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The thing that muddies up the issue is that America has a raging boner for individual personal freedom even so far as it directly harms others. This is especially true if you're wealthy and white. It doesn't matter at all what you did; we gave a rich white kid a pass on getting ragingly drunk and killing four people in a crash because he was rich and that made him unable to understand his actions have consequences because reasons. Arguing about what the law means in America is kind of dumb. Wealthy white Christian people do whatever the gently caress they want and twist the law to mean whatever they feel like it means. This is how you end up with entire communities where the vaccination rate is like 30%. Some wealthy people decided that they should be allowed to spread anti-vax misinformation so now it's perfectly OK to do so. That's kind of what it all boils down to; some people with wealth and influence decided they didn't feel like using vaccination anymore so they twisted everything until it suddenly became OK.
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May 1, 2015 02:08
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ToxicSlurpee posted:An ounce of prevention equals a pound of cure, as they say. Clearly, we also don't need fire codes anymore because who dies in fires anymore?
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May 1, 2015 02:21
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Lote posted:Clearly, we also don't need fire codes anymore because who dies in fires anymore?
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May 1, 2015 02:32
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Solkanar512 posted:So on a related note, what happens in cases where one parent wants to vaccinate and the other doesn't, assuming both parents have some form of custody? Would the pro-vaxxer parent get in trouble for getting the kids vaccinated against the wishes of the anti-vaxxer parent? Pretty sure there was a court case about this very recently, where the judge ruled in favour of the pro-vax parent. Canada maybe? Edit: http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/girl-must-be-given-measles-vaccine-before-trip-to-europe-judge-rules-1.2321539 posted:A 10-year-old Kitchener girl must receive the measles vaccine before travelling to Germany, a judge has ruled. JBark fucked around with this message at 02:58 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 02:54
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In vaccine news, Rubella has finally been officially eliminated in the Americas as there have been no endemic cases in five years, and Europe/North Asia is expected to follow soon. gently caress you anti-vaxxers, we're killing diseases with or without you.
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May 1, 2015 04:51
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:In vaccine news, Rubella has finally been officially eliminated in the Americas as there have been no endemic cases in five years, and Europe/North Asia is expected to follow soon. gently caress you anti-vaxxers, we're killing diseases with or without you. Think about all those pregnant mothers who have been denied the chance to impart some natural immunity on their unborn children. It's a senseless waste of good virus.
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May 1, 2015 16:14
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That specific article doesn't mention it, but birth complications caused by women getting rubella when pregnant are ironically one of the few known causes of autism.
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May 1, 2015 16:40
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il serpente cosmico posted:Parents who try to heal their children through prayer and then have their children die are often prosecuted for manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. Will this happen when an anti-vaxxer has a child that dies of a vaccine-preventable disease? At least the heal-through-prayer people have a flimsy freedom of religion defense. Anti-vaxxers have nothing. Preventive care is totally different from reactive care. If parents refused to bring their dying-of-whooping-cough child to the hospital even when their condition was clearly life-threatening, they would be open to prosecution, but there isn't much precedent for charging someone for failing to give a preventive medical procedure to a perfectly healthy child who was not particularly at-risk, especially when relevant local laws about medical care grant parents the option to use specific, explicit exceptions to not give that procedure.
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May 1, 2015 20:19
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Main Paineframe posted:Preventive care is totally different from reactive care. If parents refused to bring their dying-of-whooping-cough child to the hospital even when their condition was clearly life-threatening, they would be open to prosecution, but there isn't much precedent for charging someone for failing to give a preventive medical procedure to a perfectly healthy child who was not particularly at-risk, especially when relevant local laws about medical care grant parents the option to use specific, explicit exceptions to not give that procedure. What if an epidemic actually happens among the local unvaccinated population, and they opt to still not get a vaccine despite the clear and present risk of infection? Or those disease party things...
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May 1, 2015 20:20
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GlyphGryph posted:What if an epidemic actually happens among the local unvaccinated population, and they opt to still not get a vaccine despite the clear and present risk of infection? Or those disease party things... If an epidemic is literally going on right now, getting vaccinated is unlikely to meaningfully protect you - vaccines take several weeks to provide effective immunity, and you can still catch the nornal form of the disease and get sick in the meantime. As far as I know, no one's holding "whooping cough parties" or parties for other seriously high-risk diseases. Measles parties are unlikely to be prosecutable, partly because the people holding them believe that measles is harmless (which is a widely held belief), partly because the chance of complications from any single case of measles is actually pretty low (which is why so many people think measles is totally harmless), and partly because measles is so immensely and notoriously contagious that it can't be said with any certainty that the child would not have caught the disease if they didn't go to the party.
