Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

hobotrashcanfires: Jul 24, 2013

^^^ Yeah, pretty much that.

Anora posted:

That is part of the constitution. It's the 8th amendment to the constitution. If they have a problem with that, then they can't call themselves constitutionalists.

Sure, some genuinely care..but a whole lot only care depending on the party affiliation of who's in power. But hell, it'd be great if anyone could make a case out of it.

# ? May 1, 2015 03:48

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# ? May 31, 2024 00:49

AbbadonOfHell: Jul 16, 2004; You know I would try to think of something funny to put here but ill just pass on that and threaten people with a + 2 board with a nail in it.

Samurai Sanders posted:

In just a few months, my father has completely turned around on this. He always CLAIMED that he was suspicious of the police. In fact, he was the one who gave me the "don't talk to the police, don't let them into your home, don't let them do ANYTHING unless they have the legal responsibility to" talk when I was about fifteen, but from many conversations with him more recently it was clear that deep inside, he was giving them the benefit of the doubt because it's a tough job, they're just people too, and all that stuff. Not anymore. Yesterday he related to me a story of years ago how someone he had just met was talking to him about this and he called him a looney, and they parted badly. Now he's trying to look him up to apologize to him.

People can change.

My dad is similar, except I think he pretty much trusted the cops. Not so much anymore after the Freddy Gray and SC things, he pretty much compared the cops to Judge Dredd in the fact that they think they are Judge, Jury and Executioner and how that's kinda bullshit. (He didn't actually say Judge Dredd, but that was where my mind went.)

That coming from a life-long republican is kinda surprising to me.

# ? May 1, 2015 03:58

Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

AbbadonOfHell posted:

My dad is similar, except I think he pretty much trusted the cops. Not so much anymore after the Freddy Gray and SC things, he pretty much compared the cops to Judge Dredd in the fact that they think they are Judge, Jury and Executioner and how that's kinda bullshit. (He didn't actually say Judge Dredd, but that was where my mind went.)

That coming from a life-long republican is kda surprising to me.

15 years in the iso-cubes would actually be a step up from where we are right now

# ? May 1, 2015 04:00

blunt for century: Jul 4, 2008; I've got a bone to pick.

AbbadonOfHell posted:

My dad is similar, except I think he pretty much trusted the cops. Not so much anymore after the Freddy Gray and SC things, he pretty much compared the cops to Judge Dredd in the fact that they think they are Judge, Jury and Executioner and how that's kinda bullshit. (He didn't actually say Judge Dredd, but that was where my mind went.)

That coming from a life-long republican is kinda surprising to me.

My grandpa is super racist and super republican, though he hasn't voted since ~1950, and even he said that the way Michael Brown was killed was really suspicious and should be looked into more, and that Trayvon Martin was "proper murdered"

I was surprised to find that I actually agreed with him politically for the first time.

# ? May 1, 2015 04:31

Ralepozozaxe: Sep 6, 2010; A Veritable Smorgasbord!

STAC Goat posted:

I saw Neil Cavuto tell a NYPD cop that "some people thing its unlikely that someone could break his own spine" and the cop calmly answered "Its actually very common."

Then I got a little more terrified about living in NYC.

If it works in this case I bet self-spine breakage will become even more common.

# ? May 1, 2015 04:33

AbbadonOfHell: Jul 16, 2004; You know I would try to think of something funny to put here but ill just pass on that and threaten people with a + 2 board with a nail in it.

blunt for century posted:

My grandpa is super racist and super republican, though he hasn't voted since ~1950, and even he said that the way Michael Brown was killed was really suspicious and should be looked into more, and that Trayvon Martin was "proper murdered"

I was surprised to find that I actually agreed with him politically for the first time.

I think it's cause a lot of the old guard republicans aren't as authoritarian to some degree.

# ? May 1, 2015 04:37

Rocko Bonaparte: Mar 12, 2002; Every day is Friday!

Lemming posted:

The body cam thing is real good, nice work SC.

There is an escape clause for detectives. What is the chance SC gets a bunch of "detective departments?"

# ? May 1, 2015 04:46

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

Now that I think about it, for people who listen to suspects try to keep their stories straight every day, the police are a lot worse at doing it themselves than they should be.

# ? May 1, 2015 05:50

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Samurai Sanders posted:

Now that I think about it, for people who listen to suspects try to keep their stories straight every day, the police are a lot worse at doing it themselves than they should be.

Power blindness. They don't think they have to be convincing, just sufficiently brazen.

