Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

semper wifi: Oct 31, 2007

Armani posted:

Trust me, it'll be all over once the cops decide to mow it down. Then you can sleep at night again.

E: I have no answer for no one who can not remotely sympathize with this situation. These are your fellow Americans, where is your loving support?

What part of protesting injustice requires demolition of public property, or looting? How does mugging a hapless RT reporter help your situation WRT the police? If they got their poo poo together over there and stopped making themselves look worse than the police maybe they would be worth supporting but at this point it seems like a lost cause. "It's a few bad apples!" but that's the same argument the cops use and it's bullshit when they say it, too.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 19:54

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# ? May 28, 2024 09:29

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Lemming posted:

You think that if someone is trying to steal something from you you should just let them take it?

Only if they're a representative of the system in charge.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 19:54

hobotrashcanfires: Jul 24, 2013

GreyPowerVan posted:

Why does a Good Cop have to answer for what a bad cop does?

Answer: Because the good cop covers up for the bad cop

Hey, not always!

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-cadet-turns-cop-turning-body-cam-pummeling-victim/

Or well..good cop in training. And no, not even a repost, that's apparently the 2nd APD cadet to do so in the last month. Sadly the first quit..and it's hard to imagine this one having a great time in that police force afterwards. But hey, it's something positive at least.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 19:54

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

semper wifi posted:

The protesters in Ferguson burned down a non-zero percentage of their city in return for some token concessions from the PD. They got like, what, "we'll hire more black people" and "no more racist emails!"? They looted and destroyed their own neighborhoods, drove out businesses, and got almost nothing in return. Not only that but once the spotlight is off the town, things are only going to get worse between the citizens and the PD because relations are going to be at an all-time low.

What's the point of this bullshit, are you arguing against the concept of riots? Are you aware that riots have been going on since the literal dawn of civilization?

"They're BURNING their THEIR OWN town!!" No poo poo, this is Riot 101.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 19:56

Sorus: Nov 6, 2007; caustic overtones

semper wifi posted:

"The situation in Baltimore" you mean the one where rioters have successfully obliterated any actual message they might have had about the police and replaced it with pictures and videos of muggings, assaults, and looting? If you asked someone on the street right now, "what do you think about Baltimore?" the answer would come back "you mean the riots?". For like the fourth time now, the dumbass protesters shoot themselves in the feet while idiots on twitter cheer them on.

For those of us that live and work here no message was lost. If anything it was emphasized and dragged publicly into the light where it can't be ignored even by people that know it was a problem but have thus far decided to do nothing. The only concern anyone should actually have with regard to any riot is if people were hurt; property and possessions don't mean poo poo.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 19:57

Armani: Jun 22, 2008; Now it's been 17 summers since I've seen my mother

But every night I see her smile inside my dreams

semper wifi posted:

What part of protesting injustice requires demolition of public property, or looting? How does mugging a hapless RT reporter help your situation WRT the police? If they got their poo poo together over there and stopped making themselves look worse than the police maybe they would be worth supporting but at this point it seems like a lost cause. "It's a few bad apples!" but that's the same argument the cops use and it's bullshit when they say it, too.

Because the people protesting have largely never had any power, say in their own legislation, and a racial minority, on top of that, that are usually villainized from birth that they have a poo poo place in society, with no way to get out of it.

Like, you're asking what good damage is and you won't consider WHY they are damaging property. C'mon, man. Think.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 19:57

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

semper wifi posted:

"It's a few bad apples!" but that's the same argument the cops use and it's bullshit when they say it, too.

To you directly: Why does a peaceful protester have to answer for what a violent looter they've never met and don't agree with does? Are you aware that the police and citizens, as a whole, represent different groups with different responsibilities, both as enshrined by law and common loving sense?

It's also hilarious to me that you consider it "their" community when it's been pretty obviously proven to not be "their" community, per the DoJ report in Ferguson specifically.

