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Libertine posted:Forgiven won't want to go to teams who need a major upgrade at ADC position, but the players he could replace on top teams could probably start for half the teams in the league, so it's a big risk for any of them to take. I don't know who he moves to. I think any move would surprise me, but he's been making waves for a while now. Replacing Turtle would basically be the best possible move for tsm and Forgiven, but that does seem unlikely. Outside of that there isn't really a good move for him. He'd be better off waiting on Sk or loving around in the challenger scene until something pops up. Although I guess he could just get on a mid tier na team and pray for a better opportunity to come along. He really sounded keen on getting to na on the last Summoners Insight. Could join Alex's team and get in with them next split.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:26
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Sexpansion posted:MSI schedule is up: http://na.lolesports.com/schedule/2015-05-04 Not a fan of the 8 games on a single day schedule. TSM has to play both the 3 games with 8+ hours in between the first and last of them. You'd think they would've learned after they switched the LCS format so we no longer have superweeks.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:28
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I'm not really sure if Misfits is going to work out. From what I've seen RF and especially Remilia take a lot of abuse and don't respond to it particularly well. Of course it's not their fault, and it's a tough situation to be in, but with how the community is the trolling's only going to get worse if they make it into the LCS. I really hope their management has someone looking after the emotional health of the players, because I think that's going to be decisive.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:28
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Jayisspecial posted:Replacing Turtle would basically be the best possible move for tsm and Forgiven, but that does seem unlikely. Outside of that there isn't really a good move for him. He'd be better off waiting on Sk or loving around in the challenger scene until something pops up. I don't think Forgiven is a clear upgrade to Turtle by any stretch at this point. Both have insane mechanics and Forgiven knows how to play very safe, but Turtle has a much broader champion pool. It's a tossup and I think easier drafting tips the scales in favor of Turtle. (Wouldn't be a terrible choice to grab Forgiven as a sub and see if they can coach him into having a deep champ pool tho)
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Apr 29, 2015 17:29
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Redmark posted:I'm not really sure if Misfits is going to work out. From what I've seen RF and especially Remilia take a lot of abuse and don't respond to it particularly well. Of course it's not their fault, and it's a tough situation to be in, but with how the community is the trolling's only going to get worse if they make it into the LCS. I really hope their management has someone looking after the emotional health of the players, because I think that's going to be decisive. They looked terrible in their game yesterday. Nothing like LMQ's dominance in the scene. But I assume the roster is a work in progress.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:30
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Redmark posted:I'm not really sure if Misfits is going to work out. From what I've seen RF and especially Remilia take a lot of abuse and don't respond to it particularly well. Of course it's not their fault, and it's a tough situation to be in, but with how the community is the trolling's only going to get worse if they make it into the LCS. I really hope their management has someone looking after the emotional health of the players, because I think that's going to be decisive. Especially since it'll be at least 6 months before they even get a change of trying to qualify for LCS. That's an eternity for a challenger team.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:31
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I doubt any already successful team is rushing to do big roster swaps after the Rekkles/Elements debacle.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:33
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imo Forgiven would be a p big upgrade to turtle, and a huge one in laning phase i really think Forgiven / Lustboy could legit crush most asian bot lanes, man that would be sick
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Apr 29, 2015 17:39
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Tsm plays adcs that aren't Lucian or graves dude It would only work if forgiven were willing to completely change his play style and adc philosophy
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Apr 29, 2015 17:41
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SC Bracer posted:Tsm plays adcs that aren't Lucian or graves dude This. If you think Forgiven can work with TSM, go watch their match with SHRC at Worlds 2014 and ask yourself if he could have survived that lane. That's the minimum benchmark for flexibility he needs to pass, and Turtle's stepped it up since then.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:49
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Transient People posted:This. If you think Forgiven can work with TSM, go watch their match with SHRC at Worlds 2014 and ask yourself if he could have survived that lane. That's the minimum benchmark for flexibility he needs to pass, and Turtle's stepped it up since then. He probably would have done a lot better since Turtle didn't lane that well in those matches. But why would you gently caress up a winning team by adding a guy who is notoriously difficult to work with?
