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Ferrinus posted:That's an attack spell. Only in Act of Hubris.
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Apr 29, 2015 21:10
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I asked in the comments, but just so everyone here is fully aware. That's the problem with Shielding. It's either the fiddliest and most combat-specific poo poo ever or an end-run around the fraying/unraveling/unmaking progression.
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Apr 29, 2015 21:18
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Ferrinus posted:That's an attack spell. Oh. I have not played Mage in ages.
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Apr 29, 2015 21:28
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Daeren posted:I may be misremembering but most of the ways demons can get agg involve serious risk. Changelings shouldn't be the sorts who can just snap their hands and get agg on a whim, though, and Beast has bigger fish to fry (though instant agg is a fish worth frying.) According to the Creative Thaumaturgy writeup, mages can deal agg with Unraveling at 4 and with 5 they just destroy whatever they're Unmaking without fiddling with "damage"  ^
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Apr 29, 2015 22:00
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http://theonyxpath.com/the-creative-arts-mage-the-awakening/quote:Unravelling spells can significantly impair or damage phenomena under the Arcanum’s purview, or directly inflict severe damage using the forces of an Arcanum. A raging storm might become a calm summer’s day (Forces), solid iron reduced to dust (Matter), even spells can be torn asunder (Prime). Mages can hurl fire (Forces) at their enemies, or cause aneurysms and heart attacks with a glance (Mind or Life) Damage inflicted by a direct Unravelling attacks is lethal, but can be upgraded to aggravated by spending a point of Mana and one Reach.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:02
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I asked in the comments, but just so everyone here is fully aware. Shield somebody from chemical bonds, watch them dissolve.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:19
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I asked in the comments, but just so everyone here is fully aware. They suddenly go flying off at a right angle to the surface of the earth and splatter on the nearest building?
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Apr 29, 2015 22:23
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Throwing fire at someone shouldn't be Unraveling Forces, it should be Weaving (scooping up and weaponizing fire), Patterning (turning some sound or light or whatever to fire, then maybe Weaving it at someone), or Making (hey, presto: some fire!). Possibly I should be saying Ruling rather than Making because I'm not quite sure of the difference in 2E, but it shouldn't be Unraveling. Practices should be something you do TO, not WITH, the Arcanum.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:25
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It doesn't sound like shielding will completely protect you from things unless, presumably, you have a really high potency on the spell. So if you don't roll well you just get like lunar gravity. You could suddenly get really good at basketball, though.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:28
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Kurieg posted:They suddenly go flying off at a right angle to the surface of the earth and splatter on the nearest building? Turning off gravity wouldn't do that. That'd require screwing with inertia and momentum relative to the Earth.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:29
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I'd rather use Space shielding to prevent someone getting any further or closer to me, and then walk them off a cliff before dismissing the spell.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:31
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RPZip posted:Turning off gravity wouldn't do that. That'd require screwing with inertia and momentum relative to the Earth. Right, but your inertia and momentum is trying to go in a straight line, earth's gravity is what's keeping you in a circle.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:52
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Gilok posted:It doesn't sound like shielding will completely protect you from things unless, presumably, you have a really high potency on the spell. So if you don't roll well you just get like lunar gravity. What is the Mage equivalent of a Chaos Dunk?
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Apr 29, 2015 23:11
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Kurieg posted:Right, but your inertia and momentum is trying to go in a straight line, earth's gravity is what's keeping you in a circle. That's Fallen physics, not Supernal reality. Edit: you'd also move tangential to the Sun, the Milky Way, and potentially the Local Group if this worked like that.
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Apr 29, 2015 23:17
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I think it's generally a good idea to assume that magic works relative to the planet earth in most circumstances, such that someone whose personal gravity gets suspended just starts floating around aimlessly unless they can grab onto something.
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Apr 29, 2015 23:30
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Ferrinus posted:I think it's generally a good idea to assume that magic works relative to the planet earth in most circumstances, such that someone whose personal gravity gets suspended just starts floating around aimlessly unless they can grab onto something. I disagree. For every action, there is a consequence. Sometimes those consequences occur in outer space.
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Apr 30, 2015 00:01
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Kurieg posted:Right, but your inertia and momentum is trying to go in a straight line, earth's gravity is what's keeping you in a circle. Kinda yes, kinda no not at all. Gravity keeps you oriented towards the earth's center of mass, but it's not what's keeping your rotational velocity from flinging you into the sky - that's your existing inertia and rotational velocity. To give the obvious example, the force needed to keep you going the same direction as the earth as it rotates around the sun is obviously weaker than gravity by a lot (source: gravity , so in a worse case even if it stopped working you wouldn't be moving away from the earth any faster than gravity was already keeping you adhered to the planet, and would actually be moving much more slowly than gthat. I could probably dig up the actual math on this, but I'm not that invested. You'd drift a little rather than being completely motionless, but you could counteract that by holding onto something if nothing else. RPZip fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 01:04
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Kurieg posted:They suddenly go flying off at a right angle to the surface of the earth and splatter on the nearest building? You mean tangential. A right angle would mean flying straight up - which is what it would look like, but not the whole story. And yes, they'd move in a tangent to the still-rotating ground beneath them which, to someone standing on the ground, would look like them slowly lifting off the ground and drifting off into the sky at seemingly-exponentially-increasing speeds as you rotate along, out, and then away from under them and they keep moving on their linear vector instead.