Radbot fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Apr 27, 2015

# ? Apr 27, 2015 19:57

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

semper wifi posted:

The protesters in Ferguson burned down a non-zero percentage of their city in return for some token concessions from the PD. They got like, what, "we'll hire more black people" and "no more racist emails!"? They looted and destroyed their own neighborhoods, drove out businesses, and got almost nothing in return. Not only that but once the spotlight is off the town, things are only going to get worse between the citizens and the PD because relations are at an all-time low.

I thought it was the responsibility of the government to maintain civil order, and not mistreat the populace until anger boils over and all law and order breaks down.

No? You admit there are obvious problems in the civil administration, but the people in charge of it aren't at fault, now the people rioting in response to this terrible governance are all to blame? It's weird how anger at the government isn't an understandable reason to riot, yet anger at rioters is a totally expected and understandable reason not to fix any problems with governance.

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Apr 27, 2015

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:05

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

semper wifi posted:

What part of protesting injustice requires demolition of public property, or looting?

It doesn't, but for the people who believe protesting is pointless because things will never actually get better it's some good stress relief/opportunity to personally profit. On the other hand, the fact that it doesn't require it doesn't mean it can't be useful at achieving ends. Destruction of public property is a lot harder to ignore, after all.

quote:

How does mugging a hapless RT reporter help your situation WRT the police?

It doesn't, but it does provide the emotional satisfaction of symbolically striking back against the oppressors.

quote:

If they got their poo poo together over there and stopped making themselves look worse than the police maybe they would be worth supporting but at this point it seems like a lost cause.

What evidence do you have that if they got their poo poo together anything better would actually happen? Why does their not having perfect message discipline make them "not worth supporting"? Do you believe the whole protest should be disbanded, shut down, go home, just because some of those involved let their emotions or greed get the better of them, no matter how small a minority they are, and no matter how much good the protest itself could accomplish? Do you think the actual legitimate grievances should just be ignored and the lawlessness on the part of police allowed to continue simply because of a few angry opportunists?

quote:

"It's a few bad apples!" but that's the same argument the cops use and it's bullshit when they say it, too.

So are you going to start advocating abolishing police forces and sending all the police home now whenever one does anything wrong, even if the department condones, investigates, and kicks them out when they find them, even if it's an actual organization with power over its members and a history to build a single structure? Because anyone who does anything wrong immediately discredits the organization as a whole, even when the organization isn't much more than a loose knit group of angry individuals lacking power? You realize that no one here is arguing the police could be perfect in their individual actions always and forever, or that if they can't manage it its not worth having police, and yet you're arguing the same about the protestors despite all the advantages the police have over them organizationally.

Why, it's almost as if you've got a preset conclusion and everything you say is merely an attempted after-the-fact justification rather than evidence leading you to your ultimate conclusion.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:10

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

Whenever I hear people :qq:

ing about rioters angry that the justice system is once again failing them, you know what they are really saying is "why don't you just take the abuse with good nature?" since they don't seem to care that much about the initial issues that led to the riot or the economy of the neighborhood before the incident.

Riots are terrible, but the way to stop them from happening is to have a justice system that isn't a sham instead of blaming the victims for the only outlet of anger they have left.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:11

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Radish posted:

Whenever I hear people ing about rioters angry that the justice system is once again failing them, you know what they are really saying is "why don't you just take the abuse with good nature?" since they don't seem to care that much about the initial issues that led to the riot or the economy of the neighborhood before the incident.

Especially since the thing that lead to the riots is usually "looting" and "violence" committed by those in power that is far more damaging than that done by the protesters. It's almost as if there's a double standard in effect.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:12

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

GlyphGryph posted:

Especially since the thing that lead to the riots is usually "looting" and "violence" committed by those in power that is far more damaging than that done by the protesters. It's almost as if there's a double standard in effect.