# ? May 1, 2015 05:53

AbbadonOfHell: Jul 16, 2004; You know I would try to think of something funny to put here but ill just pass on that and threaten people with a + 2 board with a nail in it.

Samurai Sanders posted:

Now that I think about it, for people who listen to suspects try to keep their stories straight every day, the police are a lot worse at doing it themselves than they should be.

Thing with that is they don't have to, the law and order types will take their word no matter what it is for the most part.

# ? May 1, 2015 05:54

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

blunt for century posted:

My grandpa is super racist and super republican, though he hasn't voted since ~1950, and even he said that the way Michael Brown was killed was really suspicious and should be looked into more, and that Trayvon Martin was "proper murdered"

I was surprised to find that I actually agreed with him politically for the first time.

Because back then even white people had to fear crossing the police and getting a boot party if they weren't a member of the Klan or the local Masons, especially in country areas. If you weren't wealthy, protestant, and white then you ran the risk of being brutalized just as easily for the crime of being Irish, Italian, gay, Catholic, etc.

# ? May 1, 2015 06:38

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

pentyne posted:

Because back then even white people had to fear crossing the police and getting a boot party if they weren't a member of the Klan or the local Masons, especially in country areas. If you weren't wealthy, protestant, and white then you ran the risk of being brutalized just as easily for the crime of being Irish, Italian, gay, Catholic, etc.

My dad is a WASP through and through and he still told me that when he was a kid, the police didn't enforce the law as such; their job was just to find people who were in places and doing things they didn't like, and whack them over the head and tell them to go home. I guess what led to the situation I described earlier is that he thought the civil rights movement fixed that.

# ? May 1, 2015 06:49

AtraMorS: Feb 29, 2004; If at the end of a war story you feel that some tiny bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Maybe White people in the South just don't appreciate the boys in blue as much as their Northern cousins.

It's not like Boss Hogg is any Southerner's role model. White Southerners have an anti-authoritarian* streak a mile wide, and it doesn't stop at the federal level. The people are still crazy down here, don't get me wrong, but we're kinda known for shooting off at authority figures.

*I mean this in the conventional sense, not in the more specialized way it's been talked about in the other D&D thread.

# ? May 1, 2015 07:12

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

Also for good or bad, no one has ever given two shits about public workers here.

# ? May 1, 2015 07:16

Dead Gay Romans: Mar 19, 2015; Pitbull enthusiast

Public opinion does seem to be shifting a lot on the police. I know two friends and three relatives that have gone from benefit of doubt law and order types, to being very wary of the police and critical of their actions. All middle to upper-middle class white people.

Vibe I get from all of them is the video of the guy being choked to death for no reason in NY was the real breaking point.

It may not seem like it all together yet, but I really think a poo poo-ton of people were on the fence about police trustworthiness and the need for reform, but they never went looking for the evidence they needed to see...now that they can't avoid it, well, they change their minds.

Edit: Actually checked my old e-mails, the one guy, an uncle, actually cited the guy who was shot in Wal-Mart with the BB gun and no warning was the tipping point for him.

Dead Gay Romans fucked around with this message at 07:33 on May 1, 2015

# ? May 1, 2015 07:31

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

In a certain way it is ironic since police today are miles better and more professional than they ever were.

# ? May 1, 2015 07:37

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

Vahakyla posted:

In a certain way it is ironic since police today are miles better and more professional than they ever were.

I guess back when they were all this bad, it was harder to notice individual cases of it being bad. Also, though it is apparently still questionable whether black lives matter, I guess that's better than solid agreement that they don't like when my dad was a kid.

Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 08:29 on May 1, 2015

# ? May 1, 2015 07:39

Dead Gay Romans: Mar 19, 2015; Pitbull enthusiast

Vahakyla posted:

In a certain way it is ironic since police today are miles better and more professional than they ever were.

Absolutely. but then again back then the "people that mattered" could ignore that poo poo if they wanted. It wasn't going to be in the papers or on TV if we jump forward. Also attitudes were "different" meaning worse.

Kind of hard to ignore or just plain not notice things now when the video (which would not have existed at all for most of policing history) is on three 24 hour cable news networks, nightly news, all your friends facebooks, e-mail.

Technology is a tremendous catalyst for social change (or at least awareness) in a way I don't think any of us have a handle on yet.

Also, i suppose, as we become more "civilized" and comfortable, things like a riot tend to stick out more now then they would in the past. Maybe.

Dead Gay Romans fucked around with this message at 07:55 on May 1, 2015

# ? May 1, 2015 07:52

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

The officer who chased Gray down apparently had his guns taken away and spent some time chilling out at a mental ward a few years back.

quote:

The top Baltimore city police officer suspended following Freddie Gray's death was hospitalized in April 2012 following concerns about his mental health, according to records from a sheriff's department and court obtained by The Associated Press.

