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Keetron posted:The upside of a Christian school is that they educate broadly on all religions ... Really? Is that a regional thing, because usually they only tech their own religious outlook.
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May 1, 2015 14:37
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Sub Rosa posted:... Really? Is that a regional thing, because usually they only tech their own religious outlook. More of a European thing I guess.
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May 1, 2015 15:39
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Keetron posted:... further thought made me realise that whatever my personal beliefs are, I will leave them out of the worldly education of my kids. This seems bizarre to me. Do you want to raise your kids with someone else's personal beliefs?
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May 1, 2015 16:37
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Really? Born free? Do you really think that's a meaningful way to categorize people in 2015, and even if it is meaningful do you think it's ethical? Seems to me a person cannot control their socio-economic status at birth. Also, profess a belief in God seems odd since many famous American founding fathers, and Masons, were closet atheists or close--see dieism.
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May 2, 2015 02:15
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ZombieLenin posted:Really? Born free? Do you really think that's a meaningful way to categorize people in 2015, and even if it is meaningful do you think it's ethical? Seems to me a person cannot control their socio-economic status at birth. Meaningless within a western nation as we don't have any laws respecting slavery anywhere so regardless of your situation of birth we'd not recognize it as anything but being born free quote:Also, profess a belief in God seems odd since many famous American founding fathers, and Masons, were closet atheists or close--see dieism. Deism is not Atheism at all, nor even close to it. Also there is the Gran Orient de France for a large Masonic body that accepts Atheists ( and women now ). Its a potential point of contention but not one that's going to change in America any time soon. You can profess a belief in 'some kind of spiritual universe life force' as your God and be just fine. Or a Pagan belief system or.. whatever basically.
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May 2, 2015 03:58
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ZombieLenin posted:Really? Born free? Do you really think that's a meaningful way to categorize people in 2015, and even if it is meaningful do you think it's ethical? Seems to me a person cannot control their socio-economic status at birth. We didn't make the rules, and it seems weird to quibble about how things are incongruent with social values in tyool 2015 despite acknowledging that people 300 years ago were Masons. You are right that some of the immutable laws that have defined Masonry since time immemorial are pretty dated. But since they by definition cannot be changed, since the resulting body would not be Masonry, this unfortunately isn't going to result in an outcome you'll find satisfactory.
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May 2, 2015 04:32
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ZombieLenin posted:Really? Born free? Do you really think that's a meaningful way to categorize people in 2015, and even if it is meaningful do you think it's ethical? Seems to me a person cannot control their socio-economic status at birth. Not all Masons are under the jurisdiction of the American grand lodges. My grand lodge couldn't give a poo poo if half the American masons of the 1700s were outright atheists - we're Australian, we were formed under the United Grand Lodge of England, and the peculiarities of American freemasonry are not our problem or our concern. As for the born free thing, times change and it's no longer a concern except in fringe cases, and no grand lodge I know of would refuse a man who was born into child slavery somewhere from becoming a mason as the institutions, principles, and practices of slavery at the time the constitutions were laid out and that particular ancient landmark especially established (in the medieval period, actually, so more 'serfs' than later chattel slavery) are no longer practiced anywhere in the world. For the same reason we readily take cripples like myself, we would accept those born into, and subsequently freed from, slavery. In a point of fact, the UGLE was actually more progressive on the matter of ex-slaves as Masons than the American Lodges were. The first lodge for African men in America was established by the English freemasons, and Prince Hall was a member, and members of the UGLE quietly changed the wording to be free men, not just free-born men. Here in Australia, we likewise refuse only bondsmen, not men born in that state. As masons, we are exhorted to first and foremost act in accordance with our conscience. It being unconscionable to refuse a man of merit entry to the Craft because he was born into slavery, or taken as a slave, the ancient landmark was thus changed in its application, if not in its wording. In this regard, the various co-masonic and atheist-friendly masonic are still acting masonically - simply in a way that we disagree with on our own conscience. Regarding deism, if you think it's close to atheism, you need to read more. That's coming from a Pandeist. Deism necessarily, as its very definition, recognizes the existence of a deity - atheism, by its very definition, does not. Loomer fucked around with this message at 06:13 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 06:10
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There was only one founder who was actually an atheist, and one who probably was (Paine and Jefferson respectively), and neither were Masons. And Deism is actually the opposite of Atheism in the simplest sense. And most of our founders weren't Deists either. E: Also, if someone came in to my lodge who had been a slave, that would not be a problem for me. The rule may say "born free" but it doesn't specify in what sense that is, and to me everyone's born free. We're all free.
