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Quidam Viator posted:See, YOU understand me, Radbot. The glory of taking an accelerationist position right now is that I literally can't lose. Since Sanders has a snowball's chance in hell, and there's no unified, captivating, powerful movement to reclaim the states, the governorships, or the local offices, no matter who wins, even if it's Hillary, we accelerate towards a total collapse of the nation, which I believe is long-due. Where do you live?
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Apr 29, 2015 15:03
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Dr. Tough posted:Where do you live? Up his own rear end It's funny that even when you drop the rhetorical flourishes you manage to poo poo out some baroque turd of a post.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:06
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He is a latin major from North Florida.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:11
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computer parts posted:Hillary Clinton would be a better administrator than Bernie Sanders, which is most of what the President does. I think the last couple of years has been a good argument for that. Real progressive policy seems to be decided on the agency level. And can be rolled back there incredibly easy without the rigors of legislative strictures, as the Bush administration (and in smaller microcosm, conservative states and agencies like Texas' Railroad Commission) has shown.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:11
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Shageletic posted:I think the last couple of years has been a good argument for that. Real progressive policy seems to be decided on the agency level. And can be rolled back there incredibly easy without the rigors of legislative strictures, as the Bush administration (and in smaller microcosm, conservative states and agencies like Texas' Railroad Commission) has shown. Agreed entirely. Hillary can have the White House--can you imagine Bernie running the Budget Committee if the Democrats take back the Senate in 2016? 
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Apr 29, 2015 15:17
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Quidam Viator posted:It doesn't stop me from wishing that even a few people would stop calling me crazy long enough to really ask themselves if maybe their position is the crazy one. Yes let's all seriously consider how Jeb Bush will be The New Hitler and the FEMA camps will finally be opened... for D&D posters !!!
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Apr 29, 2015 15:20
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Quidam Viator posted:That's the definition of insanity for me, that blind, unexamined certainty that everything's going to turn out JUST FINE because of course the way YOU see the world has to be the right one. You're just as emotionally invested in your own worldview as anyone else.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:25
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Was LBJ as much of a big ol' liberal as his Great Society plans and civil rights work would lead on? I know the guy was about as far from a racist as any Texan could be expected to be, but how much of that was fidelity to Kennedy?
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Apr 29, 2015 15:26
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I think Kansas and Florida have shown that accelerationism doesn't work.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:27
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FAUXTON posted:Was LBJ as much of a big ol' liberal as his Great Society plans and civil rights work would lead on? I know the guy was about as far from a racist as any Texan could be expected to be, but how much of that was fidelity to Kennedy? According to Caro's biography, despite his numerous faults, LBJ had a genuine desire to improve the lot of America's poor.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:28
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FAUXTON posted:Was LBJ as much of a big ol' liberal as his Great Society plans and civil rights work would lead on? I know the guy was about as far from a racist as any Texan could be expected to be, but how much of that was fidelity to Kennedy? During his work as a Senator he toed the line but he also literally went and volunteered to go teach poor Mexican kids who couldn't go to college because of their race.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:29
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Quidam Viator posted:Yes, computer parts. I understand that I will never convince any of you of anything, since I'm reduced to caricature. It doesn't stop me from wishing that even a few people would stop calling me crazy long enough to really ask themselves if maybe their position is the crazy one. Dude, you literally have suicidal ideation as a political philosophy. You need help.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:30
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FAUXTON posted:Was LBJ as much of a big ol' liberal as his Great Society plans and civil rights work would lead on? I know the guy was about as far from a racist as any Texan could be expected to be, but how much of that was fidelity to Kennedy? Literally none of it. LBJ's contempt for Jack (during their time in the Senate together) and outright hatred for Bobby were well known, even if he did succeed JFK to the Presidency by way of an assassination. His desire to improve the lives of people living in the rural parts of the country was, for all his faults, 100% genuine. If it hadn't been for his stubborn pigheadedness on Vietnam, I genuinely believe he'd be in the discussion for one of the greatest Presidents we've ever had. He was, according to every biography I've ever read, perhaps the last New Deal Democrat to be elected President--the last one who subscribed to Franklin Roosevelt's idea that "the test of our progress is not whether we add to the abundance of those who have much, but whether we provide enough to those who have little". Also, QV--you must be a rich white dude, because no one who isn't would be that devoted to accelerationism. The rest of us have to live here. I'd rather live in a flawed country than actively start burning it down around me. Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 15:32
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Eschers Basement posted:Dude, you literally have suicidal ideation as a political philosophy. You need help. Much like how atheists and evangelicals both agree that biblical literalism is the only true form of Christianity, accelerationists and Tea Partiers both agree that conservatives are the only way to enact their goals, and if life still sucks it just means they weren't conservative enough.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:32
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The X-man cometh posted:I think Kansas and Florida have shown that accelerationism doesn't work. It does if your goal is to get rid of Florida. *bugsbunnyflorida.gif*
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Apr 29, 2015 15:32
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Lmao at QV thinking his Latin skills will be useful in a post accelerationist America.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:40
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I'm sure he believes he'd be a part of some intellectual vanguard or vaunted artist class like that Code Green idiot