Pillaging and murder are ok as long as Serious People say that the System did its job and the proper steps were taken. If you aren't satisfied it's because you just don't understand how things work. You are of course free to disagree but make sure you do it in a way that doesn't inconvenience anyone and can easily be ignored. :smugdog:

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:16

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Radish posted:

Pillaging and murder are ok as long as Serious People say that the System did its job and the proper steps were taken. If you aren't satisfied it's because you just don't understand how things work. You are of course free to disagree but make sure you do it in a way that doesn't inconvenience anyone and can easily be ignored.

Truly, institutionalized looting and violence is the only righteous looting and violence.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:18

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

It's a hilarious double-standard.

"Law enforcement as institutionalized robbery, a consistent record of harassment and violence against the citizenry, and open racism at all levels of government eventually leads to disregard for the law and rioting" - Pansy liberal apologism for criminals

"Riots only make the police hate the populace so of course they'll be even more cruel and violent towards civilians afterwards" - That's just level-headed realism!

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:24

Thesaurasaurus: Feb 15, 2010; "Send in Boxbot!"

Lemming posted:

The bag is the black man's, sorry about your racism.

Do you have a source on this? I mean, I believe it, but having the evidence to throw in racists' faces for a slam dunk would just make my day.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:32

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Thesaurasaurus posted:

Do you have a source on this? I mean, I believe it, but having the evidence to throw in racists' faces for a slam dunk would just make my day.

Page or three back.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:34

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Thesaurasaurus posted:

Do you have a source on this? I mean, I believe it, but having the evidence to throw in racists' faces for a slam dunk would just make my day.

The purse looks like the woman's, but several people were tweeting that she had been going around antagonizing protestors all day and some of the shots look a bit staged and intended to imply things that didn't happen. The "man throws chair" -> "broken window with chair in front" set that went up of her, for example, where a third shot of the scene indicate the window was already broken is a good example. The purse does appear to be hers, since people seem confused about that (she's carrying it in the other pictures), but the post I saw said she was trying to take the man's bag, not that he was trying to take her purse, but I can't find the tweet again now and for obvious reasons there's questions about reliability.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:38

Armani: Jun 22, 2008; Now it's been 17 summers since I've seen my mother

But every night I see her smile inside my dreams

nm posted:

Page or three back.

Thesaurasaurus posted:

Do you have a source on this? I mean, I believe it, but having the evidence to throw in racists' faces for a slam dunk would just make my day.

Fartmancer posted:

And one more link with photos and stuff: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/04/26/baltimore-protest/

But, you know, uh oh some people sure did get rowdy.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:38

Von Sloneker: Jul 6, 2009; as if all this was something more
than another footnote on a postcard from nowhere,
another chapter in the handbook for exercises in futility

Stuff is happening.
https://www.periscope.tv/w/Vx_AQTE2ODQxNTN8NzU4NTEwNYkCjyfn7JW-_hlg0WoiEssM5LjanMRASHkRfLbefw9m

e: injured officer was carried away after some rock throwing and gas(?) deployment.

Von Sloneker fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Apr 27, 2015

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:53

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Von Sloneker posted:

Stuff is happening.
https://www.periscope.tv/w/Vx_AQTE2ODQxNTN8NzU4NTEwNYkCjyfn7JW-_hlg0WoiEssM5LjanMRASHkRfLbefw9m

e: injured officer was carried away after some rock throwing and gas(?) deployment.

I wish he'd hold it sideways

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:58

Toshimo: Aug 23, 2012; He's outta line...

But he's right!

Von Sloneker posted:

Stuff is happening.
https://www.periscope.tv/w/Vx_AQTE2ODQxNTN8NzU4NTEwNYkCjyfn7JW-_hlg0WoiEssM5LjanMRASHkRfLbefw9m

e: injured officer was carried away after some rock throwing and gas(?) deployment.

I can confirm that Tear Gas canisters were deployed against the {protesters/rioters/youths} at Mondawmin.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 20:59

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/protesters-clash-with-police-in-baltimore/ar-BBiKrjh

Another stream here. 20 or so people running around in a group. Haven't seen violence in the few minutes I've been watching.