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May 2, 2015 13:44
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Deism actually was considered incompatible with Masonry, at least by some, during that time period. Franklin had deist leanings, and according to something that I read that I wish I could find now to cite, stopped going to lodge after a deist was kicked out in Pennsylvania.
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May 2, 2015 14:03
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I should think that a concern regarding the restrictions that a capitalist system might impose on people swinging from it's lowest rungs, would cause someone to WANT to join and express loyalty to a mutual benefit society like Freemasonry. Not be a reason for exclusion. Aside from the collective buying power of the lodge in terms if what's available for dinner, who can you trust in a dog eat dog world if not your brothers? Masons are Men who share oaths of loyalty to each other, oaths that could not apply to someone who's loyalty was already owned, such as a slave or bondsman. A belief in a God and existence after death, assures that we are all headed down the same road, or up the same staircase, as it were.
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May 3, 2015 00:06
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William Blake was a Mason, and the influence of the craft is apparent in his art.
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May 3, 2015 00:11
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Solvent posted:William Blake was a Mason, and the influence of the craft is apparent in his art. Man those stairs are winding as poo poo
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May 3, 2015 01:33
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So, having read a chunk of this thread, I have decided to at least try and become a mason myself. I don't know if they'll have me, of course, but I figure it couldn't hurt to try. Wish me luck, I guess.
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May 6, 2015 02:41
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GlyphGryph posted:So, having read a chunk of this thread, I have decided to at least try and become a mason myself. I don't know if they'll have me, of course, but I figure it couldn't hurt to try. Congratulations on taking the first preparatory step to becoming a mason.
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May 6, 2015 02:59
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When you go, be nice, be sober. If you've got a family, bring them. I'm sure you picked all that out of the thread by now. No  and you should be welcome. When I was secretary, we'd get nutjobs wandering in at least once a month. Our temple is in a bar district.I always made a point to treat all people and their opinions with respect, and I would respectfully have to usher people outside.  "Let's head to the coffee shop across the street." Becoming a Mason has been a real challenge, and one of the best journeys I've ever embarked upon. I wish you the best of luck.
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May 6, 2015 03:10
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It's actually been a while since I read the bulk of the thread - I've been following and thinking it over a for a few months, and decided to look into it after I moved - and now I've finished moving, so now it's time to get going. I was gonna go with the 'hang around during a meeting and ask how to join' strategy since I know no in-the-flesh masons but do like doing things in person. The biggest issue right now is that I have 20 lodges within 15 miles, but none actually in town. So I guess my original plan of "just go and say hi" raises the question of where to do it. so I guess it might be better to just contact the grand lodge. They've got a nice little form to send a question, so I guess I'll just send off a "How do I join up and where should I do it?" to there. Dunno if the wife will go with me to anything, to be honest. She'd probably rather stay home with the baby and avoid anything that sounds like it might involve socializing. We'll see.
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May 6, 2015 03:44
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What City are you in? Maybe there is a lodge in your area that a fellow goon belongs to. I went in cold, like you plan to. I went to a lodge that had people I know attached to it, none of whom were members. When I walked up to one of the Brothers and asked "How do I become a Mason?" Other than a brief introduction, these were the first words I'd ever exchanged with a member of the Craft. The family's not necessary to have with you at first, and babies are hard to take anywhere. I just know that many of the activities of my lodge are family friendly by design. Kids eat free. Shrine clowns twisting balloon animals and such. One of the things that I've heard that makes sense, is "Be sure your wife is on board". Even if she's not much for socializing, you're not going to be able to enjoy it much if she looks at it like some old boring moose lodge (it's not). I had a girlfriend for a while who was a bit new agey, and though she came in and played piano for us on a couple of occasions, I was eventually forced to part with her because she had decided that I was just another old boy, in an old boy's club. It didn't work out, and I would hate to see someone who is actually married, who's wife doesn't support them have to chose between the lodge and their wife. Family comes first. Always.
