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Apr 30, 2015 00:13
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Any idea if there will be a Super Dragon Ball will have a manga to go along with it? Or is Toriyama not going down that road again
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Apr 30, 2015 00:38
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zelah posted:Any idea if there will be a Super Dragon Ball will have a manga to go along with it? Or is Toriyama not going down that road again With it airing in just over a month or two, I would doubt it.
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Apr 30, 2015 00:45
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Nzelah posted:Any idea if there will be a Super Dragon Ball will have a manga to go along with it? Or is Toriyama not going down that road again Not unless its like that thing where they sometimes turn an anime into a manga.
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Apr 30, 2015 01:00
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Another effort post! We've gotten to the fourth section I've promised to cover while exploring the art of Akira Toriyama's Dragonball. If you want to catch up on the previous posts in this series, you can click the ? under my name or read them here: https://manuelamalasanya.wordpress.com/effort-series/ In this and my next post, I'll be exploring Toriyama's use of visual storytelling. This set will be a little different from the others since it gets more theoretical, and I apologize in advance for frontloading this topic with a giant wall of text. What do I mean by visual storytelling? Toriyama, already an industry veteran by the time he began creating Dragonball, is a master of visual storytelling. What I mean by that is that Toriyama uses his art to do more than just show us what nonverbal events are happening in any given scene. The art reveals to us details about the setting we are in, the mood we should be feeling, and who the characters really are. Forget "Show, Don't Tell," Remember the destination Anyone who has ever had instruction in creative writing or who has read any kind of pop culture criticism has heard the rule "Show, Don't Tell." The point is that when we're consuming some work of fiction it's boring and not fun to have a bunch of details of supposedly interesting things spoon-fed to us when it would be more interesting to actually see those things instead. In my experience, however, this "rule" is an axiom cooked up in response to the fact that nobody likes an exposition dump, but it doesn't do a good job of explaining why "telling" is bad. Lajos Egri, in The Art of Dramatic Writing, points out that when you're telling any kind of story you don't have to know how it will end when you actually start writing it, but you HAVE to know the premise, which usually just a brief set of words that sum up the message of the story, such as "Bravery leads to victory" or "selfishness leads to ruin." Egri says that people who start writing a story without a premise are like someone who takes off running in a random direction who doesn't know where they're going but will decide when they get there. (He goes so far as to say they're lunatics; clearly jogging was not all the rage in 1942 Hungary.) We like most stories to play out like a scientist proving a thesis - a story is a stand-in for real life. We want the story to say "If someone is like this in this circumstance, then the result is this." So to put it very simply, while you don't have to know exactly how your story ends you have to know the purpose of your story and the direction in which it's going. So you need to include the things that will take your audience there ...and ideally? NOTHING ELSE. But that's crazy talk, Xibanya! How limiting! How can you say that?! Sorry, it's true. This is one of the things that is SO hard for a beginner to creative writing to grasp. If something does not carry the audience in the direction of the premise, it has no business being in your story. (Speaking as someone who has had their work of fiction accepted on the condition that severe cuts be made to it, it can be a difficult and emotional for the writer to identify what stays and what goes.) Sometimes, Tell, Don't Show? In fiction, what actually drives the story forward and demonstrates your premise is the cast. The setting exists to provide the circumstances that allow the characters to prove your point. Egri writes that a character must have no choice but to act in the way they do. He doesn't mean that a character shouldn't be faced with choices (actually most good narratives demand the character be faced with dilemmas) but that given the character's personality and experiences, they must only behave in a way that is true to who they really are. From the audience's point of view, we decide what a character's personality and experiences are by observing what they do and putting it together like a puzzle. If a character shows up and they verbally narrate their life story all at once AND our main characters patiently wait around for them to finish, that tells us that this new character is experiencing some kind of unusual inner pressure that compels them to reveal the intimate details of their life, that they don't care who