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Apr 30, 2015 01:09
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Ogre Truefriend is the best 2E Changeling. Sorry, chumps.quote:Ogre: A large hulking ape-like brute who seems like they could be a monstrous sidekick from an adventure story for children.
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Apr 30, 2015 06:38
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So if Prime has Truths in it's purview could a Prime Unraveling spell alter the truth? Could you use it to make cops disbelieve someone's alibi or change lab results? Could you use it to change fundamental aspects of a person, make a coward brave or a wise man foolish?
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Apr 30, 2015 06:47
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Ferrinus posted:That's an attack spell. No, no it isn't. The Bashing at 3, Lethal / Agg at 4 is for Direct Attack Spells, which are when a mage looks at someone and thinks "you there, take 3 bashing damage" as her imago. If you make their car crash, or the building collapse on them, or make electricity arc out of the walls onto them, or superheat the air around them, or curse them with luck so terrible a safe falls on their head, they will take whatever damage is appropriate, no matter which dot of which Arcanum you used to set them up for a fall.
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Apr 30, 2015 08:21
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Ha-ha, then it's an attack spell but not a direct attack spell! Ferrinus wins again. Seriously, though... how severe is the crash? How much roof falls in? How much current do you draw? How hot is the air? How bad is the luck? Several of those actually sound like exactly the thing that gets dialed up and down based on Imago and/or casting successes rather than ST judgement/consistency with a previously-described environment. The way you put it, "direct attacks" themselves are incredibly niche and might not need to exist at all, instead simply calling for things like "heart attack", "creeping necrosis", and "dissolving into sky-blue pixels" to be added to some list of example weaponizable hazards.
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Apr 30, 2015 08:34
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Behold my terrible power, mortals. The ability to exert my will against the Fallen World, inflicting devastation on my foes limited only by ST fiat
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Apr 30, 2015 13:19
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Behold my terrible power, mortals. The ability to exert my will against the Fallen World, inflicting devastation on my foes limited only by ST fiat Welcome to Mage. 
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Apr 30, 2015 13:20
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Welcome to Mage.
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Apr 30, 2015 13:21
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Results-Based Determinism— Hypothetical Omniscient Perceiver— Jess Heinig Forever— Let's Fight.
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Apr 30, 2015 13:24
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I prefer HYP.Dave Brookshaw posted:No, no it isn't. I am by no means a Mage expert, but this is strange. I get some of these as setting up other hazards that will do their own damage (such as the safe example), or the car crash (which may not deal any damage to the driver at all, depending on how bad it is). But then some of the others seem like straightfoward attack spells. Electricity arcing out of the walls and frying people isn't usually something that happens by Fallen World rules, unlike safes falling due to gravity, so it's just a magical attack. Same with superheating the air around a target; that seems like a regular Forces attack too. Emy fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 17:56
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Emy posted:I am by no means a Mage expert, but this is strange. I get some of these as setting up other hazards that will do their own damage (such as the safe example), or the car crash (which may not deal any damage to the driver at all, depending on how bad it is). But then some of the others seem like straightfoward attack spells. Electricity arcing out of the walls and frying people isn't usually something that happens by Fallen World rules, unlike safes falling due to gravity, so it's just a magical attack. Same with superheating the air around a target; that seems like a regular Forces attack too.
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Apr 30, 2015 18:40
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It seems to me that the writers are terrified of telling players that no matter how Clever a mage is with their magic, the exarchs declare that in the Fallen World disciples of an arcana do a single bashing per potency in a single combat round with a spell.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:00
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Yawgmoth posted:Yeah, that sounds like the kind of thing that positively screams "abuse the hell out of me!" because if blasting a guy with fire is Forces+Gnosis-Defense but setting his clothes on fire is just Forces+Gnosis, why in the hell would anyone do the former?
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Apr 30, 2015 19:11
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paradoxGentleman posted:Because the latter doesn't work on naked people. Who would a mage fight naked except a werewolf?