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May 6, 2015 04:00
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Maynard, MA, if anyone is near there.
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May 6, 2015 04:07
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Go and say hi at a few, then go back to the one with the people you like most.
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May 6, 2015 05:48
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And in today's new about fake Masonry. The ‘Masonic Fraternal Police Department’ is not a real police department, police say.
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May 6, 2015 19:59
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Glorified Scrivener posted:And in today's new about fake Masonry. Man, that is just sad in a way.
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May 6, 2015 20:39
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I still don't get the whole Templar thing.
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May 6, 2015 21:13
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I still don't get the whole Templar thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Templar He's a gentleman criminal.
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May 6, 2015 21:16
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I still don't get the whole Templar thing. Go on
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May 6, 2015 21:27
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Sorry, I thought it was clear what I was getting at given the article you posted. Why do overly imaginative Freemasons like to claim that Masonry goes back to the days of the Templars and their stonemasons? That's the equivalent of carpenters claiming that they're the descendants of Jesus because Joseph was a carpenter, or something.
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May 6, 2015 23:26
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Sorry, I thought it was clear what I was getting at given the article you posted. Because it's fun, yo.
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May 6, 2015 23:46
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Sorry, I thought it was clear what I was getting at given the article you posted. Because it provides an interesting symbolic link that illuminates, esteems, and cautions us. Also because to some of them the ambiguous evidence (being generous with the word) from Scotland is deeply compelling. Myself, I wouldn't be surprised if a few elements of the Templars did make it into Freemasonry over the years, but we certainly aren't their literal descendents. Same way that we certainly are not the literal descendants of the builders of Atlantis, as some scholars propose, or of Egypt - but stories of both provide illuminating and thought-provoking morals.
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May 7, 2015 00:33
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_%28Freemasonry%29 "Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar, certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees." Makes sense when viewed in the light of other Masonic symbols. When I asked, I was told that members of the York Rite are referred to as Masonic Templars, and that actual Poor Knights of Christ live in Israel and take oaths of celibacy. I do no belong to any appendant bodies myself, since leaving Eastern Star, so whatever I say is second hand more or less. The Templars to my knowledge are a strictly Christian order, whatever form they take. Frankly, if I had to convert to Christianity to become a Mason, I'd have never done it. A quick google search brought up at least three non-masonic organizations that claim to be the modern knights templar. http://www.smotj.org/ http://www.osmth.org/ http://www.theknightstemplar.org/ E: This picture ended up in my post... huh. Whatever the case, it's another dinner placemat to my knowledge.
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May 7, 2015 01:49
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Turns out I will be acting as JD at our installation.
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May 7, 2015 09:07
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It turns out I won't, as Grand Lodge just revoked our right to assemble in our Temple, as of today, with our installation two days away. So instead, as acting tyler, the job of carrying off as much of our precious regalia and miscellanea as possible, and documenting the rest, was delegated to myself.
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May 7, 2015 12:05
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Loomer posted:It turns out I won't, as Grand Lodge just revoked our right to assemble in our Temple, as of today, with our installation two days away. So instead, as acting tyler, the job of carrying off as much of our precious regalia and miscellanea as possible, and documenting the rest, was delegated to myself. So, what did you guys do now?
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May 7, 2015 12:10
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Nothing, which is the crazy part. We've actually improved the problems - our building is old and needs work - and just had the council fellas in singing glowing praise for us. However, we're a country lodge in an old building and Grand Lodge has been wanting us to move to a new building - AKA, one that won't need any updates at all - for some time. We have enough money in our local accounts to pay for the work we need done, however, so this is just bizarre.
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May 7, 2015 12:18
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Solvent posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_%28Freemasonry%29 Us Knights Templar have the best outfits though, there's no denying that. 