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May 1, 2015 21:07
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Main Paineframe posted:If an epidemic is literally going on right now, getting vaccinated is unlikely to meaningfully protect you - vaccines take several weeks to provide effective immunity, and you can still catch the nornal form of the disease and get sick in the meantime. The other issue is that the reason that measles gets vaccinated against is because it murders the poo poo out of babies. Once you become a toddler it can't accomplish much but before then it's a nasty, nasty death-causing disease. This is also part of why the anti-vaxxers fail to see the big deal. They probably saw a bunch of unvaccinated children get measles then not suffer in the long term and think "well what's the big deal?" Kind of like chicken pox; when I was a kid the vaccine just wasn't there so pox parties were a thing and all that. It was desirable to get it as a child or adolescent because it just took you out of commission for a week and then you were just fine. Everybody got it early. I had it as a baby apparently and was sick for like a day then just fine. Once again that's what people are seeing but people fail to see the other sides of it like developing shingles later in life. That and anybody in the family that had chicken pox or was around somebody that had it recently had to be isolated from my one grandmother because she never had it and it can kill you really, really dead if you get it in adulthood. The older you are the more it fucks you up.
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May 2, 2015 18:25
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Who gives a gently caress? If there were a vaccine against the common cold, I'd be all over that poo poo, despite the fact it's more of an inconvenience than a dangerous disease.
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May 2, 2015 18:29
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The other issue is that the reason that measles gets vaccinated against is because it murders the poo poo out of babies. Once you become a toddler it can't accomplish much but before then it's a nasty, nasty death-causing disease. This is also part of why the anti-vaxxers fail to see the big deal. They probably saw a bunch of unvaccinated children get measles then not suffer in the long term and think "well what's the big deal?" Kind of like chicken pox; when I was a kid the vaccine just wasn't there so pox parties were a thing and all that. It was desirable to get it as a child or adolescent because it just took you out of commission for a week and then you were just fine. Everybody got it early. I had it as a baby apparently and was sick for like a day then just fine. Once again that's what people are seeing but people fail to see the other sides of it like developing shingles later in life. That and anybody in the family that had chicken pox or was around somebody that had it recently had to be isolated from my one grandmother because she never had it and it can kill you really, really dead if you get it in adulthood. The older you are the more it fucks you up. Chicken Pox when you're old really loving sucks, I can confirm that. I had it at approximately 22 and it knocked me on my rear end for days. Headaches, loss of appetite, feeling tired all of the time.. Feeling like you're going to puke at any moment... The red spots, despite the itch are probably the least of the worries. Anybody who has to go through that because they haven't had it as a child need to be aware of that. You will require to take days off work too, so thats just twisting the knife.
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May 2, 2015 18:35
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Dalael posted:Chicken Pox when you're old really loving sucks, I can confirm that. I had it at approximately 22 and it knocked me on my rear end for days. Shingles is the older form chicken pox and all the side effects are due to how the virus attacks the nervous system.
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May 2, 2015 18:42
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Dalael posted:Anybody who has to go through that because they haven't had it as a child need to be aware of that. You will require to take days off work too, so thats just twisting the knife. If you haven't had it, go get a vaccination.
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May 2, 2015 18:44
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PT6A posted:If you haven't had it, go get a vaccination. I've had it at 22. Fortunately, my symptoms were mild compared to what it could have been. That is also when I learnt that my parents had been very careless with my vaccination schedule and why I am so pro-vaccine today. That an my cousin dying of meningitus a few years before the vaccine was developped.
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May 2, 2015 18:46
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PT6A posted:Who gives a gently caress? If there were a vaccine against the common cold, I'd be all over that poo poo, despite the fact it's more of an inconvenience than a dangerous disease. Oh I know. I'm definitely a believer that we should use absolutely every safe, functional vaccine that we can because disease is loving awful. That was just so people can at least somewhat understand the thought process of an anti-vaxxer as hard as that can ultimately be.