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Apr 29, 2015 15:41
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Quidam Viator posted:So I'll lose the flourishes, and ask directly: Do you really understand that you no longer have any space to make choices as a liberal? Do you understand how severely you are losing the fight for the hearts and minds of the American people? Do you understand that without some sort of radical change, one of the severity of the Tea Party movement, that liberalism is very close to death here in America? This isn't true, and is hysterical. "Liberalism"---whatever that is, in your mind, can't die. It's a belief system. What you're basically saying, though you're getting all agitated about it, is that in some areas we're making no progress, and in fact, backsliding. This is true. It has very little to do with voting for HIlary for president. That choice comes about because of the political climate, it doesn't cause the political climate. To answer your lovely, stupid questions: quote:So I'll lose the flourishes, and ask directly: Do you really understand that you no longer have any space to make choices as a liberal? Do you understand how severely you are losing the fight for the hearts and minds of the American people? Do you understand that without some sort of radical change, one of the severity of the Tea Party movement, that liberalism is very close to death here in America? I have lots of space to make choices. I don't know what you mean by 'liberal', but odds are I'm waaaay to the left of that. My choice is NOT constrained by our political system alone, it is constrained by the popular support for those principles combined with the limitations of our political system. If I want more progressive candidates elected, then we need more progressive voters. I don't think that we're 'severely' losing the fight, and I hate the term 'hearts and minds', it's kinda garbage. Progress is being made on some fronts, and lost on other fronts. I don't think that without some sort of radical change, liberalism is 'close to death' because that's an absurd thing to think, both because, as I said, an abstract concept can't die, not even figuratively, and because there's gains in some areas and losses in others. You are really pompous and you think you're brilliant and other people are dumb. Or that you're courageous and others are weak. This isn't true. Work on that.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:42
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Zelder posted:Lmao at QV thinking his Latin skills will be useful in a post accelerationist America. 
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Apr 29, 2015 15:44
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Zelder posted:Lmao at QV thinking his Latin skills will be useful in a post accelerationist America. It depends on if the collapse leads to the Warhammer 40k universe or not.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:44
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computer parts posted:During his work as a Senator he toed the line but he also literally went and volunteered to go teach poor Mexican kids who couldn't go to college because of their race. The part in Robert Caro's biography about him bringing electricity to Texas' Hill Country (where he is still wildly popular) I found particularily affecting.
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Apr 29, 2015 15:47
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Zelder posted:Lmao at QV thinking his Latin skills will be useful in a post accelerationist America. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" So QV can sit around doing nothing all day. 
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Apr 29, 2015 16:37
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I've read the first three books of Caro's biography and what I've taken out of it is that LBJ was a brilliant politician and a turd.
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Apr 29, 2015 16:41
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FAUXTON posted:Was LBJ as much of a big ol' liberal as his Great Society plans and civil rights work would lead on? I know the guy was about as far from a racist as any Texan could be expected to be, but how much of that was fidelity to Kennedy? He was an old-school Populist who was legitimately ultra-liberal when it came to poor white southerners. Regarding race, if you're hard on him you could say he was probably sort of racist, but his overweening ambition, desire for a political legacy and general flamboyant liberalism pushed him to decisively settle the Civil Rights issue once and for all Like I think basically he was both racist but also fundamentally believed in the New Deal and what it stood for, and Civil Rights was one of the fundamental endgame goals of the New Deal, so he was for it anyways. If that makes sense? Maybe he was more focused on economic rights for all instead of necessarily social equality? I haven't actually read a real biography of him, this is all just information gotten by osmosis on the internet icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 17:01
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icantfindaname posted:He was an old-school Populist who was legitimately ultra-liberal when it came to poor white southerners. Regarding race, if you're hard on him you could say he was probably sort of racist, but his overweening ambition, desire for a political legacy and general flamboyant liberalism pushed him to decisively settle the Civil Rights issue once and for all The whole "volunteering to teach poor Mexican immigrant kids in a segregated school in Texas before his political career began" sort of suggests otherwise... 
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Apr 29, 2015 17:20
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Hillary is now opposing mass incarceration, one of Bill's shittiest compromises. vox Majorian posted:The whole "volunteering to teach poor Mexican immigrant kids in a segregated school in Texas before his political career began" sort of suggests otherwise... It indicates he probably wasn't a segregationist, but it could also indicate the "white man's burden" type of white supremacy. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 17:20
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Majorian posted:The whole "volunteering to teach poor Mexican immigrant kids in Texas before his political career began" sort of suggests otherwise... You can feel highly charitable toward a people while still regarding them as inferior. This is not an uncommon thing for upper-class populists. LBJ was a good dude (practically a saint by the standards of his background) but I think a lot of his better impulses were more pity-based than egalitarian.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:22
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icantfindaname posted:He was an old-school Populist who was legitimately ultra-liberal when it came to poor white southerners. Regarding race, if you're hard on him you could say he was probably sort of racist, but his overweening ambition, desire for a political legacy and general flamboyant liberalism pushed him to decisively settle the Civil Rights issue once and for all I don't see much to suggest the man was racist even outside of the context of his times, really. I mean we've got what, that one unattributed quote which emerged decades after his death as evidence versus his actions to crush the klan, getting the CRA passed, and his other accomplishments in that field?