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May 7, 2015 13:16
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I need to post some more about how deeply baffling this decision by our Grand Lodge is, and how sad it is. Because we haven't got a second fire exit (a matter we are actively involved in resolving, with approval of the city council) they've shut down the oldest temple in the entire region and one of the oldest in the country - a temple that's stood for over a century, that is structurally sound, and which requires only minor modifications which we, as a lodge, can afford with our own building funds and cosmetic maintenance. For the first time in over one hundred and forty years, this town - a town of over 50,000 people - no longer has a Masonic presence of any kind. It's gone from having a relatively healthy rural-regional lodge (37 active members, a healthy bank balance, and several new, young members) to no lodge literally overnight. We are advised to meet, for one month only - a temporary concession has been made solely for our now post-poned installation, no other meetings - at a smaller, rural temple some ways away. This temple is made entirely of wood, with only a single, very narrow staircase as its sole exit point. It, not ours, is a genuine fire hazard and tinder box. It is also a lovely old place, but very small and totally unsuited for the very large installation ritual parties and subsequent banquet. They did not consult the master of that lodge, either! Over fifty lodges and thirty officers were invited. We are expecting a large turnout. We have no way of contacting the majority of those we are expecting within the available timeframe. People will travel hours, even overnight, only to discover that we can no longer accomodate them in our ritual, feed them afterwards, and enjoy the rare privilege of a properly conducted, flawlessly executed installation ceremony - something they expect from us as some of the best ritualists left. I'm sitting here with our regalia and our lodge bible, acting as our tyler and guarding them with the due care and dignity they deserve while Grand Lodge has the locks on our Temple changed, and I despair for freemasonry in my region.
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May 8, 2015 04:26
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Hope you all aren't taking it lying down.
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May 8, 2015 06:02
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Sub Rosa posted:Hope you all aren't taking it lying down. Oh, we certainly aren't. Half the Lodge has been on the phone to Grand Lodge in protest, including the head of our building committee who I'm fairly sure may have actually singed a few ears on the other end, knowing him. Several members, including the W.M. Elect (a mason of 40+ years standing) and our D.C. (50+ years, and a widely respected ritualist in the area), are going to resign in protest if the matter isn't just a miscommunication as to our fire safety. The former DGIW is phoning up a storm to other former and current DG officers, and I've been set to the duty of examining our constitutions and Mackey's jurisprudence with a fine-toothed comb for anything that might be useful if we have to really fight over it.
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May 8, 2015 06:35
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Let us know if we can do anything to help, Brother.
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May 8, 2015 11:46
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I will, but I don't think there's much that can be done externally, and certainly not at this point. An extra kicker for me is that I was about to propose (with support already there) the establishment of a masonic library in one of our temple's spare rooms (we have three small spare rooms and a coat room, none in use, all of which we could readily adapt for other purposes) to be maintained and curated by myself or by a person appointed by the WM and filled with donations from the Brethren and myself. I have a pretty solid masonic private collection, most of which I was going to donate as the nucleus of the new library and many of the brethren have picked up books over the years. It was going to be a nice, low-cost way to make better use of our temple and restore some of its old glory and in the doing hopefully help keep new members from losing interest. A library pulled together by the Lodge is something everyone can look at and feel pride in, and that ability to feel pride in our craft is vital to its continuing existence. That's part of why I've made it an ongoing project to bring the rest of the Temple, not just the lodge room, into some small but significant use and to keep it in better order - it seemed appropriate as our acting tyler that I do so. For the same reason we don't wear tattered clothes or shorts and singlets to Lodge, we shouldn't let our Temple's available spaces be ignored! Unfortunately, if we lose the temple and meet at another, that won't be an option as they lack the spare rooms. The small temple we were told to use for our Installation needs every scrap of space already, while the larger, newer temples in neighbouring towns weren't built with spare spaces that aren't in use or rented out.
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May 8, 2015 16:13
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I believe Duncan would refer to this situation as "hosed up." I'm sorry to hear about all this, Loomer.
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May 9, 2015 14:54
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Sorry to hear Loomer, I build this one for you guys.   I know it is lame and has a couple of fatal flaws but eh.
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May 10, 2015 18:25
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