is listening, and that they're probably so inwardly focused that they may not be in an emotional state that renders them capable of really listening to others. If we suspect that this isn't the way the author intends us to understand this character, then we're taken out of the story because the character isn't acting "the way they would really act." If a character is a tough guy who doesn't give a poo poo about what other people think, they will tell the other characters so - by acting like a tough guy who doesn't give a poo poo about what other people think. How did he get that way? Let the reader fill in the gaps - the character probably had a rough childhood or something. But what if you want the audience to know the character's entire detailed life story down to very specific events? You could show it in flashback or tell it in narration, but you risk boring the reader, since if you set up the rest of your story properly, they want to find out what happens next. This generally only works if the flashback or narration is very brief (like maybe a panel or two) and is a detail we HAVE to know but can't have explained to us by the character themselves for some reason. But what if you need more than just a panel or two to explain this character's very very important backstory? If those events in the past are so important, why not start the story there (or story arc, in the case of an ongoing series)? If that's a bad idea because that's not where the story that actually follows your premise really begins, maybe you should reconsider including this character's sob story. But let's consider the approach from a different angle. Goku is tracking down his grandfather's four star dragonball. He wants it so badly that he is trudging through a snowstorm in pursuit of it. He is eventually overwhelmed by the cold and collapses. A girl about his age finds him and takes him back to her home. The girl and her mother give him blankets and warm liquids and he soon recovers. They ask him why he was out in the cold explains that he's looking for the four star dragonball. They become afraid and explain that an army of mercenary thugs have been terrorizing their town on the pretense that they're looking for dragonballs. The army has enslaved her father and her neighbors and is forcing them to search for the dragonballs; they have also imprisoned the village chief and will kill him if they don't comply. After hearing this, Goku cheerfully tells the girl and her mother that he'll take care of the problem for them. Hey! We just "told" the kid's sob story instead of "showing" it! I didn't get a flashback! I feel gypped! But let's think about this. The overarching premise of Dragonball is that a guy who is so pure-hearted that he only cares about fighting will always succeed. What is important here is not understanding the fear and pain the girl felt when her father was taken away or the anxiety she feels about what will become of the village. What's important is seeing how the main character (Goku) reacts when confronted with this situation. Goku actually only shows the faintest shred of sympathy and it's not really clear that Goku is cognizant of how scared and unhappy the girl and her mother are. We make fun of movies where characters barely react to being told awful things because it shows the characters to be low-empathy weirdos (Anakin: "They're animals and I slaughtered them like animals! Even the women and children!" Padma: "eh." Um, Padme is supposed to be a perceptive and kindhearted person. But she doesn't seem that concerned about the pain and guilt Anakin feels about snapping and murdering the gently caress out of a bunch of people nor does she seem appalled on behalf of, you know, the people who got murdered?) but in this case Goku's low emotional intelligence is entirely intentional. All Goku is thinking about is decking more guys in the schnoz. An Interview with Toriyama and Nozawa posted:Interviewer: What is Son Goku to Toriyama-sensei? http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/akira-toriyama-masako-nozawa-special-talk/ The kid's a plot device and only has to have enough characterization to pass muster as an actual human instead of a cardboard cutout. Contrary to what you might think based on the Star Wars expanded universe or Tolkein's works, that's good. If a character forms part of your central premise, they should be real people with real emotions, wants, and needs. But if they aren't? gently caress 'em. They're furniture. A Potempkin village of plot. A bad writer focuses on fleshing out the complex motives of characters who don't advance the story's premise. Why does an intelligent woman like Mai work for Pilaf? I hate to say "who cares" because it's fun to discuss, but as far as the plot is concerned, she is just an extension of Pilaf's character. The story needed to show that Pilaf was on some level aware that his plans were not good. In real life such a person might have nagging inner doubts. As explained in a previous entry, visual storytelling requires exaggeration, so Pilaf needs minions for him to talk to. Plot, Subplot Wait one gosh darn minute! Toriyama gives us a visual flashback of Nam's village! We see that his village has no water and that they're doomed unless they get some. Why