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Apr 29, 2015 17:54
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TSM has a real good team chemistry going for them and I don't see why that should be thrown out the window for a "maybe" upgrade as Turtle is doing well.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:56
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I would be shocked if TSM went after anyone right now. Like, maybe they would take Flame or Spirit or something, that caliber of player is the only swap they should be interested in.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:02
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ppl have a strange idea of forgiven, it wasn't that he was bad on other adc's (though those are his best two), SK as a team just didn't know what to do without his early pressure and would fall apart. if you think there's anyone in the west better than him as an adc except maybe Sneaky I dunno man.. take any of those other people, ban all their most played champs and see what happens, they ain't gonna do half the poo poo he did. not to mention he did it all with Unlimited and hook magnet Nrated, not the dude who is probably the best support in the west right now. also what do you think is gonna happen if man tries to triple ban a hypothetical TSM forgiven? bjerg would get his pick of whatever champ he wanted to go hog wild on. aaand i dunno why surviving in lane vs uzi at worlds somehow makes you a god
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Apr 29, 2015 18:09
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TSM fans also massively overrate Wildturtle
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Apr 29, 2015 18:13
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Lovechop posted:ppl have a strange idea of forgiven, it wasn't that he was bad on other adc's (though those are his best two), SK as a team just didn't know what to do without his early pressure and would fall apart. if you think there's anyone in the west better than him as an adc except maybe Sneaky I dunno man.. take any of those other people, ban all their most played champs and see what happens, they ain't gonna do half the poo poo he did. not to mention he did it all with Unlimited and hook magnet Nrated, not the dude who is probably the best support in the west right now. Being 20+ cs down is also not surviving a lane.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:15
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Because in that matchup, 'I survived the lane' traslates to 'I won the lane and completely outscale you, ADC to ADC. We now win unless I gently caress up'. It's impressive because if you've played enough ADC, you realize the crazy mental fortitude it takes to stay in that lane like he did, sometimes surviving by 50 HP and continuing to farm at every stage. It's seriously super loving impressive when you realize it happened against probably the single best ADC of 2014. And sure, let's play that game. Ban Jinx, Corki, Sivir against Turtle, he picks Lucian, Graves or Draven. Ban Graves, Lucian and Cait against Forgiven and he plays...Corki I guessssssssssss?? The difference in champion versatility between Forgiven and Turtle is gigantic. You can't force the latter to pick an ADC that doesn't fit him or his team's strat, you totally can do that to the former. I like and really respect Forgiven, but trying to pretend he doesn't have exploitable champion pool issues is just plain loony.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:17
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Lol you are really stretching the boundaries of reality to try to make turtle look good when his laning has been suspect for a long time now, ever since xpecial left. And I like turtle. Uzi would for sure have snowballed his lead if his team had held it together. Notably Uzi also did not get poo poo on in lane when he picked trist at that worlds.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:18
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also, TSM's goal is to win worlds. if they actually want to win worlds they're just not going to do it with turtle. if you want to be champions you're gonna have to do some poo poo. TSM right now are a really good team, but if they want to win it all I think getting someone like forgiven is the right way to go. if they just wanna be friends and have a good time and maybe make semis it's all good, but, yeah.. Transient People posted:Because in that matchup, 'I survived the lane' traslates to 'I won the lane and completely outscale you, ADC to ADC. We now win unless I gently caress up'. It's impressive because if you've played enough ADC, you realize the crazy mental fortitude it takes to stay in that lane like he did, sometimes surviving by 50 HP and continuing to farm at every stage. It's seriously super loving impressive when you realize it happened against probably the single best ADC of 2014. no
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Apr 29, 2015 18:20
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Lovechop posted:also, TSM's goal is to win worlds. if they actually want to win worlds they're just not going to do it with turtle. if you want to be champions you're gonna have to do some poo poo. We'll see whether that's the case in a couple weeks. I'm content to wait until then.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:21
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Transient People posted:And sure, let's play that game. Ban Jinx, Corki, Sivir against Turtle, he picks Lucian, Graves or Draven. Ban Graves, Lucian and Cait against Forgiven and he plays...Corki I guessssssssssss?? Or Vayne or Tristana or literally anything else because the mechanical differences between carries that aren't Draven or Kalista is not as big as the differences between every other position. I don't think that he is incapable of playing Jinx or Twitch or etc etc but those champs did not fit into SK's narrow win conditions which is to stomp lanes, win before the lane game hits.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:26