EDIT: Don't forget Baltimore Sun live reporting.

http://live.baltimoresun.com/Event/Latest_updates_from_the_Freddie_Gray_case_in_Baltimore

Latest update is 30 minutes ago, 4:17 pm EST.

quote:

JUVENILES CLASH WITH POLICE AT MONDAWMIN; THREAT PROMPTS DOWNTOWN CLOSURES

A large group of juveniles and police in riot gear clashed near Mondawmin Mall on Monday afternoon, while numerous downtown institutions and businesses closed early out of fears of violence. Police responded with shields and a tactical vehicle as they were pelted with rocks and bottles. Seven officers were injured in the melee, police said.

Lexington Market, a city courthouse and businesses including T. Rowe Price and Venable LLP said police warned them of large gatherings and protests downtown, days after protests over the death of Freddie Gray turned destructive.

According to a widely circulated flier, a high school "purge" was to take place at 3 p.m., starting at Mondawmin Mall and ending downtown. Such memes have been known to circulate regularly among city school students, based on a film "The Purge," about what would happen if all laws were suspended. Full story and more coverage here.

Also Monday:

In a funeral service Monday that was both personal and political, family, friends and strangers alike said farewell on Monday to Freddie Gray. Packed into the church were activist Dick Gregory and members of the family of Trayvon Martin. Also in attendance were politicians, from Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake to her predecessor, Sheila Dixon, who drew rousing applause from the crowd; Congressmen Elijah Cummings and John Sarbanes to the former representative, Kweisi Mfume.
Civil rights leader, the Rev. Al Sharpton, said Monday he plans to visit Baltimore this week to help push police for answers in the death of Freddie Gray. Sharpton said he also wants to plan a two-day march in May from Baltimore to Washington.
Baltimore Police say they have received a "credible threat" that rival gangs have teamed up to "take out" law enforcement officers. - Baltimore Sun Staff

Also reporting an officer is down, badly injured:

William Bear fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Apr 27, 2015

# ? Apr 27, 2015 21:41

Toshimo: Aug 23, 2012; He's outta line...

But he's right!

William Bear posted:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/protesters-clash-with-police-in-baltimore/ar-BBiKrjh

Another stream here. 20 or so people running around in a group. Haven't seen violence in the few minutes I've been watching.

The police were pelted with rocks/bricks/bottles/boards/etc. and have been using gas/pepper spray defensively to create distance. There's also looting going on and mass property damage across an entire quadrant of the city. Honestly, the police response has been pretty reasonable and mild so far.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 21:47

Chinatown: Sep 11, 2001; by Fluffdaddy; Fun Shoe

William Bear posted:

Also reporting an officer is down, badly injured:

Dude probably caught a brick to the head. Bummer.

Good for the BPD for not breaking out the assault rifles immediately like in Ferguson.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 21:53

Jazzimus Prime: May 16, 2002; The Brothers Autobot

What a bunch of delusional idiot liberals in this thread. :lol:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Apr 27, 2015 21:55

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

CVS getting looted on this stream. Burning car just outside.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/videos/news/2015/04/14/4409495/

Reported as being at Pennsylvania and North.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 21:55

emdash: Oct 19, 2003; and?

Jazzimus Prime posted:

What a bunch of delusional idiot liberals in this thread.

please, enlighten the thread as to the way, the truth, and the light

# ? Apr 27, 2015 21:57

Mavric: Dec 14, 2006; I said "this is going to be the most significant televisual event since Quantum Leap." And I do not say that lightly.

Why can't those negros just go back to their ghetto and be repressed/murdered quietly?!

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:00

shrike82: Jun 11, 2005

As Reddit put it so eloquently

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:03

Kanish: Jun 17, 2004

Mavric posted:

Why can't those negros just go back to their ghetto and be repressed/murdered quietly?!

Nope they are still killing each other at a decent rate.

But I guess I can't get over the irony of BGF Bloods and Crips uniting over the killing of poor black men

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:05

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

shrike82 posted:

As Reddit put it so eloquently

Why can't you stop masturbating to pictures of dead children?