doesn't Nam just say "I have to win so that I can get the prize money to bring water back to my village?" Actually, he does say that too. What gives? Well while Dragonball's premise is "a guy who is so pure-hearted that he only cares about fighting will always succeed" the Tenkaichi Budokai arc has a different but complimentary premise, which I would sum up as something like "Putting all of yourself into something will give you a better result than just aiming for the material benefits of success." Goku fights until he collapses, but he still loses the tournament. However, outside of fame and official recognition, Goku's just as well off as if he had actually won first place - Roshi ends up spending all the prize money on Goku's dinner, so Goku effectively won the prize anyway. We see a parallel in Nam's story. Nam gives it his all, but he still loses his match with Goku. But Roshi is so impressed by his pure motives and fighting spirit that he provides Nam with all the water he would have spent his prize money on. Nam too is just as well off as if he had won first place. Nam's story is the tournamen arc's subplot, and it's generally a good idea to have the subplot's premise be the same as that of the main plot, as it strengthens the premise to show that it can be applied in different contexts. We are shown flashbacks of Nam's village because we ARE meant to empathize with Nam and understand the emotions that drive him to fight. Nam is a supporting character in the main plot, but he's the main character in this subplot. And look at the other tournament fighters - Ranfan and Bacterian are presented as dirty (  ) fighters who are relying on tricks instead of skill to win. Neither of them get a particularly dignified exit.Dual Purpose With that in mind, more is always better. More worldbuilding! More characterization! More reveals of backstories! It makes the story feel richer and the premise more solid. But how can you cram in more when you're not supposed to have a bunch of narration boxes full of exposition or a bunch or flashbacks or characters saying things they wouldn't actually say? Well, nobody said you can't do more than one thing at a time. The best way to show more is to take a character-based approach. Show us more of the world by having the characters interact with it while advancing the story. Show us more of the characters by having them dress the way their characters would choose to dress themselves and do things they would choose to do. Exclude everything else. And if you're in a visual medium, do even more. Ideally everything in a panel or frame will not only advance the story, and reveal character, it will also provide visual pointers to direct the flow of the reader's gaze, become part of a clear and pleasing composition, and indicate a scenes intensity and duration. Coming up next: discussion of what Toriyama chooses to include or exclude on the panel level and page by page analysis of Chapter 30. Pictures! Lots of pictures!
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Apr 30, 2015 01:01
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Here are the pages I reference. Sorry they're in Spanish, I'm too lazy to scan my Viz copies. Sono's Sob Story  Sono: That's a Dragonball? Goku: It sure is! Goku: My grandpa's Dragonball looks like this but it has four stars. Goku: In total there are seven Dragonballs and if you join them all you can summon Shenlong and he will grant you a wish! Note how we get a long horizontal panel here with Shenlong in the background. We're meant to bathe in Goku's wonderment at how cool it is that there's a fukken dragon that grants wishes. Sono's mom: Now I understand! They want to use them to conquer the world! That's why they're so desperate for them! Goku: According to the radar, there's a Dragonball somewhere around here. Sono: I get it now! That's why my father and the rest have been working so hard just to find it. Sono: This is terrible...The Red Ribbon Army...has forced the people of this village to work as if they were slaves.  Goku: So why don't you beat 'em up? Sono: Impossible! They're armed to the teeth! Sono: In that tower they're keeping the mayor of our village hostage. If someone dares to try to rescue him, they'll kill him. Goku: We'll see about that. Time to get going! Goku: Thanks a lot for saving my life! I'll save your village to retun the favor. Sono/Mother: What?! Sono: They're adult and you're just a kid! They'll kill you! RR Guy: There he is! RR Canine: Get 'im! Nam's Sob Story  Roshi: Hey! How envious you make me! Fighting against such a beautiful woman! Roshi: What what? His eyes seem as serious as a manga character's. He's not playing around. I feel in him an incredible spirit, as it the tournament were of great importance to him. Roshi: Let's see.  Boy: Brother, I'm very thirsty. Woman: Even the well is dry now. Man: This isn't good. We won't be able to harvest anything with a sun like this. This village is finished. Nam: In six months the wet season will come. Until then I wil go to the city to bring you all water. Woman: But if you do that we won't have much water left for the vegetables. There's no way to endure two months that way. Nam: I will enter the Tenkaichi Budokai and buy water with the pize money. The fact that the tournament is happening right now is a gift from God.  Woman: Thank you very much...but how will you get there? Man: Nam, have this money. It's from the entire village and I think that it will at least be enough for you to make the trip. Nam: I promise to win and bring you all water. Villagers: ...Give it your best...Don't worry if you lose...Fight hard... Roshi: Now I see... Roshi: I understand. And that's why he looks like an rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:00