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Forgiven doesn't do anything for TSM, they focus on good champs like sivir and kalista and not average champs like graves. I think forgiven is better than turtle, whom I've never liked that much, but it's a style mismatch and a lot of effort and possible failure to gel for what? TSM is already the actual literal champions of the world going into MSI.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:28
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Firebert posted:Or Vayne or Tristana or literally anything else because the mechanical differences between carries that aren't Draven or Kalista is not as big as the differences between every other position. I don't think that he is incapable of playing Jinx or Twitch or etc etc but those champs did not fit into SK's narrow win conditions which is to stomp lanes, win before the lane game hits. Weren't you the one telling me Tristana was a terrible champion even as I said she was decent I mean, if we're gonna list 'can't play this outside of dumb enemy teamcomps' the ADC with a backup of 'so bad it's not worth it', I think you're making the point for me that Forgiven's champion pool is not the greatest.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:31
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Transient People posted:Weren't you the one telling me Tristana was a terrible champion even as I said she was decent She is terrible. Statistics bear this out. He still played her relatively well. He can probably play everything really well because he has great mechanics and spacing and ADC is a highly mechanics-based position. The bans against him worked primarily because SK cannot play with him (or anyone) on hard-scaling champions. Firebert fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 18:36
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Forgiven himself has said multiple times he think supportive adcs, and the supportive style of play are bad, and he doesn't do that poo poo. That means he's worthless to TSM's gameplan where they like to run things like Sivir (a champ Forgiven has called worthless) or Corki (a champ forgiven only decided to play because they banned his entire pool out not because he's capable of flexing onto it when he wants to, after calling it a garbage pick multiple times on social media). It would have to be a drastic change of mindset before he becomes the sort of adc that would be a good fit on TSM. Team balance implies that not everyone can be a star.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:39
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I don't think TSM could pick up forgiven even if they wanted to. They've got 3 exempt foreign players and forgiven is definitely not an exempt. The only way to go over 2 foreign players is if the addition is also an exempt right?
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Apr 29, 2015 18:52
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It would be insanity for TSM to pick up Forgiven. Like who really gives a poo poo if he's a mechanical god? He's also a massive rear end in a top hat who throws his team under the bus out in public and is a notorious shithead. TSM is running a team-focused game that has no place for a selfish drama bomb like forgiven especially considering this is the same team to kick then-best-support-NA Xpecial for being a turd. Like poo poo I can see the ask.fm now. "Been with TSM 1 week and Locodoco is on my case to play Sivir! Who is this noob to order me around? And he wants me to buy wards too? gently caress this poo poo! Ay yo tho Chipotle is amazing so worth."
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Apr 29, 2015 18:54
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Anyone who thinks Forgiven would be an upgrade over Turtle on TSM is not very smart. There is little mechanical difference between the players and while Forgiven may arguably have better decision making Turtle fits TSM far more. Not to mention the fact that it just can't happen until Bjerg counts as a full resident anyways.
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Apr 29, 2015 19:11
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Sexpansion posted:MSI schedule is up: http://na.lolesports.com/schedule/2015-05-04 They're going up against LCK champ first... then they have a game off, before TSM takes a turn. and ends with AHQ. Them, AHQ and TSM are playing 3 times that day. Not entirely sure I like the idea of 8 hours straight of league. And why has nobody suggested CLG Forgiven?
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Apr 29, 2015 19:14
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Because he would be an idiot to go to CLG
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Apr 29, 2015 19:16
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replacing Turtle makes no sense dude. besides, wouldn't Forgiven count as foreign? I don't think TSM has any slots for international players anymore.
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Apr 29, 2015 19:20
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Calax posted:They're going up against LCK champ first... then they have a game off, before TSM takes a turn. and ends with AHQ. Forgiven wants to play jungle?
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Apr 29, 2015 19:23
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Forg1ven's better than Turtle, but so what? He wouldn't fit TSM's style at all. League isn't about getting the biggest hard carries in every position; OMG tried that, and look what happened to them.