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Apr 29, 2015 17:24
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Also you can be very helpful and sincerely wish people well while thinking less of them. It's not some massive condemnation to say that a powerful white guy who was old in the 1970s may have held some racist ideas.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:26
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Alter Ego posted:Literally none of it. LBJ's contempt for Jack (during their time in the Senate together) and outright hatred for Bobby were well known, even if he did succeed JFK to the Presidency by way of an assassination. His desire to improve the lives of people living in the rural parts of the country was, for all his faults, 100% genuine. If it hadn't been for his stubborn pigheadedness on Vietnam, I genuinely believe he'd be in the discussion for one of the greatest Presidents we've ever had. He was, according to every biography I've ever read, perhaps the last New Deal Democrat to be elected President--the last one who subscribed to Franklin Roosevelt's idea that "the test of our progress is not whether we add to the abundance of those who have much, but whether we provide enough to those who have little". Thanks for the detail. I had this hunch that he was an old-school New Dealer who had more in common with the dirt-poor sharecropper than the former slaveholder keeping a boot on his neck. Good to know that was the case, even if he, as an actual non-racist Southern Democrat, was practically a unicorn. Funny that he had such friction with Kennedy, though not unexpected. Probably saw him as a fussy socialite whose awareness of poverty barely extended into the suburbs, let alone into the rural areas.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:28
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FAUXTON posted:Thanks for the detail. I had this hunch that he was an old-school New Dealer who had more in common with the dirt-poor sharecropper than the former slaveholder keeping a boot on his neck. Good to know that was the case, even if he, as an actual non-racist Southern Democrat, was practically a unicorn. It's important to note that Kennedy was in many ways a proto-Third-Wayer. Dude was explicitly reaching out to demographics that had long been Republican staples, which is to say monied coastal families. It's unsurprising that an old-timey southern populist Democrat would distrust him.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:31
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PupsOfWar posted:It's important to note that Kennedy was in many ways a proto-Third-Wayer. It's funnier that Kennedy probably hoped he'd appeal to Dixiecrats and he turned out to be a huge proponent of civil rights.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:33
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JeffersonClay posted:Hillary is now opposing mass incarceration, one of Bill's shittiest compromises. Gotta post the details of the article. It's actually pretty interesting. quote:Hillary Clinton calls for end to mass incarceration, reversing Bill Clinton legacy Kind of funny that Bill changed his position to "I was right to support harsher punishments in the 90's and it worked. But now it doesn't work and Hillary is also right to oppose it today. We are both right."
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Apr 29, 2015 17:37
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JeffersonClay posted:It indicates he probably wasn't a segregationist, but it could also indicate the "white man's burden" type of white supremacy. It could, but keep in mind, icantfindaname asserted, "if you're hard on him you could say he was probably sort of racist." I don't see much evidence that this was true, whereas his volunteering to teach Mexican kids in segregated schools at least suggests otherwise.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:41
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Gotta post the details of the article. It's actually pretty interesting. Sounds more to me like an admission that he overreacted. The real story isn't her endorsement of body cameras. It's her and her husband's shift from the 90s, from criminals being the enemy who must be locked away to criminals as people. Transcript here: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/feed/its-time-end-era-mass-incarceration/ William Bear fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 17:44
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LBJ also had probably the greatest speech-writing team ever, to the point that it's kind of comical listening to him read this lofty, monumental material in his folksy, texan-ish way. The American Promise motherfuckers
PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 17:47
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Majorian posted:It could, but keep in mind, icantfindaname asserted, "if you're hard on him you could say he was probably sort of racist." I don't see much evidence that this was true, whereas his volunteering to teach Mexican kids in segregated schools at least suggests otherwise. He also had no problem using the n-word to refer to African-Americans and once asked his chauffeur if he'd prefer to be called by his name or "boy." Upon receiving the obvious answer, he told him to get hosed - he was black so he better get used to not being called by his name. LBJ definitely exhibited racist tendencies on a regular basis. He was also genuinely devoted to reducing inequality - both racial and economic. These aren't contradictory things.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:01
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PupsOfWar posted:LBJ also had probably the greatest speech-writing team ever, to the point that it's kind of comical listening to him read this lofty, monumental material in his folksy, texan-ish way. bunghole
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Apr 29, 2015 18:02
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Kalman posted:He also had no problem using the n-word to refer to African-Americans and once asked his chauffeur if he'd prefer to be called by his name or "boy." Upon receiving the obvious answer, he told him to get hosed - he was black so he better get used to not being called by his name. Ah. I didn't know that, actually. Disappointing. Still, like the piece says, a man of his time and all that. I think he probably believed in what he was doing with the Civil Rights movement, at least to some extent. But clearly he was at least a little bit racist.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:04
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whydirt posted:I like that Edwards' '08 campaign has completely gone down the memory hole. I remember that election very well, since it was the first presidential election where I was old enough to vote, and yeah, he seems to be forgotten by most but at the time he was a real possibility. At least, he was around my friends at school. Then the scandal happened and whelp.
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