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That's clearly Jackie Chun in the Nam sequence.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:09
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Potsticker posted:That's clearly Jackie Chun in the Nam sequence. Aw poo poo, mixed them up again. I keep having to remind myself, Chun is the one who smells good.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:24
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Xibanya posted:Aw poo poo, mixed them up again. I keep having to remind myself, Chun is the one who smells good. You can tell because Roshi is bald and has a staff. Completely different character design.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:32
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Potsticker posted:You can tell because Roshi is bald and has a staff. Completely different character design. Also, the sunglasses. He's always wearing those.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:42
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Bit more Dragonball watching (Baba tournament). Something I'm really starting to realize about this: as much as we might lament the decrease in the slapstick, the fadeout of old side characters, funny animal dudes, etc one thing I have decided I am totally cool with Toriyama forgetting about is Launch because Launch loving suuuuucks Also: that makes considerably more sense... In a certain sense, than Krillin needing a can of tomato soup from Roshi I guess.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:44
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Rodyle posted:Bit more Dragonball watching (Baba tournament). Yeah Lunch had some interesting potential but Toriyama clearly introduced her in order to set up future stories that he later decided he didn't want to do. I remember being super disappointed late Red Ribbon arc when she decided she wasn't interested in murdering everyone anymore. The moment Lunch stopped being a homicidal maniac was the moment she ceased to serve any function in the story. Her previous function was to provide a humorous reversal of expectations. Roshi is a predator, but at any moment his prey could turn predator herself. I don't find it funny at all due to personal experiences, but I at least understand the intent and function of it. Non-muderous Lunch is pointless.
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Apr 30, 2015 03:59
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Once again Xibanya thanks for the effort posts. I tried to make one earlier, but it's a lot harder than it seems to write down my thoughts in a coherent manner, especially when I'm busy with plenty of other stuff to do like work. I'll get around to making that post some time. Oh yeah, are you interested in looking into a bad comic series for research? I happen to know a series that has quite the... colorful history and some... unforgettable artwork.
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Apr 30, 2015 05:55
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Mraagvpeine posted:Once again Xibanya thanks for the effort posts. I tried to make one earlier, but it's a lot harder than it seems to write down my thoughts in a coherent manner, especially when I'm busy with plenty of other stuff to do like work. I'll get around to making that post some time. You're very welcome. I'm pretty stoked that people like listening to my opinions on Dragonball because I think I've talked my boyfriend's ear off about it to the point that he don't wanna hear about it no more and I'm scared to let anyone else IRL find out that I might watch...the animes...  Mraagvpeine posted:Oh yeah, are you interested in looking into a bad comic series for research? I happen to know a series that has quite the... colorful history and some... unforgettable artwork. Yeeeesssss. Spill the beans yo. I'm currently working in some shittastic Wolverine Max into the next part of my effortpost series but I'd love some other stuff too. It's surprisingly tedious to verify the actual badness of comics by researching the whims of The Internet. I ended up deciding to drop by the local library so that I could leaf through lovely comics there without having to torrent individual issues of whatever people say is the crap du jour (I don't wanna do Greg Land, that's too easy.) By the way, while I was at the library, I discovered that there is a cool person in the Austin Public Library's purchasing system, because they had Jaco the Galactic Patrolman! I checked it out along with the rest of the poo poo comics (I was embarrassed as hell being seen walking out with all that poo poo, I tells ya) and it was a delightful read except...  Gawd look at that tangent line! How could you DO this to me??? Toriyamaaaaaaa!!!! 