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Apr 30, 2015 19:14
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Kavak posted:Who would a mage fight naked except a werewolf? A Thrysus, clearly.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:20
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Gerund posted:It seems to me that the writers are terrified of telling players that no matter how Clever a mage is with their magic, the exarchs declare that in the Fallen World disciples of an arcana do a single bashing per potency in a single combat round with a spell. Well, nothing works like that any more. A sword doesn't deal one lethal per success... it deals three (plus successes). A chainsaw deals five, a knife deals one, and so on. It seems like this should be extensible to eighteen-wheelers and heart attacks, even when the hazard is one you, the caster, can customize (that's when you just set the bonus rather than asking your ST or a book for one). It seems like some kind of ironclad 3 = bashing, 4 = lethal rule has no place here, though, except as a rough guideline.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:00
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My main hope is that blasting spells are the inferior option, damage and resource opportunity wise, to simply shooting or stabbing someone to death. That there are fringe benefits - like setting someone on fire as a result of the attack, or whatever - but that, when push comes to shove, two to the back of the skull while waiting in a queue does more for efficient, immediate death than magic could. When it comes to damage-dealing magic, the advantage should be environmental effects, killing without a trace, killing at sympathetic ranges, paralysis or other Conditions, or what have you, not that it's actually killier than simply shooting someone. I like Awakening when it's acknowledging Fallen World 'solutions' rather than invalidating the practicality of mundane effects.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:21
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Yawgmoth posted:Yeah, that sounds like the kind of thing that positively screams "abuse the hell out of me!" because if blasting a guy with fire is Forces+Gnosis-Defense but setting his clothes on fire is just Forces+Gnosis, why in the hell would anyone do the former? Whoever said blasting a guy with fire was Forces+Gnosis-Defense? (EDIT: Sorry. Yes. To clarify - whoever said you got Defense against spells?)
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Apr 30, 2015 20:49
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jagadaishio posted:My main hope is that you are pummeled by an endless barrage of Magic Missiles until you recant. Higher Arcana make you more context-free than low Arcana. You don't need to find fire if you can turn any energy you have at hand into fire, and you don't even need to find energy if you can create fire from nothing. The advantage of using environmental effects is that they exist in the scene for you to make use of whether or not you're a century-old obsessive who's replaced every pursuit they once had in their lives with the study of the Arcana. Ball of Abysmal Flame should be rarer and more technically demanding than Gas Main Eruption; making it also outright weaker would just be stupid. Wishing someone to death should be more powerful than shooting them with a gun for the same reason that wishing yourself to Paris should be more powerful than buying a plane ticket - assuming you're that good at making wishes.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:53
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Gerund posted:It seems to me that the writers are terrified of telling players that no matter how Clever a mage is with their magic, the exarchs declare that in the Fallen World disciples of an arcana do a single bashing per potency in a single combat round with a spell. We have ample experience noting that no matter how the rules state it, "Hurr I turn the air in your lungs to cyanide ZILLION DMG" will always be a part of Mage discussion.
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Apr 30, 2015 22:34
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Ferrinus posted:My main hope is that you are pummeled by an endless barrage of Magic Missiles until you recant. That's not how I meant 'environmental,' but it was my fault for being unclear. I was talking about effects, not sources - attacks that leave rooms on fire, that leave the ground collapsing out from under people, and so forth. And the thing that makes wishing sometime to death 'powerful' isn't that it kills them harder than a gun. It's that it kills them at sympathetic ranges without leaving a trail of evidence back to you. That's what I'm taking about with fringe benefits that make the attack spells situationally useful. Shooting electricity at someone won't kill them as fast as shooting them, but it will drop them like they'd been tazed. Psychically assaulting someone until they have a brain aneurysm won't do as much damage as a bullet to the brain, but it also won't leave a forensic trail back to your gun. And wishing yourself to Paris had the chance of landing yourself somewhere far from any taxis and with no record of legally entering the country, but without any travel time or annoying layovers beyond the time spent getting the sympathetic link and casting the spell. Magic should never just completely invalidate the mundane options - they should offer clear advantages and disadvantages to them, or enable you to do things that would instead be otherwise impossible. And in the case of blasting spells, I think that shooting someone should usually do more damage, while magic instead offers all kinds of fringe benefits depending on what you're trying to achieve with your attack.
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Apr 30, 2015 22:35
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MalcolmSheppard posted:We have ample experience noting that no matter how the rules state it, "Hurr I turn the air in your lungs to cyanide ZILLION DMG" will always be a part of Mage discussion. Doesn't your "called shot" damage spell model perfectly allow for and encapsulate it, though? Conjuring cyanide in someone's lungs is obviously a Matter spell tuned to deal an instant 10L or whatever. You don't need to make rules for cyanide. jagadaishio posted:That's not how I meant 'environmental,' but it was my fault for being unclear. I was talking about effects, not sources - attacks that leave rooms on fire, that leave the ground collapsing out from under people, and so forth. The disadvantage of magic is that it's magic. The prerequisites, costs, and consequences of using magic are really dire, fraught, etc. because the magical eclipses the normal. It'll still be true that a point-and-click heart attack is harder to trace, quiet, etc. than an actual bullet. Why would it be less dangerous? What balances Finger of Death against Smith & Wesson 9mm isn't that one deals more damage while the other inflicts a negative status effect (or whatever), it's that the former need be wrested from the chill grasp of the netherworld, fueled with heavenly power, and struck against Creation so hard as to threaten to invite cthonic outsiders right into your living room, while the latter is protected by the second amendment. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 00:07 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 00:03
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Whoever said blasting a guy with fire was Forces+Gnosis-Defense?
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May 1, 2015 01:45
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