Worries about Lt. Brian Rice's stability � originally raised by a fellow Baltimore police officer who is the mother of his child � led deputies to confiscate his guns and contact high-ranking police officials, the report says.

Rice, who initially pursued Gray on a Baltimore street when Gray fled after Rice made eye contact April 12, declared three years ago that he "could not continue to go on like this" and threatened to commit an act that was censored in the public version of a report obtained by the AP from the Carroll County, Maryland, Sheriff's Office. Rice lived in the county, about 35 miles northwest of Baltimore.

Deputies reported that Rice appeared "normal and soft spoken" and said he had been seeking "sympathy and attention." But citing "credible information," the deputies confiscated both his official and personal guns, called his commanding officer and transported Rice to the Carroll Hospital Center. The weapons included his .40-caliber police pistol, a 9 mm handgun, an AK-47-style rifle, a .22-caliber rifle and two shotguns.

# ? May 1, 2015 09:04

discoukulele: Jan 16, 2010; Yes Sir, I Can Boogie

PostNouveau posted:

The officer who chased Gray down apparently had his guns taken away and spent some time chilling out at a mental ward a few years back.

quote:

But Rice was accused in June 2012 of removing a semi-automatic handgun from the trunk of his personal vehicle and threatening McAleer [fellow officer, mother of his son], according to a complaint filed in 2013. A police report about that June 2012 incident omitted any reference to allegations that Rice brandished a weapon but noted that officers who responded spent hours searching for Rice over concerns for his welfare.

Wow.

# ? May 1, 2015 10:15

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Cichlid the Loach posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/30/baltimore-police-van-freddie-gray-stop

God loving dammit. What are the chances the thief will realize what they have? (Or that the police will release the footage.)

Or what's the chances the police are the thieves knowing that it has incriminating evidence.

PostNouveau posted:

The officer who chased Gray down apparently had his guns taken away and spent some time chilling out at a mental ward a few years back.

And police and retired cops are exempt from Maryland's gun laws because they're more psychological-prepared than army veterans?! :psyduck:

# ? May 1, 2015 10:48

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/man-who-recorded-freddie-grays-arrest-taken-into-custody-after-complaining-of-police-harassment/

quote:

Man who recorded Freddie Gray�s arrest taken into custody after complaining of police harassment

The man who recorded video of Freddie Gray�s arrest was arrested at gunpoint along with two activists, days after complaining of police �harassment and intimidation.�

Kevin Moore and two members of CopWatch, an activist group that records police actions, were taken into custody Thursday night, reported PINAC News.

Moore filmed one of two videos showing police drag Gray screaming into a police van, where the 25-year-old suffered a fatal spine injury.

A woman who also filmed video of the fatal arrest has been reluctant to speak publicly, but Moore has talked with reporters about what he had seen.

He said Tuesday in a Facebook post that police had circulated his photo and announced that he was �wanted for questioning� � which Moore believes was an attempt to intimidate him into silence.

�OK y�all everyone by now know that I spoke up for Freddie and recorded all I could,� Moore posted on social media. �But I would greatly appreciate if y�all could stop posting pics of me plz it�s very uncomfortable knowing that the law is looking for me!! Thank y�all.�

He was riding in a car late Thursday that was stopped for an illegal turn, and Moore said two police helicopters and an armored car were involved in the traffic stop.

He said a police SUV began following their vehicle after he made eye contact with an officer while still wearing a Guy Fawkes mask he had worn at a demonstration.

Moore said he did not have identification, but he said police recognized his name, and he and the two out-of-state activists were placed in handcuffs and taken to jail.

He was released without explanation about two hours later, but the two CopWatch activists � Chad Jackson and Tony White � remain jailed on unspecified charges.

He compared police actions to those taken by New York City police against Ramsey Orta, who recorded officers putting Eric Garner in a chokehold that resulted in the 43-year-old Staten Island man�s death.

Orta was jailed for two months on unrelated drug and weapons charges, and he went on a hunger strike over fears that corrections officers would poison his food in retaliation for the recording.
...

# ? May 1, 2015 14:49

actionjackson: Jan 12, 2003

They just announced they will be prosecuting the cops for homicide

# ? May 1, 2015 15:47

FuriousxGeorge: Aug 8, 2007; We've been the best team all year.

They're just finding out.