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Apr 30, 2015 06:23
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Xibanya posted:Yeeeesssss. Spill the beans yo. I'm currently working in some shittastic Wolverine Max into the next part of my effortpost series but I'd love some other stuff too. It's surprisingly tedious to verify the actual badness of comics by researching the whims of The Internet. I ended up deciding to drop by the local library so that I could leaf through lovely comics there without having to torrent individual issues of whatever people say is the crap du jour (I don't wanna do Greg Land, that's too easy.) To quote what someone once said: "Ohhhh you asked for it all right." First, some history and artwork. (I think you should be able to see it without archives) Oh, and special mention for the "Destiny" pages. Second, at look at the artist's more recent work. Warning:   Enjoy.
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Apr 30, 2015 06:43
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E: bad bad drunkposting of things I don't mean.
Xibanya fucked around with this message at 07:03 on May 5, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 07:12
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What a strange fetish to develop, but given what I've seen over the years (thanks Something Awful's E/N) it's just in my "bizarre" corner instead of "disgusting perv". A guy collecting his own poop in gymsocks in a bag takes the cake for me, but some people have experienced even worse poo poo. (literally) In more on topic discussions, I found this particular part of the Toriyama interview interesting: Akira Toriyama posted:What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result. And then I recall the very last page of the whole manga, where he flies off with Uub. Even in the anime, this scene seems discordant. Nearly a bit chilling. The idea that Goku might not be such a good person as we've come to expect came through that scene more clearly to me than most others.
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Apr 30, 2015 07:52
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That Toriyama quote is interesting. But I don't think it's fair to say that Goku is some kind of sociopath or something. I think Toriyama is saying that Goku might not be "such a good guy" only in comparison to, like, Superman or something. Superman is utterly selfless (or so I've been lead to believe; I never got into superhero comics). Goku is pretty selfish but he's kind-hearted and good-natured. He cares about people and has a sense of right and wrong. That good-naturedness coupled with his admittedly selfish desire to always become stronger is what makes him a hero, albeit an imperfect one.
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Apr 30, 2015 11:51
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Goku's imperfections make for a better character. 
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Apr 30, 2015 12:37
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You know, thinking of the repeated Zenkai thing that keeps coming up, it occurs to me that someone DID do that. Goku. On the trip to Namek he's practicing both is Ki control and resiliency by making blasts, spinning them around the center console, and then blowing himself up. He then crawls over and munches on a sensu bean while thinking that he should probably hold back some, he almost didn't survive that one. The narration chips in that he has done this several times now, and has been getting power boosts as a result.
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Apr 30, 2015 13:27
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Xibanya posted:You've been sitting on that comeback for almost a hundred pages now. Nice. wtf
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Apr 30, 2015 14:50
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Xibanya's posts flip flop from very informative to loving weird in a drop of a hat
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Apr 30, 2015 14:52
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Brony Hunter posted:Xibanya's posts flip flop from very informative to loving weird in a drop of a hat Some say there's a fine line between genius and insanity.
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Apr 30, 2015 14:59
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Xibanya posted:You've been sitting on that comeback for almost a hundred pages now. Nice. You seem oddly excited about your boyfriend being into (Both literally and figuratively) other women's underwear. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
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Apr 30, 2015 16:07
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Hey Dragonball thread, what's happ- So how about that Nappa guy?