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May 2, 2015 19:38
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Dalael posted:I've had it at 22. Fortunately, my symptoms were mild compared to what it could have been. There's a vaccine against meningitis? I was under the impression that meningitis was just something that happened as a side effect of a virus/bacteria already kicking your rear end, not it's own thing.
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May 2, 2015 21:57
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Rorac posted:There's a vaccine against meningitis? I was under the impression that meningitis was just something that happened as a side effect of a virus/bacteria already kicking your rear end, not it's own thing. There's a specific variety that it's common for colleges to require a vaccine against for dorm students: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meningococcal_vaccine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neisseria_meningitidis It's also usually what you hear about when there's a meningitis outbreak on the news.
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May 2, 2015 22:01
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Rorac posted:There's a vaccine against meningitis? I was under the impression that meningitis was just something that happened as a side effect of a virus/bacteria already kicking your rear end, not it's own thing. In plenty of cases you are right. Menningitus is often caused by other diseases. An inflammation of the protective membranes covering the brain and spinal cord. Vaccination against other diseases has led to a sharp decline in meningitus. However, vaccines have been developped that is effective in combating meningitus itself, and if I remember well, they were mostly developped at the end of th 70's or early 80's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meningitis#Vaccination For more accurate info.
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May 2, 2015 22:33
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Well, I stand corrected! I had meningitis caused by a virus when was 11 or so, and I wish I'd had the vaccine for it then because it was the most miserable 4 days of my life.
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May 2, 2015 22:55
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Nice piece of fish posted:Only works if it's a legitimate medical condition or disability equaling a non compos mentis condition defence. If we're talking a criminal case. So don't prosecute them; just take unvaccinated children away.
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May 2, 2015 23:14
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Astrofig posted:So don't prosecute them; just take unvaccinated children away. I don't think that's necessary. Just vaccinate their unvaccinated children
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May 3, 2015 00:50
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Rorac posted:Well, I stand corrected! I had meningitis caused by a virus when was 11 or so, and I wish I'd had the vaccine for it then because it was the most miserable 4 days of my life. I had to have the vaccine when I lived in the dorms for my first year of college because some guy died a few years earlier.
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May 3, 2015 05:27
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QuarkJets posted:I don't think that's necessary. Just vaccinate their unvaccinated children I'd rather prevent abusive parents from raising children instead, thanks.
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May 3, 2015 06:33
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Dalael posted:Chicken Pox when you're old really loving sucks, I can confirm that. I had it at approximately 22 and it knocked me on my rear end for days. I had it at 28. I had it as a kid, too, so just my luck to get it twice. I could barely get out of bed and my entire skin, every last inch, was covered in red spots like I'd slept on an ants' nest. Even my goddamn eyelids. I felt like the aftermath of a migraine, that utterly drained, lifeless feeling - that's how bad I was for an entire week.
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May 3, 2015 15:02
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Gorilla Salad posted:I had it at 28. I had it as a kid, too, so just my luck to get it twice. Twice? I feel for you, seriously. But yeah, your symptoms sound about right. And as if the symptoms wasn't bad enough, it seems people like to downplay it by making stupid jokes about being itchy and stupid crap like putting a back scratcher just out of reach. Or is that just me being surrounded by assholes?
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May 3, 2015 15:29
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The Shortest Path posted:I'd rather prevent abusive parents from raising children instead, thanks. Being antivaxx is not the same as being abusive, dumb-dumb.
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May 3, 2015 18:29
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I had chicken pox in my 20's but had maybe a dozen barely itchy bumps and a mild fever. I had no idea what was going on until my teenage sibling and my mother both came down with horrible cases a week after my spots had cleared up. I've always been prone to spotty skin and thought I was having a reaction to something so I didn't make the connection. I went for the vaccination anyway, but I'm sure I'm the one who carried it home and subsequently waited hand and foot on my sick family members! Sorry, family.  The meningitis discussion reminds me of another Back From Nature piece The Unsung Vaccine That Means My Kids Won't Suffer Like I Did. Slightly  pic of a child's swollen-shut eyes if that kind of thing bothers you; HiB sounds utterly miserable to go through, I'm glad there's a vaccine now!
