infrastructure organization isn't going to provide you the economics of 100% utilization that Amazon is striving for, and they're going to get better and closer to that number a lot faster than you are.

Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Apr 27, 2015

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



Docjowles posted:

The Stack Exchange folks are certainly interesting, and I'd love to see that blog post when it comes up. Very high traffic site running mostly on Windows/IIS instead of Linux? Check. Running on a few beastly bare-metal hosts vs a ton of VM's and/or ~~the cloud~~? Check. Employing some very high profile names like Tom Limoncelli? Check.

Do you know any of them personally? I feel like I remember them having a Denver office.

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009

nielsm posted:

Someone liked C# and MVVM a whole lot and wanted to work with that.

Yeah I think this is pretty much it. Their founders were experienced in .NET so that's what they ran with.

22 Eargesplitten posted:

Do you know any of them personally? I feel like I remember them having a Denver office.

Nah although I've met one or two of them at local Meetups. They do have a Denver office but I think it's mostly sales people.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

GreenNight posted:

My girlfriend got fired from her programming job at a start up today. Their reasoning? She doesn't fit in well enough into their corporate culture. Apparently her boss was getting irritated that she was the only one not going to strip clubs and getting drunk as gently caress at the bars on the company dime.

What the gently caress.

Sounds like your girlfriend is going to have a great payday from her clear cut wrongful termination suit!

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


That reminds me of another company where it's was good career move to get a tattoo of the company logo.

Prescription Combs
Apr 20, 2005
   6

Tab8715 posted:

That reminds me of another company where it's was good career move to get a tattoo of the company logo.

:laffo:

I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple people with company logo tats where I work... :raise:

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

psydude posted:

Sounds like your girlfriend is going to have a great payday from her clear cut wrongful termination suit!

Not sure how to even start that process. We're in Wisconsin where Walker just got right-to-work passed.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair

GreenNight posted:

Not sure how to even start that process. We're in Wisconsin where Walker just got right-to-work passed.

You start every legal process the same way: Call a lawyer.

ElGroucho
Nov 1, 2005

We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane
Fun Shoe

Inspector_666 posted:

You start every legal process the same way: Call a lawyer.

Yep. I don't care how ultra Republican your state is, you get a woman in front of a jury testifying that she was pressured in to visiting strip clubs, bars and places of ill repute and tell me if the usual Becky housewife that actually gets called to jury duty doesn't sympathize.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Tab8715 posted:

That reminds me of another company where it's was good career move to get a tattoo of the company logo.

The Marines?

GreenNight posted:

Not sure how to even start that process. We're in Wisconsin where Walker just got right-to-work passed.

Right to work means she can't be forced to join a union as a condition of employment. It does reflect the general balance of worker to employer power but is irrelevant to your wife's situation.

Call the state bar and ask for a referral for a lawyer specializing in wrongful termination.

http://www.wisbar.org/forpublic/ineedalawyer/pages/lris.aspx

Dr. Arbitrary fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Apr 27, 2015

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22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



ElGroucho posted:

Yep. I don't care how ultra Republican your state is, you get a woman in front of a jury testifying that she was pressured in to visiting strip clubs, bars and places of ill repute and tell me if the usual Becky housewife that actually gets called to jury duty doesn't sympathize.

Don't civil suits just have a judge?

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