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Apr 30, 2015 16:24
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Thyrork posted:Goku's imperfections make for a better character.  Blue Star posted:That Toriyama quote is interesting. But I don't think it's fair to say that Goku is some kind of sociopath or something. I think Toriyama is saying that Goku might not be "such a good guy" only in comparison to, like, Superman or something. Superman is utterly selfless (or so I've been lead to believe; I never got into superhero comics). Goku is pretty selfish but he's kind-hearted and good-natured. He cares about people and has a sense of right and wrong. That good-naturedness coupled with his admittedly selfish desire to always become stronger is what makes him a hero, albeit an imperfect one. E: I don't like Broly because he's barely got a personality and his power gains move at the speed of plot. He is my least favorite movie bad guy, even if there are worse movies. Xibanya fucked around with this message at 07:02 on May 5, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 16:26
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Drowning Rabbit posted:I liked DBM's explanation where he is the "Legendary" SS because he constantly gains power without training. Just via existing, he's getting stronger. I've always liked that, too. He does keep yelling about being stronger and stronger during the first movie. Who the gently caress knows what happened when Gohan was able to beast him solo in the second movie, though, unless Broly had de-powered a bit in the interim.. I can't imagine Gohan was any stronger then than the first time they fought, and he certainly didn't have a numbers advantage.
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Apr 30, 2015 16:27
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New Leaf posted:I've always liked that, too. He does keep yelling about being stronger and stronger during the first movie. Who the gently caress knows what happened when Gohan was able to beast him solo in the second movie, though, unless Broly had de-powered a bit in the interim.. I can't imagine Gohan was any stronger then than the first time they fought, and he certainly didn't have a numbers advantage. I thought Gohan was only SS1 in the first movie and had SS2 in the second?
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Apr 30, 2015 16:50
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ChronoReverse posted:I thought Gohan was only SS1 in the first movie and had SS2 in the second? He was that brand of SS where he hadn't really fought anyone since Cell. (Or Bojack.. whatever.) Regardless, Broly beat the gently caress out of 5 very powerful individuals before, I can't imagine SS1-SS2 is THAT big of a jump. Of course, that is one of my DBZ issues- numbers should be just as important as sheer power. Just like in Dungeons & Dragons level scaling, even if you're level 10, a group of level 4's are going to be a threat.
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Apr 30, 2015 17:21
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New Leaf posted:I can't imagine SS1-SS2 is THAT big of a jump What? SS1 to SS2 really is THAT big of a jump. We had those Cell Jr's who were beating up all of the remaining Z-fighters getting completely wiped out effortlessly by Gohan remember? And a Perfect Cell who could take on every other Z-fighter by himself completely punked by SS2 Gohan as well. The jump is enormous.
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Apr 30, 2015 17:23
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New Leaf posted:Of course, that is one of my DBZ issues- numbers should be just as important as sheer power. Just like in Dungeons & Dragons level scaling, even if you're level 10, a group of level 4's are going to be a threat. Dragonball is, on top of everything else, a wuxia kung fu story. if you are an ultra badass, it doesn't really matter how many scrubs fight you. It's a part of the entire idea.
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Apr 30, 2015 17:45
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Prison Warden posted:Dragonball is, on top of everything else, a wuxia kung fu story. if you are an ultra badass, it doesn't really matter how many scrubs fight you. It's a part of the entire idea. Meh, I know. That's just one if the things I'd like to see change in the new series. But it won't.
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Apr 30, 2015 17:50
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Xibanya posted:You've been sitting on that comeback for almost a hundred pages now. Nice. 