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May 3, 2015 18:46
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QuarkJets posted:Being antivaxx is not the same as being abusive, dumb-dumb. Refusing to give your child essential health care sounds like child abuse to me.
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May 3, 2015 18:51
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VitalSigns posted:Refusing to give your child essential health care sounds like child abuse to me. also subjecting them to unnecessary life threatening illnesses just because you read some facts on natural healing websites.
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May 3, 2015 19:09
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If refusal to provide clothes counts as abuse (and it does) I see no reason that refusal to provide similar protective medicine doesn't.
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May 3, 2015 19:16
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VitalSigns posted:Refusing to give your child essential health care sounds like child abuse to me. You have to be extremely careful when you start diluting terms like this. "Essential health care" for the sake of determining whether or not a child is being abused should only relate to the health of the child. So if a child is unvaccinated and winds up never actually catching a preventable illness, was a vaccination actually essential for the child's health? I would argue not, even while simultaneously arguing that vaccines should be mandatory (with medical exceptions) for the sake of public health. Even if you do stretch the word "abuse" to include antivaccination crazies, the "abuse" ends as soon as the child is vaccinated, so what's the point in permanently taking the child away from parents who are otherwise normal? What does this accomplish?
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May 3, 2015 19:17
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If a child sits in the car without a seatbelt its whole life and never gets in an accident and is thus never injured by its absence, is it child abuse to not make sure it's buckled up before you drive?
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May 3, 2015 19:37
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There is a big difference between child abuse, and not vaccinating. As much as I may dislike anti-vaxxers and their crazy notions, I would not equate it to abuse in any way, shape or form. If we keep expending the definition of words like abuse, we're going to end up with such a loose definition that nearly everyone will be commiting abuse unwittingly. Its like Racism, in which back in the days it had a very clear definition. Now, literally spell checking a person of a different race can cause claims of racism. http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/education-2/this-ucla-professor-called-racist-for-the-horrible-thing-he-did-to-a-black-student http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/california-grad-students-claim-correcting-their-spelling-is-racist/ Next, not buying the favored flavor of cereal to a child will be called a form of abuse. E: Okay, these may not be the most reputable website, but they serve to prove a point. Dalael fucked around with this message at 20:04 on May 3, 2015 |
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May 3, 2015 19:56
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Dalael posted:There is a big difference between child abuse, and not vaccinating. As much as I may dislike anti-vaxxers and their crazy notions, I would not equate it to abuse in any way, shape or form. If we keep expending the definition of words like abuse, we're going to end up with such a loose definition that nearly everyone will be commiting abuse unwittingly. There are different levels of abuse or child endangerment. I suppose neglect is better than beating the poo poo out of child on a regular basis, but I don't think it really needs to be a competition.
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May 3, 2015 20:04
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thespaceinvader posted:If a child sits in the car without a seatbelt its whole life and never gets in an accident and is thus never injured by its absence, is it child abuse to not make sure it's buckled up before you drive? Not wearing a seatbelt in a car is illegal in most places. Not making sure your kids are buckled up is negligently exposing them to a dangerous situation. So, I guess the answer is yes.
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May 3, 2015 20:07
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PT6A posted:There are different levels of abuse or child endangerment. I suppose neglect is better than beating the poo poo out of child on a regular basis, but I don't think it really needs to be a competition. I would say that neglect does constitute child endangerment. If you don't take of care of him, feed him, spend time with him at all, then its abuse. But not vaccinating is a lifestyle choice I guess? ... A stupid choice in my book, but not abuse nonetheless. I just think we have to be very careful when it comes to expending the definition of a word tha has so much power.
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May 3, 2015 20:08
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thespaceinvader posted:If a child sits in the car without a seatbelt its whole life and never gets in an accident and is thus never injured by its absence, is it child abuse to not make sure it's buckled up before you drive? This analogy doesn't really match the situation with antivaxers. It does not really make sense to take away children once they have been vaccinated because at that point the "abuse" has already been taken care of on a semi-permanent basis. To anyone advocating that children of antivaxers should be taken away: Provide an argument as to why it would make more sense to take the children in question away and put them into state custody over simply forcing the parents to vaccinate their children.
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May 3, 2015 20:12
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Have any antivaxx parents of children that died from a vaccine preventable disease been charged with anything? Not abuse per se but anything dealing with negligence?
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May 3, 2015 20:14
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