The knife was legal and there was no PC for arrest. Arrested and killed for legally bearing arms. NRA/2nd Amendment nuts, come join the protests!

# ? May 1, 2015 15:51

hallebarrysoetoro: Jun 14, 2003

Charges, lots and lots of charges. Illegal arrest on top of that. I know that's the least of the bad of a guy loving dying, but at the same time that's an important step forward to other people.

# ? May 1, 2015 15:55

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

I'm holding my breath for the actual trial. These guys end up getting charged but then let off despite video evidence.

# ? May 1, 2015 15:57

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

actionjackson posted:

They just announced they will be prosecuting the cops for homicide

"murder in the 2nd, manslaughter, willful negligence, assault, misconduct charges."

:drat:

e: all six officers charged

# ? May 1, 2015 15:58

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

I've maintained throughout that it really seemed like Baltimore PD was taking this really, really seriously and it sure looks that way now.

e: Too bad they didn't give a poo poo before he died

# ? May 1, 2015 15:58

Agrajag: Jan 21, 2006; gat dang thats hot

actionjackson posted:

They just announced they will be prosecuting the cops for homicide

Not seeing anything on CNN.

edit: nvm

# ? May 1, 2015 15:59

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Vahakyla posted:

In a certain way it is ironic since police today are miles better and more professional than they ever were.

This may be true overall, but it is not true in places like Baltimore where the police force was gutted and skilled and dedicated policemen were only relatively recently forced out for political reasons in the name of making things look good on paper.

I doubt it's the only police where policing has gotten worse rather than better... although to be fair, it doesn't seem like it was ever particularly good.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:00

Rhesus Pieces: Jun 27, 2005

They were charged with "depraved-heart murder," which is a term I had never heard until now but fits the bill:

Wikipedia posted:

Depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is an American legal term for an action that demonstrates a "callous disregard for human life" and results in death. In most states, depraved-heart killings constitute second-degree murder.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:00

Agrajag: Jan 21, 2006; gat dang thats hot

Lets hope this doesn't turn out to be like The Trayvon Martin trial.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:02

STAC Goat: Mar 12, 2008; Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

I'm watching the press conference on CNN so that's odd that you aren't.

From what I thought I heard the driver is being charged with murder, the cops who denied him medical treatment are being charged with manslaughter, and the cops who arrested him are being charged with assault and unlawful arrest. Plus a whole ton of lesser charges.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:03

My Rhythmic Crotch: Jan 13, 2011

Can someone link to details of the charges? I'm not finding any good articles.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:03

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Agrajag posted:

Lets hope this doesn't turn out to be like The Trayvon Martin trial.

Glad they seem to be going with an appropriate charges, unlike the last case that got thrown out because intentionally shooting at people can't be considered manslaughter, only murder, and manslaughter was all they charged him with.

GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 16:20 on May 1, 2015

# ? May 1, 2015 16:03

Agrajag: Jan 21, 2006; gat dang thats hot

Now I want to hear from the poster earlier talking about how Freddie Gray had some illegal switch blade thus justifying his arrest.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:05

FuriousxGeorge: Aug 8, 2007; We've been the best team all year.

They're just finding out.

My Rhythmic Crotch posted:

Can someone link to details of the charges? I'm not finding any good articles.

Literally just announced, give it a few more minutes.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:05

TGLT: Aug 14, 2009

Given how the police have tried to manipulate testimony and perceptions in their favor I have to wonder if this is going to actually lead to changes for the Baltimore police department as a whole, or if they're just going to write them off as bad apples and roll on. I mean, their cover story has collapsed so fast and so publicly that they really can't dodge at least the charges, but I'm still not sure if anything actually changes because of it. It's not the first time they killed a guy like this.

My Rhythmic Crotch posted:

Can someone link to details of the charges? I'm not finding any good articles.

Here's an NPR article with some details about the charges and why they went with them.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:05

STAC Goat: Mar 12, 2008; Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

GlyphGryph posted:

Glad they seem to be going with an appropriate charge, unlike the last case that got thrown out because intentionally shooting at people can't be considered manslaughter, only murder.

I know nothing about legal matters but I assume that the litany of charges increases the odds that they all get found guilty of something. Like the driver was charged with second degree murder but he was also charged with like half a dozen other crimes so even if he somehow gets off on the murder he can get nailed on the other stuff.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:05

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# ? May 31, 2024 00:49

Grey Fox: Jan 5, 2004

Given how comprehensive the charges appear to be at first glance and the number of officers being charged, I'm suddenly very worried for the state attorney's safety, both in the immediate future and long term.

# ? May 1, 2015 16:08

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