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:05

esto es malo: Aug 3, 2006; Don't want to end up a cartoon

In a cartoon graveyard

shrike82 posted:

As Reddit put it so eloquently

lol they said the same poo poo about MLK's protests

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:06

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Ironic pillow in Gray's casket:

http://i.imgur.com/pk9hUx3.jpg

No peace yet. No justice yet, either.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:07

Chinatown: Sep 11, 2001; by Fluffdaddy; Fun Shoe

William Bear posted:

Ironic pillow in Gray's casket:

http://i.imgur.com/pk9hUx3.jpg

No peace yet. No justice yet, either.

Those shoes are fresh.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:10

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

shrike82 posted:

As Reddit put it so eloquently

Oh yeah white people really appreciated MLK, how did things turn out for him again?

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:11

bango skank: Jan 15, 2008; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

shrike82 posted:

As Reddit put it so eloquently

Hahahah oh man funny meme bro. But I couldn't help but notice that maybe your posting would fit in better there? They'd probably be able to appreciate your style of "racist uncle facebook post" poo poo-and-run without engaging in actual discussion better than we can.

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:13

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

poo poo like this doesn't just happen out of the blue. These people must have had a history of doing poo poo like this. Imagine how much respect their victims must have for law and order. Imagine how much respect other victimized people must have for law and order knowing that this happens.

quote:

Two former small town police officers in South Carolina should spend at least a year in prison for shocking a mentally disabled woman at least eight times with a Taser without giving her time to follow their orders, federal prosecutors say.

Both Eric Walters and Franklin Brown will be sentenced on federal charges Monday in Florence. The two Marion police officers pleaded guilty to deprivation of rights under color of law in October.

Walters was patrolling in Marion early on the morning of April 2013 when he saw 40-year-old Melissa Davis walking out of the yard of a home for sale. He asked her what she was doing, thinking she might have broken into the home, then shocked her with his Taser, according to court papers.

After Davis fell to the ground, Walters ordered her to put her hands behind her back, then shocked her four more times before she could respond, prosecutors said.

By the time Brown responded, Walters had determined Davis did nothing wrong and was removing the Taser probes from her back. Brown noticed one of Davis' hands had slipped from her improperly applied handcuffs and ordered everyone to move away and shocked Davis again, even though she was not trying to fight or escape, according to court papers.

Brown shocked Davis twice more, then offered to let her go if he could shoot her in the forehead one more time with his Taser, prosecutors said.

Brown told the other officers at the scene he shot Davis with the Taser because he "did not want to touch that nasty (obscenity)," according to his plea agreement.

Both officers are white. Court records did not indicate Davis' race.

Prosecutors said they agree with federal sentencing guidelines that ask for 12 to 18 months behind bars for Walters and an 18- to 24-month sentence for Brown. The guidelines are tougher for Brown because Davis was in a vulnerable position when he shocked her.

Walters' lawyer asked for a six-month prison sentence and six months of home detention because he is in poor health after several heart attacks suffered before age 39. The lawyer added that Walters had a good record as an officer before the incident. Brown's lawyers did not file any motions asking for mercy before the sentencing.

Prosecutors said the officers should have known Davis had a diminished mental state, and a lawsuit filed by her caretaker against the officers and the city of Marion said she was well known around town.

The civil suit said along with the physical pain and suffering from the shocks and their after-effects, Davis also continues to need help to deal with mental anguish from what happened. Her lawsuit is seeking a minimum of nearly $2 million.

The officers originally faced state charges, which were dropped when federal prosecutors took over. At least three officers in South Carolina have been recently charged with shooting unarmed suspects.

Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/2015/04/27/3719366_prosecutors-ask-for-prison-for.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:16

Von Sloneker: Jul 6, 2009; as if all this was something more
than another footnote on a postcard from nowhere,
another chapter in the handbook for exercises in futility

Here's a list of people on scene.
https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/lists/baltimore

# ? Apr 27, 2015 22:23