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Apr 29, 2015 19:29
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AdjectiveNoun posted:Forg1ven's better than Turtle, but so what? He wouldn't fit TSM's style at all. League isn't about getting the biggest hard carries in every position; OMG tried that, and look what happened to them. OMG tries to be a triple threat team tho, Gogoing / Cool / Uzi, which doesn't work that because you can't have 3 super hard carries with all the gold to feed them. TSM is generally a 1 threat team for the most part, until late game when turtle does normally get rolling pretty nice. They've said many times that they wanna change that e: also, just because TSM plays one style now, why does that mean they couldn't ever play a different one? ppl saying 'well he wouldn't work with TSM's style' one we don't really know because he's had to be the solo carry of CW and SK and play in that specific way, and two - why couldn't they play a different style? mix it up man Lovechop fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 19:44
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I think if both your Mid and ADC aren't threats to viciously bury every single game you play, then you aren't a world class team. And I think Support/Jungle/Top should basically all facilitate those two players with as much peel, utility, and team fight presence as possible. I think EDG and SKT have done this the best of anyone in S5.
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Apr 29, 2015 19:53
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Well this is a weird string of posts where people maybe overrated turtle a lil' bit, then people were creating strawmen way overrating him, and now people are clearly underrating him. In terms of raw skill, and team fit, and general team play I wouldn't put anyone in front of him besides maybe Sneaky. http://www.goldper10.com/stat/1393-na-lcs-spring-2015-ad-carry-statistics.html These aren't super open and shut statistics, but he was on average well ahead in gold @ 10m, and did above average damage with below average gold share. Turtle makes some silly valk-in plays from time to time, but you can also point to multiple examples this split where he carried or made specific plays that won the game.
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Apr 29, 2015 19:54
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I'd really go as far as saying that Dyrus is a bigger threat than Turtle is. When teams camp him, it's because as soon as he gets any kind of real momentum, even on tank champions, he's totally capable of hard carrying a game. He's not as great of an individual as Flame, and he's not as great at teleporting to snowball as Looper, but teams think he's serious enough of a threat that they'll camp him all game and that in itself gives the rest of the map so much breathing room. Turtle is another one of those players on TSM that has a really distinct role, if they put him on a high-scaling champion and nobody bothers him all game by 40 minutes he's zooms out of a team fight and gets quadras and penta kills consistently. He's a great clean-up ADC who's always got very good peel from the rest of TSM when they decide to let Turtle carry. What makes TSM so much better than a lot of other Western teams is that even though anyone on the team can carry a game, they work so well together and trust each other, and they let one-two people carry on a per-game basis where it's needed instead of trying to feed all three carries all the farm and hope for the best. Forgiven is a less wreckless Uzi. He's a great ADC that can own lane, but he needs all the attention and farm in the world because he's so focused on carrying the game despite what anyone else on his team is trying to do.
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Apr 29, 2015 20:02
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Everyone posted:turtle talk I think Turtle is probably the second best ADC in NA. He's aggressive, he has great positioning in teamfights, and he's extremely mechanically talented.
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Apr 29, 2015 20:07
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I think he does dumb poo poo all the time and has no game impact before 40 minutes.
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Apr 29, 2015 20:10
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Lovechop posted:OMG tries to be a triple threat team tho, Gogoing / Cool / Uzi, which doesn't work that because you can't have 3 super hard carries with all the gold to feed them. TSM is generally a 1 threat team for the most part, until late game when turtle does normally get rolling pretty nice. They've said many times that they wanna change that It makes more sense to try and get Turtle to play whatever different style you may want than to pick up Forgiven and have to mold your team around him. Also I don't actually think Forgiven is particularly better than Turtle. Yeah sure, he dumpstered all over his opposing bot lanes. In EU. Debate-ably the worst major region. A region where a team forsook wards and nearly won the split. I remain unconvinced that if he jumped ship to NA he would actually outperform Sneaky, Turtle, or maybe even Doublelift, let alone Piglet who I suspect is going to go on a tear in the Summer split assuming he doesn't go back to Korea.
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Apr 29, 2015 20:10
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