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Apr 30, 2015 18:03
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Xibanya posted:You've been sitting on that comeback for almost a hundred pages now. Nice. well thanks for telling us you loving weirdo
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Apr 30, 2015 18:08
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Xibanya posted:Sorry about the poorly communicated sarcasm in my ill-conceived angry late-night drunkposting. Ah, well, okay. I hope everything turns out alright. I always thought the idea behind Broly was fine (A guy being hilariously angry because of something Goku did as a child), but the execution was always kind of weird. Maybe Broly would have worked better if he had actually met Goku as a child during the Dragon Ball era or something, and then could actually have some kind of personal grudge as a result based on Goku's personality, and not just him crying a lot as a baby. Anyone could cry a lot as a baby; Broly's hatred of KKKAAAAKKKKAAAARRRROOOOOTTTTTT should be based on something more specific to Goku's character IMO. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 18:14
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Goku not being particularly heroic is brought up quite a bit in different media, which I always found interesting because he's clearly got some serious hero moments even in Toriyama-written things (Battle of Gods' "I WILL NOT LET YOU DESTROY MY WOOOORRRRLLLLDDD!!!", for instance (that line was awesomely shouted)). Budokai 3, I think, at the end of Goku's story mode outright says that Goku's motives for taking Uub are selfish, he just wants stronger and stronger people to fight. Battle of Gods has Roshi outright question Goku's purity of heart considering how much of a love for fighting he has (this was changed in the dub to just questioning Goku's intelligence, which is lame) I think part of why Goku comes across as heroic despite his serious enjoyment of battle and somewhat stupid/unkind/selfish moments is because Dragon Ball as a whole is very optimistic. Gon from Hunter x Hunter is literally "what if Kid Goku was in a far more cynical world", and he has moments where he comes across as outright creepy despite being more or less the same character. Hell, even his Super Saiyan transformation is shown in a far, far less nice light than Goku's insanely heroic, if revenge-driven, first transformation. And this is counting how Super Saiyan Goku was far less nice than normal Goku. I mean, this is a series where literally the devil gets redeemed and turns into a super nice, if aloof individual who ends up being the best dad. The Demon King gets sent to Heaven and ends up as a sickeningly sweet individual. The prince of a race of genocidal, world-conquering monsters becomes a grumpy dad who is willing to throw away his excessive pride to protect his new planet. And so on and so forth. It's a strength of the series, in my opinion.
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Apr 30, 2015 18:43
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Goku can be heroic but his core problem is that he will put a good fight above what needs to be done until something goes really wrong. He likes fighting to the point it gets in the way of his heroism. If he had a choice between stopping a strong opponent before he was a threat or fighting that opponent even at greater risk, he'd take the second every day of the week.
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Apr 30, 2015 18:48
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Blaze Dragon posted:Goku not being particularly heroic is brought up quite a bit in different media, which I always found interesting because he's clearly got some serious hero moments even in Toriyama-written things (Battle of Gods' "I WILL NOT LET YOU DESTROY MY WOOOORRRRLLLLDDD!!!", for instance (that line was awesomely shouted)). Budokai 3, I think, at the end of Goku's story mode outright says that Goku's motives for taking Uub are selfish, he just wants stronger and stronger people to fight. Battle of Gods has Roshi outright question Goku's purity of heart considering how much of a love for fighting he has (this was changed in the dub to just questioning Goku's intelligence, which is lame) I think the heroic part of Goku comes in having all that unfathomable power and only using his strength to protect, not to wreak havoc and conquer.
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Apr 30, 2015 18:48
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ImpAtom posted:Goku can be heroic but his core problem is that he will put a good fight above what needs to be done until something goes really wrong. He likes fighting to the point it gets in the way of his heroism. If he had a choice between stopping a strong opponent before he was a threat or fighting that opponent even at greater risk, he'd take the second every day of the week. This exact thing gets him killed in the Android saga. Bulma wants to just track down Gero's lab and nuke it from orbit as soon as but nope.
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Apr 30, 2015 18:56
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ImpAtom posted:Goku can be heroic but his core problem is that he will put a good fight above what needs to be done until something goes really wrong. He likes fighting to the point it gets in the way of his heroism. If he had a choice between stopping a strong opponent before he was a threat or fighting that opponent even at greater risk, he'd take the second every day of the week. thats pretty much all saiyans Vegeta did it, Gohan did it, Young trunks/Goten did it, Gotenks definitel does it
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Apr 30, 2015 19:00
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